The real N.O. problem?
- Thread starter rallyhound
- Start date
I was listening to a fellow who talked about how fast the flood waters came up in his area.
He was cooking breakfast in a dry area. In minutes his refrigirator was floating sideways and actually pushed him out the door. He had no time to gather clothes, water or food. He did catch his swimming pet. The lady next door had her two dogs. Her house was a few feet higher so they swam with the pets and got on her roof.
All he had on was a t shirt and some cutoffs. He got sunburned badly. They spent two days on the roof he said he saw helicopters coming by loaded down with folks of all colors and ages. They would wave at them in hope of getting rescued.
He said the hardest part was at night. You couldnt sleep because New Orleans was crying he said. You could hear folks moaning, crying, shouting, shots being fired.
After two days a guy in a flatboat came and rescued them. His dad lived in the neighborhood and owned a hardware store. He took them to the hardware store which was dry and had a generator. They stayed there for a few days and left for another shelter and finally got transportation to relatives.
The part that haunts him the most are those two nights spent on the roof . The sounds are haunting him. Sounds like he has something similar to PTSD.
That recollection really set this whole thing in perspective for me.
He was cooking breakfast in a dry area. In minutes his refrigirator was floating sideways and actually pushed him out the door. He had no time to gather clothes, water or food. He did catch his swimming pet. The lady next door had her two dogs. Her house was a few feet higher so they swam with the pets and got on her roof.
All he had on was a t shirt and some cutoffs. He got sunburned badly. They spent two days on the roof he said he saw helicopters coming by loaded down with folks of all colors and ages. They would wave at them in hope of getting rescued.
He said the hardest part was at night. You couldnt sleep because New Orleans was crying he said. You could hear folks moaning, crying, shouting, shots being fired.
After two days a guy in a flatboat came and rescued them. His dad lived in the neighborhood and owned a hardware store. He took them to the hardware store which was dry and had a generator. They stayed there for a few days and left for another shelter and finally got transportation to relatives.
The part that haunts him the most are those two nights spent on the roof . The sounds are haunting him. Sounds like he has something similar to PTSD.
That recollection really set this whole thing in perspective for me.
MeekAndMild
New member
tyme, it is and it goes back a long way. This is the same mentality that Booker T Washington had to fight in his attempts to educate Black people 100 years ago. Try downloading this to read it in the original. Up From Slavery download site
What little news I have watched showed the professional parasites hogging the cameras making demands and doing nothing to help themselves. I blame the media and would be willing to suppose they walked past a lot of good people to choose the biggest mouths to make "interesting" interviews. Working poor people I have met don't walk aroung showing their (deleted) so much.
Your idea that somehow we all have to live with inequity may be right, but at the same time we have the responsibility to allow other people to live with their choices. Sometimes learning hurts and a show of compassion is the last thing people need. I'd rather be compassionate than show compassion. I'm not much for the theatre. How many trillions of dollars have we thrown at 'poverty' over the last 40 years to reduce its rate by 5%?
Duh! Like I said.
What little news I have watched showed the professional parasites hogging the cameras making demands and doing nothing to help themselves. I blame the media and would be willing to suppose they walked past a lot of good people to choose the biggest mouths to make "interesting" interviews. Working poor people I have met don't walk aroung showing their (deleted) so much.
Your idea that somehow we all have to live with inequity may be right, but at the same time we have the responsibility to allow other people to live with their choices. Sometimes learning hurts and a show of compassion is the last thing people need. I'd rather be compassionate than show compassion. I'm not much for the theatre. How many trillions of dollars have we thrown at 'poverty' over the last 40 years to reduce its rate by 5%?
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Meek-
Don't speciously oversimply this into, "Well, they made their choice; it's their problem".
Did you read Eghad's post just before yours?
What is your response to XavierBreath? He saw it first hand.
That's your excuse for throwing the baby out with the bath water during a certified National Disaster that makes 9/11 look like a training exercise? It's an excuse for dehumanizing whatever percent of NOLA victims are in "classes" you DO respect? Shopkeepers; dock workers; port employees; hotel workers; medical personnel; single mom's who happened to be down on their luck and receiving assistance this year?
No, the fact of the matter is that, had this happened to the Florida Keys, you and I wouldn't be having a debate about abandonment. Why? Because you'd see the "refugees" there as yourself, under different circumstances; you wouldn't count stolen TV sets at all. Just what percentage of "good people" in a City's population does it take for you to say, "Stop pointing your finger; Just Help Them" after a disaster?
How dare ANYONE, in the face of this kind of carnage and loss, sit behind a remote computer monitor and pontificate on who is "worthy" of help; all the while, telegraphing the message, "None of 'em".
Personally, I believe the operative issue from those who condemn an ENTIRE CITY, wholesale, is pure subconscious FEAR. If one is to engage in honest compassion, one has to recognize that the forces of Man and Nature place each of us just one teeny twist of fate away from the residents of NOLA. And so you speak of it in third person, in order not to identify; you speak of an abstract type of compassion, which is really not compassion for the instant issue at all; rather, it's a Policy Statement: "If you're in trouble, you're basically on your own." Now, for myself, I've always known that; but for those less fortunate than me, as an American, I say, "I'll do whatever it takes." And, despite all my bravado, preparation and intellectual "understanding", I am not above chance that might cause me to end up on a highway overpass, frantically waving a T-Shirt for help for me or those around me.
Perhaps your days are as difficult as those described by XavierBreath and Eghad. In that case, I understand your willingness to label, dehumanize and point fingers. However, many of us feel just fortunate enough that we're not willing to flush tens of thousands simply because, among their numbers, we have seen film of some percentage of animals and marauders.
What percentage of "approved classes" is required to get you off this attack? 70? 80? 99.9999?
Rich
MeekAndMild
New member
Rich just when I thought you were making some sense you start ranting about the Florida keys and racial stereotyping. That is your baggage and not mine.
Also you must have forgotten I used to live in hurricane country and have "been there and done that". While you are talking about being compasssionate for the past week I've been locating friends and family lost in three states, sending money to nongovernment aid groups and spending time at a smaller receiving center for refugees. Yes, in the past I've pulled people out of the water and I know just what XB is doing. I admire him for it, but I don't think he would make a big deal of it. And he surely wouldn't call people all the things you have called some of us because you can't wrap your head around what we are talking about.
Yes, I believe in being compassionate and rescuing people. But I believe also that this is the biggest opportunity for the last 30 years that we as a people have had to look at first causes of poverty, helplessness and patterns of bad decisionmaking. If we don't the next crisis will be worse and then perhaps hundreds of thousands will starve. Once this is over the "sheeple" as you call them will forget again and the opportunity to educate will be over.
Perhaps it would be better if you and I didn't talk about this again especially if you insist on projecting your racial hostilities onto me.
Also you must have forgotten I used to live in hurricane country and have "been there and done that". While you are talking about being compasssionate for the past week I've been locating friends and family lost in three states, sending money to nongovernment aid groups and spending time at a smaller receiving center for refugees. Yes, in the past I've pulled people out of the water and I know just what XB is doing. I admire him for it, but I don't think he would make a big deal of it. And he surely wouldn't call people all the things you have called some of us because you can't wrap your head around what we are talking about.
Yes, I believe in being compassionate and rescuing people. But I believe also that this is the biggest opportunity for the last 30 years that we as a people have had to look at first causes of poverty, helplessness and patterns of bad decisionmaking. If we don't the next crisis will be worse and then perhaps hundreds of thousands will starve. Once this is over the "sheeple" as you call them will forget again and the opportunity to educate will be over.
Perhaps it would be better if you and I didn't talk about this again especially if you insist on projecting your racial hostilities onto me.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
I would agree, in a month or two. Just now, for many, it's about survival. Kinda think that maybe a Policy Debate, just now, is not the best use of our time? I do.
You seem to have your players confused, M&M. I have nearly 9,000 posts on this Board. Show me the last time I referred to anyone as "sheeple". I abhor the term for its personal grandiosity and posture.
In short, Source Please....or retraction in order.
Projecting?
MY racial hostilities?
Dude, I'm an equal opportunity disdainer. I disdain bad acts, bad grammar, bad logic and mis-attributed malignment, no matter what your color is.
Kindly show me anywhere in those near 9,000 posts where I've demonstrated this "racial hostility". Again, Source Please.
OTOH, let's take a look at **your** statements, in this thread alone:
So, in light of the above, explain to me what I got wrong. Were you speaking of something other than race that separates New Orleans from, say, New York, Chicago, Omaha or Boston? Exactly how is it that YOU were able to separate the "professional parasites" from the "worthy" in those clips. Explain that one fact, in coherent manner, and I promise to provide you whatever apology regarding your statements as you may require.
What on earth is your point? That a national disaster is the perfect opportunity to start practicing societal "Tough Love", regardless of whether the victims have a "welfare problem" or not?
Rich
MeekAndMild
New member
Yes. See you on TFL.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
See that, right there?
I'm a hopeless romantic. I actually hoped you'd defend your statements.
Rich
I'm a hopeless romantic. I actually hoped you'd defend your statements.
Rich
MeekAndMild
New member
No, I don't do debate but if you're amenable to learning and understanding we will discuss it later once the anger is lower. I agree that my statement about "sheeple" was hyperbolic and some of my other statements were cryptic or rhetorical. However I'll stand by my analysis about your tendency to racial and cultural stereotyping and presumptions. Once yours posts are cold I would invite you to go back and look at them to judge for yourself.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Meek- I appreciate the attempt at reconciliation (honestly). None is necessary, though your correction of the record regarding my statements was appreciated. When Push comes to Shove, you and I still end up on the same side of the barricade.
But....
Don't make me say the words! OK, I'll say 'em:
Source Please. Where have I demonstrated "racial stereotyping"?
Never mind....don't answer that.
Thread now returned to "The Real N.O. Problem".
Rich
But....
You don't get to slip that one in. If you stand by your "analysis" of my "racial stereotyping", then you are honor-bound to share that "analysis" with the rest of us.
Don't make me say the words! OK, I'll say 'em:
Source Please. Where have I demonstrated "racial stereotyping"?
Never mind....don't answer that.
Thread now returned to "The Real N.O. Problem".
Rich
MeekAndMild
New member
Rich you have mail. (The nannybot won't let me cuss like that on this site. 
) Perhaps in retrospect your stereotyping was merely cultural since you seem to believe you know the mind of the south so well.
) Perhaps in retrospect your stereotyping was merely cultural since you seem to believe you know the mind of the south so well.
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Wildalaska
Moderator
There was no problem in NO, except the Press
Ill be that when the chips are all counted, there were less rapes, murders and assaults during katrina thatn on a normal summer night in NO.
WildimhoAlaska
Ill be that when the chips are all counted, there were less rapes, murders and assaults during katrina thatn on a normal summer night in NO.
WildimhoAlaska
The Bottom line is that the whole system from the top down to the lowest element needs to be revamped. The rule book needs to be changed about responses to a disaster of this magnitude.
The first change that needs to be made is that communications need to be beefed up. This can be done, by the use of sattelite communications units. When I was deployed we had an Army communications unit and no land lines to anywhere except internally on the LSA. However I had full computer use and internet linkage which is vital in order to track parts and stocks that are vital to operations as well as ordering commercial off the shelf items to solve humanitarian aid and distant location needs. A working soultion can be done for this in the FEMA Regions, if I can have communications worldwide in the middle of nowhere that doesnt have the capibility then that problem can be solved from the city level up.
From down here and reading some articles appears to be a lot of chiefs involved in this from the presidents staff down. I have been in situations where this happened. Sounds like bureuacratic tennis was being played. The best way for this to work is have one boss with overall responsibility. He talks everyone else goes to ears mode. LTG Honore set that example.
There needs to be some revamping of the request mechanism for federal aid. The flooding was so fast that nobody had time to prepare or be ready. In my experience a good op order can get you in the neighborhood to being prepared. However, I have not seen many survive the opening moments, flexibility is a key factor to surviving this because you usaully get everything thrown at you including stuff that was not in the plan. There needs to be some mechanism for the President to declare an emergency where command shifts from local to FEMA. New Orleans should have been prepared better but we know a city just doesnt have the resources that are available to the Federal Government. Thats kinda harsh but in my experience if a commander aint cutttin the mustard usually he gets relieved. I know thier will be some squawks about states right but imo in an emergency the right of people to get immediate aid supercedes some things. Plenty of time to kiss and make nice later.
We all need to sit back and see what went wrong and what went right and ensure the lessons learned dont go to a book that sets on a shelf and does not get implemented.
The first change that needs to be made is that communications need to be beefed up. This can be done, by the use of sattelite communications units. When I was deployed we had an Army communications unit and no land lines to anywhere except internally on the LSA. However I had full computer use and internet linkage which is vital in order to track parts and stocks that are vital to operations as well as ordering commercial off the shelf items to solve humanitarian aid and distant location needs. A working soultion can be done for this in the FEMA Regions, if I can have communications worldwide in the middle of nowhere that doesnt have the capibility then that problem can be solved from the city level up.
From down here and reading some articles appears to be a lot of chiefs involved in this from the presidents staff down. I have been in situations where this happened. Sounds like bureuacratic tennis was being played. The best way for this to work is have one boss with overall responsibility. He talks everyone else goes to ears mode. LTG Honore set that example.
There needs to be some revamping of the request mechanism for federal aid. The flooding was so fast that nobody had time to prepare or be ready. In my experience a good op order can get you in the neighborhood to being prepared. However, I have not seen many survive the opening moments, flexibility is a key factor to surviving this because you usaully get everything thrown at you including stuff that was not in the plan. There needs to be some mechanism for the President to declare an emergency where command shifts from local to FEMA. New Orleans should have been prepared better but we know a city just doesnt have the resources that are available to the Federal Government. Thats kinda harsh but in my experience if a commander aint cutttin the mustard usually he gets relieved. I know thier will be some squawks about states right but imo in an emergency the right of people to get immediate aid supercedes some things. Plenty of time to kiss and make nice later.
We all need to sit back and see what went wrong and what went right and ensure the lessons learned dont go to a book that sets on a shelf and does not get implemented.
You will always have about 3% of the people who will abuse a system such as welfare. There will be no cure for this.
Then there will be folks who get sick and cant work. Not much you can do to fix this. I dont know what percentage this is maybe someone can help me out.
However the other 95% probably want something better in life. I grew up with a lack of money and knew that wasnt the place I wanted to be.
The first tool in cutting poverty is education. The second is a job the person can go to once he gets that education. You can teach a man to fish but it doesnt do much good if the fishing hole dries up.
Then there will be folks who get sick and cant work. Not much you can do to fix this. I dont know what percentage this is maybe someone can help me out.
However the other 95% probably want something better in life. I grew up with a lack of money and knew that wasnt the place I wanted to be.
The first tool in cutting poverty is education. The second is a job the person can go to once he gets that education. You can teach a man to fish but it doesnt do much good if the fishing hole dries up.
MeekAndMild
New member
Sad to say its coming out that Louisiana is number one in the US for USA Corps of Engineers funding. Trouble is that it's not neccessarily going for flood control projects.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
There is just such a mechanism. Abe Lincoln invented it back in 1861. Be **very** careful of expanding Federal powers based on events defined by those same powers. What you get is not pretty.
Think about this statement for a second. We laugh when lawmakers claim that, because a State Law fails (gun control) all we need is a bigger Federal Law to succeed. Yet you're applying the exact same logic to Katrina.....if government doesn't do the job, bigger government is the answer.
It makes no sense, Eghad. Besides, it's not like Louisiana and New Orleans lacked the resources to deal with this problem until Fed assistance arrived. What they lacked was **leadership**. Nat Guard wasn't called in; the evacuations started late and with no city/state assistance; buses weren't fired up; Trains weren't used; Red Cross was turned away from the SuperDome....the littany of errors is extensive.
Are you suggesting that the President be ably to take over any State or City that he declares in a National Disaster Area, simply because he doesn't think the Mayor or Governor is doing their job? Not only is that an Unconstitutional and dangerous legal precedent, but it will not result in more efficient aid in most cases.
Rich