The "UPS STORE" is not #1 in customer service

Funny how many people feel it is okay to resort to dishonesty when it suits their purposes, but otherwise will claim honest is part of being an upstanding citizen.

If you are going to lie about the contents, then insurance is pretty pointless.
 
Note to all (Including Moderators):

This was originally posted in the BLACK POWDER AND REPLICA forum and was germane to BLACK POWDER REPLICAS that are NOT FIREARMS AS DEFINED BY THE GCA.

This makes many of the comments on the thread prior to it being moved NO LONGER RELEVENT. This includes the comments that I made.

Moving it was, in my humble opinion, poorly thought out by the moderators due to the HUGE difference in the laws regarding shipping black powder replicas v/s modern firearms.


Willie


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For starters, it would help to be certain that your actions are legal. I'm not certain how or if UPS rules apply to black powder replicas, but I DO know that the same Federal law that says handguns cannot be shipped USPS and must be shipped by common carrier also stipulates explicitly that the carrier must be informed that the package contains a firearm.


They are legal, and this is old news.

Black powder replicas are NOT firearms as defined by federal law, and are not restricted from shipping by anyone, including the USPS. In fact, among black powder enthusiasts, shipping by flat rate box from the post office is the preferred method. No notification is required, because although it may LOOK like a firearm, it is not. There is thread after thread on this in the cowboy action and black powder forum.


Willie

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"This was originally posted in the BLACK POWDER AND REPLICA forum and was germane to BLACK POWDER REPLICAS that are NOT FIREARMS AS DEFINED BY THE GCA."

That is true, but the subject of this thread -- shipment of guns -- is of interesting to more than just black powder shooters as it goes towards issues that we all may have when trying to ship any kind of gun (including air or gas powered guns) through independent/contracted shipping stores. It's pretty evident that, no matter what the law says as to their status, that the shipping stores are focusing only on the fact that these are guns.

However, to address your concern, the redirect link in the Black Powder forum has been made permanent, instead of the normal 1 week duration.

"This makes many of the comments on the thread prior to it being moved NO LONGER RELEVENT. This includes the comments that I made."

I would say that that is simply not the case.


"Moving it was, in my humble opinion, poorly thought out by the moderators due to the HUGE difference in the laws regarding shipping black powder replicas v/s modern firearms."

Your opinion is noted.
 
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To be completely honest, I'd be very scared to ever ship anything. I've had several packages delivered to me, some drivers claim they couldn't find my house. One time I watched the guy park, get out of the truck, then back in, and drive off while I was outside. He even waved. Had to drive an hour to the nearest hub to pick my package up. I've also had stuff literally thrown on the concrete porch. I've also worked in Nashville FedEx hub, when I worked there we were the fastest hub. I was always worried about stuff. And I stacked everything as perfect as it could get. I know nothing was ever broke by me. But I worked with guys that would stand at the door of the trailer and throw stuff to the front. Packages would be all the way to the back but only be piled up 2 or 3 feet and he'd just throw them in there. So, I'm always very weary of ordering anything. I know there's too many idiots. There's not enough bubble wrap.
 
"However, to address your concern, the redirect link in the Black Powder forum has been made permanent, instead of the normal 1 week duration"



Mike,

My concern is that the reply I posted to the Black Powder area regarding not disclosing contents is appropriate there, and is suggesting breaking the law if read in another forum where there is no realization of the change in context.

I do not want to be seen as suggesting any illegality in shipping MODERN firearms by common carrier, and what I suggested is perfectly legal when applied to black powder "guns". When placed in a black powder forum, and discussing the OP's particular replica, the context was clear. Once the thread was moved here the context was no longer clear at all and places my earlier reply in a bad light.


Regards,


Willie

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Uhm... As I understand the law, there is no requirement that the shipper be notified that the package contains a firearm, nor is the package to be identified as containing a firearm.

UPS and FedEx internal policies are that the package have an "adult signature required" label (but apparently that doesn't extend to their delivery people, who in my experience don't often worry about that nicety), must be shipped next day, and that you must verbally notify the clerk that you're shipping a firearm.

But again, those are the shipper's internal policies, NOT Federal law.
 
Frank Ettin has indicated in separate threads that failure to notify a common carrier of a "firearm" actually is a violation of the law, IIRC, Mike.
 
Mike & MLeake,

I believe y'all are both right about notification. It depends on the recipient.

Here's what the law says, from 27 CFR § 478.31:
Delivery by common or contract carrier. (a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped
Click to expand...
(emphasis mine)

IOW shipments to a FFL are exempt from the notification requirement because the recipient is "a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector".

[EDIT] Paragraph deleted, need to do some more research...

Please note:
  • None of this applies to BP and antique guns because they are not "firearms" under federal law.
  • If you misrepresent or fail to report what a package contains, a common carrier may refuse to honor shipment insurance, regardless of what federal firearm transfer law says. Insurance is a different ballgame entirely.
Mandatory disclaimer: I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV. ;) This is not official legal advice. Caveat emptor and YMMV.
 
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Ok, as I read that, it seems to say to me that if you are shipping to one of those recipients you do not have to notify.

But... It also seems to me that shipping a firearm to ano unlicensed recipient is illegal, so the notification issue is a bit moot.

A criminal is not going to announce a shipment of a fire arm in any event and he is not required to do so per supreme court findings on fifth amendment grounds.

Regardless, a number of staff have discussed this and we all feel that this forum is the proper place for this discussion.
 
Returned a fire arm to Ruger. They sent me a UPS shipping lable and told me do not take it to a UPS Store, take it ONLY to a UPS Customer Service Center.

UPS Stores are the worst of the worst. Always staffed with three to six empty headed people who could not even get hired at McDonalds who will gladly sell you a cardboard box for $5.00 and ask if you need any shipping supplies.

Shipping supplies, well yes, how about competent personnel?
 
They sent me a UPS shipping lable and told me do not take it to a UPS Store, take it ONLY to a UPS Customer Service Center... UPS Stores are the worst of the worst. Always staffed with three to six empty headed people...
Click to expand...
AFAIK UPS does not allow "The UPS Store" locations to handle firearms, presumably because they are not directly controlled by UPS; the stores are franchises of Mail Boxes Etc., and the hiring and supervision of the employees is handled by the franchisee.

Since UPS has no way to directly supervise the way the stores are run, IMHO it's understandable why they don't want the aforementioned empty-headed people accepting gun shipments.

Personally, I have also generally been very unimpressed by The UPS Store, and IMHO they give customers a bad impression of the UPS brand, but UPS's marketing department didn't ask me. :rolleyes:
 
It is not federal law to notify a common carrier you are shipping a handgun unless you are sending it to a non FFL.

See last paragraph in the letter from the ATF below:

Jim
BATF20-20shipper20notification.jpg
 
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pghrich

what state are you in? you sound like you were at the same store as me and I am talking about the girl and then guy from the back and the 'go to the hub' bit...everything you mentioned.

anyways, i go to fedex. ups rubbed me the wrong way specifically because the guy told me to go to another ups location and that he didn't want to ship it. it seemed personal...not ups policy. usps NO but UPS and FedEx are supposed to be YES. fedex never had an issue
 
ATF

as for notifying them...no idea. I always let someone know I have an unloaded firearm being shipped without any ammo. mailing a bottle of wine around Christmas time with the notification thingee gets tricky
 
Mike Irwin and laytonj1, you are probably correct in most cases.

OTOH, blanket statements are dangerous things. Here is one example where I think you would both be wrong:

I can ship a firearm to myself in another state. For instance, I could ship to myself, courtesy of my parents, at their house prior to flying down for a visit.

They could legally receive the firearm. They could not legally open the package. They are not Federal licensees.

Meanwhile, in a more general sense, non-notification might not get you in legal trouble (assuming shipping to an FFL), but would probably invalidate any shipping insurance should mishap occur.
 
OTOH, blanket statements are dangerous things. Here is one example where I think you would both be wrong:
Click to expand...
How's that? In this case the law does require you to notify the carrier or it would be illegal.
but would probably invalidate any shipping insurance should mishap occur
Click to expand...
Very true. But my point was the law does not require it, only the shippers own policy.

Jim
 
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