The tempest between Europe and the Middle East

[shootinstudent]

We are in a war with Islam.

I'm an American. There's no "we" in religious hatred here, right? Maybe you are in a war with Islam, but you can count me out of that one. I'll gladly refrain from advocating attacks on people who don't individually attack me

Do I need to point out the logical fallacy in that inference, or can you look it up yourself?

So simple, so well put...yet beyond the grasp of so many.

 

[gc70]

I'm an American. There's no "we" in religious hatred here, right? Maybe you are in a war with Islam, but you can count me out of that one. I'll gladly refrain from advocating attacks on people who don't individually attack me

"We" don't have to hate or attack them; as long as they hate and attack us, then "We are at war with Islam" - by their choice rather than ours.

 

[TacFan]

WOW ! Looking at the picture of the muslims in London, it makes me wonder what they're doing in Europe in they hate them so much Hypocrites in my opinion

 

[shootinstudent]

"We" don't have to hate or attack them; as long as they hate and attack us, then "We are at war with Islam" - by their choice rather than ours.

Here is the point: "they" are not all one person, so just like GHT doesn't speak for me or for all Americans, the radicals in the streets don't get to speak for all Muslims.

I always thought the American thing to do was to judge people individually for their choices, not to take what some other person did and say "because you have a name that comes from the same language as his, you're guilty of what that other guy did."

 

[gc70]

Here is the point: "they" are not all one person, so just like GHT doesn't speak for me or for all Americans, the radicals in the streets don't get to speak for all Muslims.

"They" may be few or legion, but "they" are indeed at war with "us."

I understand you concern about the many being labelled rather than just the few, but until someone provides a list of the names of the 7,395 (or whatever number) Muslim fundamentalist terrorists and their advocates and supporters, most people will simply use a convenient label like "Muslim" or "Islam" to describe them.

 

[shootinstudent]

I understand you concern about the many being labelled rather than just the few, but until someone provides a list of the names of the 7,395 (or whatever number) Muslim fundamentalist terrorists and their advocates and supporters, most people will simply use a convenient label like "Muslim" or "Islam" to describe them.

Well, then I guess we can use a convenient label like "American" to speak for serial killers and drug abusers.

I mean, until someone provides a list of all drug abusers in North America and their countries of origin, let's just say "We have declared war on Americans" as shorthand for declaring war on individual drug abuse. After all, most drugs consumed in North America are consumed in the US.

See the problem?

 

[gc70]

I mean, until someone provides a list of all drug abusers in North America and their countries of origin, let's just say "We have declared war on Americans" as shorthand for declaring war on individual drug abuse.

No, I don't see the problem, because that is a fairly accurate description. When I go to the local WalMart to buy Sudafed and have to present ID and get the medicine doled out in government-dictated quantities, then it is absolutely true that someone has "declared war on Americans" in relation to illegal drug use.

[good logical retort, but you picked the wrong topic to bother me]

 

[Marko Kloos]

I understand you concern about the many being labelled rather than just the few, but until someone provides a list of the names of the 7,395 (or whatever number) Muslim fundamentalist terrorists and their advocates and supporters, most people will simply use a convenient label like "Muslim" or "Islam" to describe them.

Then most people are not able to distinguish between the terms "few", "some", and "all". I don't care whether that inability is induced by religious bias, lack of education, willingness to feel instead of think, or insufficient education in logic and reasoning skills, it's plain wrong. We despise it when the anti-gun crowd lumps us in with school shooters and drive-by gangbangers, so why is it OK to do it to someone else?

After all, 100% of school shootings, and 100% of firearms homicides in this country are committed by gun owners. If anything, the Brady bunch has more of a case when they lump us in with the bad apples in our midst, since the violent extremists constitute a fraction of a tenth of a percent of the world's Muslims.

 

[gc70]

Then most people are not able to distinguish between the terms "few", "some", and "all". I don't care whether that inability is induced by religious bias, lack of education, willingness to feel instead of think, or insufficient education in logic and reasoning skills, it's plain wrong. We despise it when the anti-gun crowd lumps us in with school shooters and drive-by gangbangers, so why is it OK to do it to someone else?

I didn't say it was okay to generalize, but it is a fact of human nature. Basically, a person can try to recognize generalizations or be ticked off all the time; I often choose to let a generalization pass when I recognize one.

(After all, 100% of school shootings, and 100% of firearms homicides in this country are committed by gun owners.)

If you want to be precise, that would be "gun users" rather than "gun owners."

 

[Eghad]

"We are at war with Islam"

Are you going to war with the 5.5 million in America first or the 32 million in Europe?

 

[carbiner]

I still don't see muslums out protesting against these violent Islamofacists. Their message is always the same, accept our religion or we'll kill you! To those who are stuck on thinking it's only a few causing the problems, I say they sure kill alot of people and start alot of wars and riots.

Muslums in America seem withdrawn from American culture???

They fall short of convincing this American that their here because they love the American way of life.

 

[alan]

Couple of points.

Years ago, in San Francisco, I worked with an Iranian engineer, nice man, who was Muslim. He used to kid me about my eating bacon and eggs for breakfast, and I kidded him about him having his snoot in a vodka bottle a large part of the time. When I asked, he allowed that his father leaned toward Scotch, and that he wasn't a good Muslim either.

Having said that, most Muslims are probably not religious fanatics, nor are they bomb throwers, at least I don't think so. There are some who are, just as there are some Christians, Jews and whatever else you care to name, that are simply no damned good for much of anything.

Respecting those Muslims nowadays running amock re these cartoons, my characterization, perhaps shared by others, possibly someone might offer those so offended some simple mirrors, with which they could closely examine themselves, seeing what others see. The exercise, if undertaken, I suspect it would not be, might prove educational. It could also prove somewhat painful, however such small pain would not likely prove fatal.

As to the US, waging war on Muslims, we hear about that too, correct me if I'm wrong but in this country these days, the proportion of Muslims in the population has never been greater, and there are more Muslim schools and places of worship nowadays than ever before.

Seems like one hell of a way to run a war.

 

[Waitone]

One lesson Europe may have just learned is the practice of accepting large numbers of immigrants then doing nothing to ensure integration into the host country's society is not a really good idea. Europe may have also learned that large numbers of unassimilated immigrants is not a good idea also.

Wonder if our ruling elites will go to school on Europe's mistakes. Naaaah!

 

[Chris Phelps]

Isn't "behead" a threat? When is it no longer considered freedom of speech? I say arm about 10 people with SAW249s and rip the crowd down. Stop the problem at its source. I'd say the same thing if it was a bunch of people from Indiana offering to behead someone over a joke about god, so don't start thinking im racial.

 

[22-rimfire]

Good point Waitone. I believe moderate Muslims do not make a stand because of fear. We in the US are used to free speech, but if you believed that your speaking out would result in harm to you or your family, most keep quiet. If the radical Islam theology spreads, eventually people will have to make a stand or accept the Muslim way.

There are many examples in history of people making a stand and being marked for death. The easiest example is our reactionary forefathers who wanted the colonies to be a nation separate from England. We need to think about just how important "our way of life" is. (What is the definition of 'is'?) Moderate Muslims will eventually need to choose and make a stand to their betterment or the opposite. Choose they must. For now, they can straddle the fence and hope that the problem just goes away.

 

[Poodleshooter]

since the violent extremists constitute a fraction of a tenth of a percent of the world's Muslims.

Well, except for the Palestinian territories. I believe a majority of them voted in a Hamas government.
Oh, and the 62% of Iranian voters who voted for Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in the 2nd round voting. I guess they fall in there,too,unless we assume that this guy is defying his electorate.
The one great thing about democracy in the middle east, is that it will tell us who are enemies really are,based on who they vote for.
"Terrorists" may still constitute a minority of world Islam,but there sure are a lot of folks who give them shelter,food, money and just plain tacit support until we invade their countries and force them to throw the extremists out. Moderate Islam sure doesn't seem to be too proactive about throwing their hardliners out- other than in Iraq of course.
It's hard not to preach crusade when the news is covered with folks asking for jihad.

 

[shootinstudent]

"Terrorists" may still constitute a minority of world Islam,but there sure are a lot of folks who give them shelter,food, money and just plain tacit support until we invade their countries and force them to throw the extremists out. Moderate Islam sure doesn't seem to be too proactive about throwing their hardliners out- other than in Iraq of course.
It's hard not to preach crusade when the news is covered with folks asking for jihad.

Oversimplifying the problems there to "they vote for radicals because they like radicals" is a part of the reason why no effective measures against terror-sponsoring groups are being taken.

The Palestinians were under secularists who did nothing but steal, make fake negotiations for peace, and not much more. All during this time, Israeli troops occupied their neighborhoods and did a lot of heavy fighting, including using F16's to kill single terrorists. So when an election comes up and there are only two choices, Hamas and the proven thieves in Fatah, it should be no surprise whatsoever that the Palestinians choose the religious radicals. Iran's elections are a joke...the candidates are pre-selected by the Mullahs. As for Iraq, anyone who thinks an Islamic government sympathetic to Iran is not coming there is dreaming.

Maybe if the Moderate groups in Islam were receiving billions and billions of oil dollars like the Saudis and Kuwaitis do, the story might be different. But that hasn't happened, and so now we have people with lots of financial backing fueling the protests and doing everything they can to spread religious hatred in the name of their fascist style agenda.

By reacting to these cartoon protests with calls for "Crusade", you are playing exactly their game. The terrorists want the rest of the Muslim world to be lumped in with them, and to have no option but to align with extremists in order to avoid persecution. Why would you want to do something that the terrorists think is a good idea?

 

[Poodleshooter]

The Palestinians were under secularists who did nothing but steal, make fake negotiations for peace, and not much more. All during this time, Israeli troops occupied their neighborhoods and did a lot of heavy fighting, including using F16's to kill single terrorists. So when an election comes up and there are only two choices, Hamas and the proven thieves in Fatah, it should be no surprise whatsoever that the Palestinians choose the religious radicals.

True,but the evil end is still the same. I don't really care why. Hitler may have been voted in for prosperity, but that didn't help jewish europeans much.

Iran's elections are a joke...the candidates are pre-selected by the Mullahs. As for Iraq, anyone who thinks an Islamic government sympathetic to Iran is not coming there is dreaming.

The Guardian Council does eliminate candidates,however a large proportion of voters still turn out to elect a man who wants to commit genocide. Is this supposed to make me feel better?

Maybe if the Moderate groups in Islam were receiving billions and billions of oil dollars like the Saudis and Kuwaitis do, the story might be different. But that hasn't happened, and so now we have people with lots of financial backing fueling the protests and doing everything they can to spread religious hatred in the name of their fascist style agenda.

Where is all of that money supporting radical Islam coming from anyway.... It's not all oil profits. Passing the collection plate works in the middle east,just as it does at the local church,and the local PAC meeting. Sending donations is an excellent covert way to support what you don't have the courage to come out in support for face to face. I contend that moderate Islam (the rank and file of the Islamic world) uses donations to appease their own consciences and support the jihad that their faith demands.

Why would you want to do something that the terrorists think is a good idea?

Because I think that in a slug-fest of a fight, the west can win. Radical Islam's bet is based on their perception of the moral ambiguity and division of the west as a weakness. It's a nasty side effect of our freedom in reality,but I don't think it's a game loser if we are threatened enough to unify. So far that hasn't happened due to radical Islam's relative incompetence.

 

[shootinstudent]

I don't really care why.

If you do not understand why, you can't combat the problem. You can easily make it worse, however, by reacting in ways that exacerbate the underlying problems which you failed to understand by taking an "I don't care why" approach.

a large proportion of voters still turn out to elect a man who wants to commit genocide. Is this supposed to make me feel better?

Yes, the regime is aggressive and crazy. But genocide is not part of the party platform. I'm sorry, but this accusation gets hurled all the time and it is demonstrably false. Religious freedom for Jews is written into Iran's constitution, and to the extent they face oppression in Iran, it is the same oppression faced by all Iranians.

Sending donations is an excellent covert way to support what you don't have the courage to come out in support for face to face. I contend that moderate Islam (the rank and file of the Islamic world) uses donations to appease their own consciences and support the jihad that their faith demands.

Well, that contention would be wrong. For one, most of the money comes from the middle east nations like Saudi Arabia and Iran. That means oil. The Saudis have no other real business; the Iranians have no other real business that generates export levels of cash due to sanctions.

If the "rank and file" of the Islamic world supported military jihad and believed that their faith required support for these movements, there wouldn't be any debate because the entire middle east would long ago have become a united string of religious governments.

Because I think that in a slug-fest of a fight, the west can win. Radical Islam's bet is based on their perception of the moral ambiguity and division of the west as a weakness. It's a nasty side effect of our freedom in reality,but I don't think it's a game loser if we are threatened enough to unify. So far that hasn't happened due to radical Islam's relative incompetence.

This is exactly what the radicals would like you to believe. Who is going to be the other side of this "slug fest"? That's right, "all Muslims" including the moderates who you believe are responsible for terror funding. That kind of violence will give the radicals the unity they desire (and that they currently do not have). The incompetence of the radical Islamist's movements is matched only by the incompetence out here in the west in understanding how they operate.

And that's why their political organization and strength is growing instead of deteriorating, despite two major wars and a policy of attacking terrorists on sight. The scale of riots over these cartoons are further evidence of that, and until western powers can go after the root causes of radical strength, this is only going to get worse.

 

[JR47]

The cartoons appeared in October, 2005. It's now February, 2006. There is something wrong here. At any other time, the Muslims of the Middle East are quite immediate in their reactions. What happened? There are several articles that state that some of the cartoons actually originated with European Mullahs, in communications between themselves.

Did it take the "spontaneous outpouring of indignation" nearly four months to gather enough Danish flags to burn? There are also numerous reports of Islamic clerics traveling and fomenting trouble. Is this a religion of peace? I think not.

As to the idea that most Muslims in America are unused to our Freedom of Speech, that's absurd. Many of America's muslim population has been here for generations. Moreover, many are converted members, who have been in America all of their lives.

The Muslim religion is quite plain that infidels are to be destroyed. They can convert to the muslim faith, or they can die. Making excuses for members of that religion obscures the reality, and adds nothing positive to the problem. Less than 1% are extremists, eh? Let's see, there are supposedly one plus billion muslims, so..........that's about 10,000,000. I'd have to say that the number handily exceeds the size of the world's militaries. They have no hesitation about killing women and children, the sick, or any moral ehtics regarding what they use to kill with.

While it may not be PC, the Muslim Religion is a cult of death to anyone outside of it. I wonder just how many are truly "afraid" to speak out, and how many are just waiting to see which way the winds blow. Muslims constantly lump everyone outside of their religion into "infidels", why wouldn't it be fair to return the favor?

If the rights of the Muslim have been somehow wronged by such things as politically incorrect cartoons, so be it. The response is to burn and destroy, and threaten death. I suppose that the next time Uncle Sam is burned in effigy, it would be correct for Americans to burn and destroy the homes, mosques, and businesses of Muslims? Perhaps we should dance in the streets if a gang-banger does a drive-by on a group of children leaving religious instruction at the mosque? How can we "understand" their pain? Would not all Americans be blamed by the muslim world?

The biggest problem we have is that we're just a little too interested in "why". Accordingly, we will have lots of people who tell us that "we just don't understand". They offer convoluted reasoning that allows for the "miniscule fraction" of muslims who maim and kill, but ascribes no fault towards the majority of muslims who offer tacit support through their silence.

The money to fund some of this terrorism came from here, from those supposedly peaceable muslims. How many Al-Queda front organizations were discovered in the United States immediately after 9/11? They were funneling money to the various Arab Fanatic movements. I'm certain that the Aryan Nation wasn't a big supporter.

As for the Palestinians, they received what they deserved from Arafat and Company. The new "Hamas" did nothing but recruit martyrs from them during that entire time. Now, in light of a chance to actually have a representative type of government, they manipulated, as did Arafat, the Palestinian people into legitimizing a terrorist organization as a government. That's REALLY going to make people dig deep to help them. Again, they got what they deserve.:barf: