The war on Americans who use drugs...

It is, just like people choose to be addicted to smoking cigs, drinking and chewing tabacco
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Absurd. People don't choose to become addicted. No one EVER goes out and say, "Hey, I'll try this strange behavior altering drug because I want to get addicted to it". And tell me a crack baby born addicted to crack cocaine had "choice" and he's just getting what he deserves.

His mother's negligence isn't part of the deal. I'm talking about a 6 month premie infant. Where's HIS "choice"?

Prostitution is either choice of the prostitute, or slavery by means of force by a pimp...
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Unless of course, the prostitute does the nasty to feed her drug addiction. Whereupon it's no longer a choice but a physical craving so strong it can kill if it's denied.

The thing I'm trying to say is that the very first experimentation with drugs is a "choice". However, once one becomes addicted it's no longer possible to freely choose. The addiction rules supreme and absolute and there is NO OTHER option including going without food & water if necessary to feed the addiction.

And I noticed that the last premise hasn't been addressed. Namely that jails will be emptier if only those who abuse drugs are punished for it. That's the current state of the WOD now and the jails are still full of druggies.

Severian, you lie about owning guns out of fear of getting smart alecky remarks?

Really? (I'm seriously asking because I just can't get my head around this one.)
 
Rob

Sadly, yes. It's not just the comments. It's the looks, the new attitudes, the change it brings to some people. I'd rather just tell them what they want to hear and leave it at that. These are co-workers, slight acquaintances, and the like. My friends and family know. Those I care enough for, I'll actually get into a better discussion about guns with them. I guess it's not really lying, but just not telling the whole truth. :D (I know, an irrational rationalization).

The jails are filled with two-bit criminals: teenagers who get pulled over and the cops find a roach in the ashtray; small-time crack/meth/pot/coke-heads who get popped for doing something small and stupid. (most of the stuff is minor, not really major traffiking or distribution). The numbers are misleading. So if drugs were decriminalized, the jails would be less overcrowded, yes. In my opinion, the jails are filled with nobodies on minor drug charges while more important and DANGEROUS criminals are not imprisoned.

You can get life in prison for growing plants, but it seems that most murderers and rapists get a slap on the wrist (relatively, something like 2 or 3 decades).

I agree that drugs are a crutch that SOME people use and they are weaker because of it. But some people just want to catch a buzz. The same buzz one would get from an extended range session with a new gun.

Willie Nelson smoked pot and drank whiskey for 60+ years! The secret the longevity?:p

Severian, who no longer needs buzzes, but occasionally enjoys the juice of the barley
 
Rob, I have never hurt a single person while under the influence of any chemical. The only one I'm addicted to in the sense that my mood changes when I'm without it is caffiene (and capsaicin but being a pepperhead is rarely considered an addiction :p). I, and many people I know, have never hurt a soul because of a mind altering chemical, legal or otherwise. Why should I be punished?

Many people are hurt by fast cars. Should they be banned as well? Limit everyone to 65? You'll excuse me if I prefer to avoid any form of fascism and drug prohibition certainly qualifies.

Addiction typically requires a choice. I know many addicts of many chemicals, the common factor between every single one is that they chose to try a drug. Not a single one had it forced on him or her. One who's family is chock full of alcoholics and evidence that she's genetically prone toward addiction decided to start drinking anyways. Made a choice, it was never forced. I know there are a few notable and serious exceptions and for that I believe the parties responsible should face severe punishments but not all crack babies become addicts.

I made a choice to start using the legal drugs that I enjoy. I also made a choice to avoid trying chemicals that I feel pose a risk of addiction. I avoid Vicodin and Morphine for that very reason, prefering a powerul pain reliever that has no physically addicting properties (mentally addicting, on the other hand, can and does exist with virtually everything, from drugs, guns, music, sex, food, you name it). I have also never made the choice to cause harm to anyone while under the influence of anything.

What have I done wrong that I should be imprisoned for?
 
Absurd. People don't choose to become addicted. No one EVER goes out and say, "Hey, I'll try this strange behavior altering drug because I want to get addicted to it".
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Not in so many words, of course not. However, it's not exactly hidden knowledge that drugs, legal or otherwise, are addictive. People who try them know the dangers, and either accept those dangers or dismiss them. Those who dismiss the hazards tend to kill themselves off, as they've always done. They did it when drugs were legal, and they do it now. Those who accept the risks, well, that's their own responsibility.

Please, don't even start about the crack babies. Heavy drugs are illegal now, right? And we have crack babies now, right? So there's no loss on that score in relegalization. It would be a wash at worst, and if mom can get medical help instead of being slammed into prison for 10 years, so much the better.

Rob, didn't you learn anything from our previous experiment in social engineering through legislation? Prohibition of ANYTHING simply does not work. Never has, never will, and your personal dislike of what's prohibited doesn't change human nature.
 
eh, "probable" doesnt mean jack. all that means is the coroner couldnt prove the cause of death. the guys just bein used as an example for all the anti-marijuana crowds.

of course there are people that have died due to smoking marijuana. same can be said for eating cheese and red meat, drinking a 6 pack a day, or smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. if the man smoked 6 joints a day, for 11 years he is not going to "OD" on weed. his ticker probably gave out from incredibly high blood pressure from all that smokin.
 
Well, I have the solution to the whole debate.

Outlaw illegal drugs, that should work right?

I mean, if we outlaw these drugs then there wouldn't be a demand for them, no more crack babies, no one using "gateway" drugs, and because it's the law, everyone will obey it.

I mean, it is the law isn't it.

We should outlaw tobacco as well as alcohol also. I mean, once it's made illegal then everyone will obey the law and that will be the end of the problem.

Right.

Wayne
 
"I believe guns have a negative social stigma attached. I think the majority of people don't like guns and view them negatively."

With all due respect, I think you're wrong about that. In the US, about half the people *own* guns, and many of the rest don't have any strong feelings one way or the other. My guess is that you have gotten this impression about people's views on guns from the overwhelmingly anti-gun press. The press is, in general, actively *trying* to make gun owners look and feel like a bunch of paranoid, bloodthirsty nuts.

Tim
 
I've known people who messed up their lives with drugs. Some are relatives. Others are people I've helped in volunteer work. I have no illusions about drug abuse being "victimless."

At the same time, prohibition has done little or nothing to help these people that I know. It has, however, been a boon to organized crime. If we ended the drug war, Afghan warlords would go broke. South American guerrilla armies would run out of weaponry. Street gangs would still exist, of course, but they wouldn't be nearly as attractive to kids without the glamor of drug money. So their numbers would dwindle. And Mafia thugs would suffer a severe fall in their standard of living.

And I don't know of any problem that gets better if you just shove it into a violent underground. I don't know of any self destructive behavior that becomes less serious if it can only be pursued by paying lots of money to violent people.

While drug abuse is far from victimless, not all use is abuse. I know people will freak out about that statement, but most alcohol use is recreational. At the same time, alcohol abuse has destroyed a lot of families.

And most Americans start their days with a low, legal dose of an addictive stimulant grown in third world countries. I'm referring to coffee, of course, and it is VERY addictive (I've suffered withdrawals when I've tried to stop). Yet low doses purchased from reputable stores don't cause any sort of social pathology.

The legal sale of safe doses of currently illegal drugs in clean establishments would alleviate many of the social pathologies assocaited with drug use, while bankrupting criminals. In a week, you'd see Afghan warlords at the freeway off ramp with "Will work for food" signs. (OK, not literally, but the image is a fun one.)

Final thought: The most successful drug rehab programs are not run by the government. They are 12 step programs, run by the world's greatest experts on addiction and rehab: Those who have been there themselves. It's insane to think that we can arrest our way out of this problem, when the most successful solutions are purely private and voluntary.
 
Russ You certainly offer this as an example..

..as a joke.

Lee Maisey smoked six cannabis cigarettes a day for 11 years, an inquest heard. His death, which was registered as having been caused by cannabis toxicity, led to new warnings about the drug, which is due to be reclassified this month as a less dangerous one.

"This type of death is extremely rare," Prof John Henry, a toxicologist at Imperial College, London, said after the inquest at Haverfordwest, west Wales.

"I have not seen anything like this before. It corrects the argument that cannabis cannot kill anybody."

The inquest heard that Mr Maisey had complained of a headache on Aug 22 last year. Next morning he was found dead at the house he shared with a friend, Jeffrey Saunders, in Summerhill, Pembrokeshire.

Michael Howells, the Pembrokeshire coroner, said Mr Maisey was free from disease and had not drunk alcohol for at least 48 hours. Post-mortem tests showed a high level of cannabinoids in his blood.

He recorded a verdict of death by misadventure because Mr Maisey had died while taking part in an illegal activity. The death led to a warning about the changing strength of cannabis, which is to be reduced to a Class C drug on Jan 29.

Dr Philip Guy, a lecturer in addictions at the University of Hull, said: "Cannabis is not the nice hippy drug it used to be. It has been experimented with to produce stronger varieties."

Dr Guy said that death was more likely if users ate the drug rather than smoked it. "I would not be surprised if in this case the deceased had ingested a fatal amount of cannabis."

Last autumn police issued a warning that big consignments of strong cannabis were being smuggled in from Africa. On Jan 29, cannabis will be reclassified from a class B to a class C drug.

The shadow home secretary, David Davis, said last night: "This highlights what we have been saying about the effects of cannabis all along. When will people wake up to the fact that cannabis can be a harmful drug?(LM*O)

"By reclassifying the drug David Blunkett has shown he has lost the war on drugs. In my eyes, it's nothing more than an admission of failure."

Tristan Millington-Drake, the chief executive of the Chemical Dependency Centre, a charity that provides treatment for people with drug problems, said: "We have always taken the view that cannabis is an addictive drug, unlike the pedlars who try to persuade us that it is harmless. The Government's decision to reclassify cannabis is a mistake."
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I think it is apparent what the point of this article and possibly the finding of the coroner is.

Lets take a look at the stastics on aspirin toxicity.:rolleyes:

If this didn't involve a persons death it would be hilarious, as it is it is a joke.
 
Let me start by stating that I think that the "War on Drugs" is one of the most monstrous policies the United States govenrnment has ever enforced.

The "War on drugs" has created the most profitable black market in history, funding organized criminals the world over from the punk gangs in every major US city to highly organized international criminal organizations, and even terrorist groups such as Al Qaida.
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SOPHISTRY!

90% of incest and sexual assaults on children are committed under the influence of a chemical. Lesbian/homosexuality may merely be the brain over correcting against these psychologically abhorrent events in adolescence. The child may be so traumatized to the sexual assault that their brains over compensate and thus homosexuality materializes in adulthood. Drugs may be the root cause of this social problem.

You have given thought to the cost of the war against drugs but no thought to the cost of drug abuse. Just thought I would educate you about one of the costs of drug abuse in the paragrapgh above.
 
WOW

I'm not an illegal drug user, I do have a neat single malt once in a while.

Blaming child molestation and homosexuality on drugs is a little out there for me.
 
WOW

I'm not an illegal drug user, I do have a neat single malt once in a while.

Blaming child molestation and homosexuality on drugs is a little out there for me
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end quote

I attended college prior to Political Correctness. For instance we were allowed to smoke in Economics classes back then. Try that now.

The statement linking drugs - incest- homosexuality is from a single course I took in 1975. I never saw this mentioned anywhere ever again. Homosexuality is politically protected now and rational scientific data is no longer allowed. I'm sure these old pre-political correctness textbooks lie collecting dust in basement libraries on campuses all over the country but scholars nowadays tend to all tow the same line. Tenure isnt awarded for truth. Tenure is awarded for aggreeing with current political propaganda.
 
Sulaco2:
State of Maine reported this month that deaths from drug OD's was higher then the deaths recorded for auto accidents!! Ya we need legalized drugs. (Scarcasm off)
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So what of it?

People die all the time from all kinds of things, most of them by things they have little or no control of. Why should I cry over someone who killed themselves by thier own actions? Why should the govenment decide what people can and cannot do to thier own bodies, and why should my tax dollars go be used by the government to enforce that?

IMO its better that those people ODed themselves than them being locked up in prison and the rest of us having to pay for them.
 
Zen900:
90% of incest and sexual assaults on children are committed under the influence of a chemical. Lesbian/homosexuality may merely be the brain over correcting against these psychologically abhorrent events in adolescence. The child may be so traumatized to the sexual assault that their brains over compensate and thus homosexuality materializes in adulthood. Drugs may be the root cause of this social problem.

You have given thought to the cost of the war against drugs but no thought to the cost of drug abuse. Just thought I would educate you about one of the costs of drug abuse in the paragrapgh above.
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86.3% of uncited statistics are made up on the spot.

Seems to me like you are now trying to brand all drug users as homos and child molestors.

I dont doubt that probably most abuse happens under the influence of a drug, however I think the most likely drug that it happens under is alcohol.

Yeah, lets try prohibition again. :rolleyes:
 
They are 12 step programs, run by the world's greatest experts on addiction and rehab: Those who have been there themselves.
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Eh, while I'm sure some 12 step programs have helped many people, I worry abou the ones that start off with "I am powerless against my addiction and only god can help me." I used to think AA was a good organization before I met people that went through it. These days I see it for what it is, a thinly veiled conversion cult that replaces one addiction with another.

90% of incest and sexual assaults on children are committed under the influence of a chemical. Lesbian/homosexuality may merely be the brain over correcting against these psychologically abhorrent events in adolescence. The child may be so traumatized to the sexual assault that their brains over compensate and thus homosexuality materializes in adulthood. Drugs may be the root cause of this social problem.

You have given thought to the cost of the war against drugs but no thought to the cost of drug abuse. Just thought I would educate you about one of the costs of drug abuse in the paragrapgh above.
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Hard to educate people on things when you simply make stuff up. :rolleyes: So this comes from a single class you took thirty years ago? Not a single one of the many gay friends I have were ever molested. Some feel they were born as they were, others feel it was their upbringing but not a single one has ever cited drug abuse and sexual assault as the reasons.

This isn't an example of political incorrectness, it's an example of bigotry.
 
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