The Tactical Levergun?

N

Nightcrawler

New member
Police use pump shotguns. So do many other security and paramilitary groups. They're rugged, reliable, and inexpensive. They HAVE autoloading shotguns out there, but the pump, even now in the 21st century, reigns supreme.

So. Now that we've determined that the pump action is fast enough even for close quarters battle (as SWAT teams use the pump benelli; those on smaller budgets use the mossberg) let us look at the levergun. As rifle actions go, it is very fast. You can knock out shots in a lever rifle at an impressive rate, compared to a bolt gun.

An interesting feature of the typical levergun is that you can pop extra rounds in as you go, leaving the weapon in ready-to-fire condition as you do so, like a shotgun.

So. I'm willing to suggest that a good trunk gun for police patrol cars would be a lever action .30-30, with a synthetic stock. Think about it.

Remember that nasty bank robbery in Kali a few years back? If the cops were better shots, they could've put a round in the guy's head early on and ended it. But, despite the failure of their rounds to penetrate his full body armor, they kept shooting. Swell.

One trained rifleman with a Marlin 336 .30-30 could've ended the whole mess before all those shots were fired.

Many police today are getting semiauto rifles, in .223 or .308 as trunk guns. This is fine, but generally, those are expensive, (seen the price of an AR or a good FAL lately?) and smaller departments may not be able to afford them. Hell, HK sells its MP5 magazines at about fifty bucks a piece!

I think money could be saved on a simple, rugged .30-30 in the patrol car. I mean, you can buy two Winchester 94s for the price of ONE DSA FAL. And the world will likely age another 200 years before they stop making .30-30 ammunition.

Just some thoughts. I'm not saying the lever rifle would be ideal for all situations, but for typical patrol car needs, it would be plenty sufficient. They're easy to use, easy to train on, and inexpensive.
 
swat teams and the like use pumps for a couple of reasons. 1 is to facilitate the use of special purpose ammunition like doorbusters, beanbags, cs, ect and the ability to load the in or out w/o firing the gun. the other reason is similar and that is to utilize low recoil buckshot or slugs reliably (see reliably, i dont want to get flamed by all those M1 owners).
secondly the kalifornia police dept's that are carrying m16's because of the hollywood bank ordeal did not buy them. thay were given to the dept.'s by the government. (probably to be used at a later date against gun owners in a massive civil disturbance caused by yet another constitutional violation)but i digress...

there was a great article last year in a G&W of LE issue w/ regards to a tactical guide gun.
fiberstocked 1895G w/ ching sling harris bipod and leupold/gilmore reddot sight. immpressive idea all be it impractical as a general issue item. overpenatration being the main item that would be up for disscussion at the county council meeting w/ regards to appropriation and funding for such an item. 400 gr. of hot lead is not what you want to see smoking down Rodeo Dr. or any other major met. area after perp 1 and baby jane have gone to meet their maker.
 
IMO LEOs using centerfire rifles in an urban enviroment is a disaster waiting to happen. Some children will be shot and killed by overpenatration and that policy will come to an end.
 
I like the idea, if we are talking about being on a tight budget like I am. I am sure we can all think of some better setups but it is hard to beat the price for what you get in a lever gun.
But instead of the 30-30, I went with the .44 magnum. It holds 9+1 capacity and I see no need for 30-30 against human targets, nor unleashing those rifle rounds in the city. .44 mag out of a carbine length barrel is more than enough for human attackers and the increase in capacity is almost two fold over the 30-30.

I tried the .357 lever gun at first, thinking it was plenty of firepower, but I found that with my fat fingers I could not load the gun very quickly. I could not get the cartridge all the way in the hole without a lot of effort. The fatter .44 mag cartridge allows me to load the gun faster because I can get my finger into the hole and shove the cartridge in all the way.

For around $300 my Winchester 94 in .44 makes a great "trunk gun", and it looks very politically correct. The short length, thin stock and low weight make it really handy around tight spaces etc.


I think the lever gun is a great idea. I am still torn though, since for the same price or less I can carry a 12 gauge shotgun. While a little bigger and bulkier the shotgun is superior up close, while (unless the money is put into the shotty to make it handle slugs with accuracy), the lever gun is better for longer range.


And, one other benefit of the .44 lever gun is that I can go to the local indoor range that only allows pistol cartridges, and practice with the it.
Now I just need to get the dies and reload it because .44 mag ammo ain't cheap but it is just so fun to shoot!

[Edited by jdthaddeus on 03-15-2001 at 02:20 PM]
 
JDThaddeus: I thought the same thing you did (about loading the .357 lever-gun) until I actually bothered to read the manual that came with my Winchester Trapper. They advise pushing in a cartridge until only a bit of the back rim is showing, and then using the NEXT cartridge to fully push in that one (while sliding that next cartridge into the same position). Of course, you still have to work the last cartridge through the loading ramp. Using this method, I was genuinely amazed by how fast I could fully load my Trapper. I'll bet even with your .44, you can speed up the time to top off your lever-gun.

Removable magazine? Who needs a removable magazine? ;)
 
This is a GREAT idea. If overpenetration is a problem with big-bore leverguns such as the 1895G, why not take a page from the Duke and use a Winchester '92 (or '94) or similar Marlin carbine chambered in .45 Colt or .44 Mag.? These leverguns are sweet shooters, are far more accurate than any handgun, have more range than a shotgun, and have more than enough punch without overpenetration concerns. Moreover, you can get a new '94 carbine for about $350. You could outfit all your squad cars with them for half what it costs to buy fancy semi-autos (and you'd probably make the national news in the process). Besides, judging from some of the recent high-profile shoot-outs, I think the cops need to worry less about overpentration and more about hitting their targets! A 9mm that plain misses has "overpenetrated", and lord knows where it will end up. Our mayor here is very pro-gun, and I may just suggest this.
 
Just don't use prone. Not being able to fire without some contortion from prone is one of the biggest reasons why America did not take a lever gun to war, except in internal conflicts...

I have my 1895G next to my M1 Carbine.
 
Good to see you Spectre,
I haven't put in the practice time I want to yet, but I have practiced cycling the lever gun by turning it sideways and levering the action. The prone shooting was an issue, but I can shoot pretty well prone, cycling the gun by flipping it sideways like described. Also, the corner of the butt catches on my upper bicep when I cant the gun to cycle it, making cycling fast and smooth.
Just some thoughts.
 
must be a problem with the short-actions only

I haven't any problem operating the action on my Winchester 94 16" in .357 magnum while lying prone.
 
Based on the original post, why not slide/pump action rifles? There's the BPR and a couple others, and I personally think the pump is faster. I think the actions tend to be a tad stronger, too (though I have a limited knowledge base)

Also, for a lever gun, how about a .444 or something like that.. you know, just in case some bears turn to crack and rob a bank... ;)

Honestly, I think it's a pretty good idea (overpenatration aside). For civilians, it's a great idea.. people might look at you odd if you have an AR in your trunk, but a model 94? nahh.. it's gramps' old gun!
 
I have been a strong fan of lever guns for home defence for years. I have activly lobbyied surefire for a responder type fore end and speed feed for speed feed spare round holding stocks. Of course this was to no avail. This is quickly becoming a more viable option unfortunatly as gun control strikens in areas.
 
Pump guns are not the best design for shooting from supported postitions because the fore end isn't fixed...makes it more difficult to fire accurate shots & can also lead to malfs due to short stroking the action or having the action partically cycle in recoil.

Question for you lever gun fans, how do you clear malfs in a lever gun with any speed?

IIRC lever guns were used in some of the same conflicts as the Krag by US troops, but the troops didn't like them at all because they were not up to snuff vs the other sides Mausers or even to the Krag.
 
Well if a 94 was good enough for Andy Griffith to grab when he actually needed a long gun, I can't see any reason it wouldn't be good enough for my locale's gendarmes. I'd be willing to bet a 30-30 hit just about anywhere (other than maybe in the little finger) would quickly and completely stop offending behavior of just about anybody too.

There really are some meaningful advantages to a lever gun. There must be. Jeff Cooper said so. Didn't he?
 
"Grampa's levergun" is still FAR superior to the worthless little semi autos so many LEO's carry. What's the point of a silly little pistol if it takes several clips to get the job done? A '94 carbine may not look too mean, but it can do really nasty things to a BG. Would you rather get hit with a 150 grain FMJ slug or a 255 gr lead alloy slug? Of course, that doesn't mean a Winchester is going to be better than a Mauser in combat, but we're not talking about combat here. Moreover, Mausers or assault rifles really aren't an option for cops on the beat. Leverguns offer better accuracy, range, power, and control than anything in your average officer's arsenal. What's not to like?
 
FWIW, we drove to relatives in California for Christmas and I wanted to take a rifle. I knew I couldn't take an AR or FAL so I took my Marlin .44 Mag.

David
 
Here's why I don't care for the idea personally.
1. Try reloading a Win94 while keeping sights on target and finger near the trigger. With a pump or auto, I can keep my hand on the grip and reload with my left hand. I can't do that with a lever-loading gate's on the wrong side.
2. Shooting and working the action while maintaining your grip and a rough sight picture. Every time I try to work the action on my Win94 while keeping it to my shoulder, the butt of the stock falls out of my shoulder weld. There is too much forward motion of your lever hand, which pushes the rifle butt down & away from your shoulder pocket. A pump is much smoother, pulling the rifle into your shoulder first and then pushing away, but with an action linear to your shoulder. In short,I can actually work a bolt action faster than my Win94!
Though I love my Win94 for deer, I'll stick to my AK for "urban carbine".
 
Poodleshooter:

Try reloading a Win94 while keeping sights on target and finger near the trigger. With a pump or auto, I can keep my hand on the grip and reload with my left hand. I can't do that with a lever-loading gate's on the wrong side.
Click to expand...

HA!!! Now you know how I feel, righty!! :p :D

As a lefty, that's one of the things I particularly like about tube-fed lever guns.

As for the slipping, maybe a very thin rubber pad (for friction, not recoil), or some skateboard tape?
 
Forget the traditional lever-gun! A Browning BLR has all the advantages of those, plus several improvements like being magazine fed - and the ability to use modern calibers from .308 up to .300 mag!
In addition, its rotary bolt locks up like a vice making it rival any bolt action for accuracy.
I would think the short-action BLR in .308 with a half dozen extra mags would be a formidable tactical rifle! Stick a quick-detachable scope on it and it can double as sniper rifle in an urban environment - they're that accurate!

I traded mine off in some stupid deal and I still kick myself.
 
"Here's why I don't care for the idea personally.
1. Try reloading a Win94 while keeping sights on target and finger near the trigger. With a pump or auto, I can keep my hand on the grip and reload with my left hand. I can't do that with a lever-loading gate's on the wrong side. "

Not arguing but just offering a different view: With 9+1 rounds of serious hard hitting ammunition I don't think I will be needing to reload while I keep on target. Maybe that does not sound too "tactical" but I see myself topping off the gun during lulls, and with good shooting I can't see why I need more than 10 rounds at a time from a rifle (with twice the capacity of the shotgun, maybe I would not need to reload so often?). This is not a gun meant for blazing away: it holds 10 rounds of serious hitting power from a very accurate base. A couple rounds at a time is all that should be needed to stop any threat, and topping off the magazine when possible should be enough.
Also, I have not practiced this a lot, but perhaps with practice it would not be too impossible to reload the lever gun with the left hand while holding on target? I mean, just because no one has tried it yet does not mean that a way cannot be invented. I bet that if all semi autos were outlawed and we had to figure out a way, that with minor modification or technique we could figure out a way. I don't think anyone has ever wanted to try it before so no one has ever done it. I will work on it.
I would not argue against the fact that a shotgun can be superior at close range, but the two guns fill different roles. A lever gun is in its element at 100 yards, while a shotgun is in its element at close quarters. I also would not argue against the statement that there are better rifles out there for combat, but we are talking about a compromise here in cost, size, weight, image, and the possibility of gun control giving us no more black rifles.


"2. Shooting and working the action while maintaining your grip and a rough sight picture. Every time I try to work the action on my Win94 while keeping it to my shoulder, the butt of the stock falls out of my shoulder weld. There is too much forward motion of your lever hand, which pushes the rifle butt down & away from your shoulder pocket. A pump is much smoother, pulling the rifle into your shoulder first and then pushing away, but with an action linear to your shoulder. In short,I can actually work a bolt action faster than my Win94!"

Try this: when you cycle the lever gun, tilt the top of it it slightly to the right so that the bottom corner of the butt digs into your pectoral muscle or ribcage. This will point the ejection port sideways/downward (depending on model of gun) and give the added advantage of gravity to help drop the brass out. Cycle the lever by pushing the lever left, downward across your body, while the bottom corner of the butt is dug into your pec muscle. This will give you very fast and secure cycling of the action even in tight quarters. You will be able to keep the gun pointed in the general direction the target, but it will definitly be thrown off by the action. This is how I do it, but maybe there is a better way.

I see the guys in cowboy action able to cycle and shoot at the same time, VERY fast. Much like watching a handgun competition to understand what can be done with a handgun, it is nice to watch cowbay action shooting to see what can be done with a lever gun. It is amazing! I think that many of us do not understand the limits that this gun can be taken to, because we have not seen anyone use it that really knows what they are doing.
Those guys are able to get their lever action smooth enough that it is easy to cycle while shooting on target, never missing a beat. Mine is not that smooth yet. Hopefully if I keep practicing with it, the action will get really smooth.

The lever gun was the tactical rifle of the cowboy. At 5.75 pounds, holding 10 rounds of devastating firepower at short rifle range, and extremely compact and cheap, I like mine a lot. I like my Armalite AR better, but the Armalite has its drawbacks too such as expense, small caliber, heavier weight, larger, scary looking etc.


"Though I love my Win94 for deer, I'll stick to my AK for "urban carbine"."

No argument there. A semi-automatic 'sport utility rifle' is far better than a lever gun at just about everything, but is not always an option.



[Edited by jdthaddeus on 03-16-2001 at 03:56 PM]
 
Hey, Thad. Get your heart right, and come on down to GA! :D

Prone can definitely be done. I believe the challenges in using a lever gun for military work are as follows:

Less efficient cartridges (I know, not an issue in Savage or Browning).

Less reliable mechanism.

Difficulties firing from prone.

Because of these, I believe the lever gun to be a fine choice for police work, or for home defense, but not the best choice for "in the field". I am ready to use my 1895G for any land game on the planet, or to defend my domicile, but would rather have a Mauser for serious social purposes away from support.
 
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