The Other War

M

madmag

New member
Yes, we have two wars. The war in Iraq and the war on our southern border. This is not new, it's just that it is now building to a point where it is finally taking public notice. I have lived on the border, so I know that the attached Glenn Beck report is no exaggeration. The sad part is Bush is perfectly willing to send 3000 plus soldiers to death in Iraq, but he will not even give the time of day to the police fighting our border wars. I guess this would go against his failed comprehensive immigration plan.


(Please note the new full length documentry movie mentioned in the link.)


http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2007/10/30/beck.nuevo.laredo.cnn
 
I saw part of this last night. I've been all for letting National Gaurd troops guard the borders. And I mean really guard them with active partrols 24/7 turning back illegals, arresting anyone found to possess drugs, and meeting any armed resistance with lethal force up to and including incursions into Mexican territory to hit bases of operations. Mexico is already violating our border, they can't complain when we start doing the same thing.
 
There was a pretty good article on this in SWAT last year. There already are and have been firefights on the border between private U.S. citizens and Mexican Nationals. I seem to remember the Texas Governor saying something about using the NG to take care of the problem if the Fedgov won't.

Looking at the force the Texas Governor has, I don't think he needs anyone's help. He would be in Mexico City before the Feds even decided who would be on the Committee to Complain about it.

Texas National Guard:
136th Airlift Wing
254 Combat Communication Group
149th Fighter Wing
147th Fighter Wing
36th Infantry Division
36th Combat Aviation Brigade
 
The war in Iraq and the war on our southern border.
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Unfortunately,the criminals we've sent to D.C. don't give a damn about our southern issue.They are much too busy kissing up to the huge future Hispanic vote that will ultimately destroy us as a nation.
 
I believe this:

Bush gave a veiled threat that we needed to pass his immigration bill or there would be no border security. I think Bush is following through on his threat. His own (my) party helped defeat the immigration bill, so now he refuses to provide border security. I have said this before...probably not the last time. I am a life long Republican, but I believe Bush has failed to perform one of the most fundamental tasks any US President has, to protect the border security of the United States Of America.
 
Armed conflict.

What if I told you that the US HAS conducted ARMED AND AGGRESSIVE border security on the Federal level in the past?
I didn't know this until yesterday. I rode with a very good freind of mine to see his grandfather in a retirement home in Silverdale. This gentleman is 91 years old. He served 30 years in the military, beginning in the US Army Air Corps in 1943. He had a great story to tell about early service.
In the mid-to-late 1940's, California had much the same issue as it does now regarding criminal immigration. Because of that, Dan's (the grandfather) airwing, a C-47 group out of LA, was detailed to fly aerial observation and security. They would fly south along the coast, turn east and cover the border, and then fly back up the state line, crossing to LA and making what amounts to a huge square.
He told me that almost daily, the would see trains of illegals walking the border, and they would....get ready for this....drop altitude, STICK THEIR THOMPSONS OUT THE DOORS:eek:, AND FIRE WARNING SHOTS:eek: until the offenders turned around and went home. It was treated then as an invasion.

It's funny to see how much attitudes and politics have changed. During the 1940's and 1950's, when terrorist technology and tactics were a little more limited than today, criminal immigration was treated as AN INVASION:eek:
Today, in the world of nukes that fit in backpacks and extremist homicide bombers, the same issue is treated as political ebola, to be avoided at all costs for as long as possible.

It will take several more sharp drops in the dollar, tax increases, and criminal incidents before the issue is addressed. And that's sad.

In reference to the OP, you are quite right. I was unaware that this had been treated as a war before, but DEFINITELY needs to be treated as such again.

NOTE TO FLAMERS:
I AM NOT A RACIST. I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST PEOPLE OF LATIN-AMERICAN ORIGIN OR THOSE OF ANY OTHER NATIONALITY WHO ENTER OUR BORDERS LEGALLY IN HOPES OF ENJOYING NEW OPPORTUNITY. I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IDEA OF CAMPS, INTERNMENT, OR PRISON TIME ON A MASS SCALE. I ONLY SUGGEST THAT OUR BORDERS BE DEFENDED IN A MANNER THAT WILL DETER OR DESTROY THE DRUG RUNNERS, INTEL GATHERERS, CRIMINALS, GANG MEMBERS, AND OTHER THUGS WHO ATTEMPT TO USE OUR GENEROSITY AS A SAFE-HAVEN FOR THEIR ACTS OF WICKEDNESS.
 
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During the 1940's and 1950's, when terrorist technology and tactics were a little more limited than today, criminal immigration was treated as AN INVASION
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You are correct. Eisenhower had a program to stop alien invasion. The name of the program is not politically correct for todays time, but it did work. Probably an outgrowth of the program you mention. Anyway, Ike did take border security seriously.

Now we have situation where Americans living on the US side of the border are afraid to come out at night due to fear from criminals on the Mexican side of the border.
 
This is good news, but it's truly sad that the States have to do this on their own.....shame on George Bush. BTW, I lived in El Paso...great city.

From the article:


"It's a federal responsibility," Wiles said. "It's their job. We don't have the resources to do it, and the taxpayers of El Paso should not have to pay to have their police department doing the federal government's job."
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http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_7603895


Added:
Just a sign of the times. Warning, don't view this on a full stomach.

http://www.care2.com/news/member/964698695/557272
 
I saw part of this last night. I've been all for letting National Gaurd troops guard the borders. And I mean really guard them with active partrols 24/7 turning back illegals, arresting anyone found to possess drugs, and meeting any armed resistance with lethal force up to and including incursions into Mexican territory to hit bases of operations. Mexico is already violating our border, they can't complain when we start doing the same thing.
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Active Army, maybe. National Guard, not so much. National Guardsmen are only (in theory) part-time soldiers who are expected to keep a civilian career to feed their families 90+% of the time. So activating them for extended periods for this purpose disrupts that, and significantly. Using their annual training and drill time, on the other hand, takes away from their time spent training for their actual military duties.

It's just a relatively poor and unreasonable use of our reserve forces.

If you want border security, hire more Border Patrol agents. Or use full-time military forces. Also (since there's the implication that the feds aren't giving the BP what they need to handle it), what exactly keeps states from hiring more full-time law enforcement officers at the state level to supplement the border patrol? Is there some reason you couldn't simply hire more state police and just happen to have them patrol the southern (or northern) part of your state more than the rest? I'm guessing there is and I'm just showing my ignorance, but I'm not seeing it.
 
If you want border security, hire more Border Patrol agents. Or use full-time military forces. Also (since there's the implication that the feds aren't giving the BP what they need to handle it),
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Agreed.

Is there some reason you couldn't simply hire more state police and just happen to have them patrol the southern (or northern) part of your state more than the rest? I'm guessing there is and I'm just showing my ignorance, but I'm not seeing it.
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It's been hard for individual states to come to understand that they have to take on what should be a mainly federal duty. Actually, It is amazing what the states are doing to increase their law enforcement to fight illegal invasion. More is being done each day at state levels. But of course this is much more complicated than having one order issued to one federal force, so it takes time. It's simply taken time for the states to understand that they have been almost abandoned by the feds (Bush) in the fight to secure our borders.

Some politicians don't quite get it yet, but illegal immigration & border security is going to be about the number one issue in the upcoming campaign. Recently, Gov. Spitzer of NY got a rude awakening about what is really in the voters minds. I think this awakening is going to happen on a national level soon.

To our politicians: secure our borders first, then talk to me about immigration programs.
 
I believe Bush has failed to perform one of the most fundamental tasks any US President has, to protect the border security of the United States Of America.
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Amen to that, brother. It is only by virtue of the fact that those coming in from Mexico are a cheap source of labor (for now) that keeps us mollified while their numbers grow. Bush's failure to follow through on this issue only shows that he, like all politicians, is ruled by political expediency, and not by any real sense of obligation to the American public.
 
Illegal immigration is good for business. Bush = puppet of economic conservatives. Bush says social conservative things (on which he does nothing) to hoodwink lower socio-economic level social conservatives to get their votes (better pass another flag buring amendment!!).

That's all you need to know. Cheney's company is moving to Dhubai. :eek:
 
Active Army, maybe. National Guard, not so much. National Guardsmen are only (in theory) part-time soldiers who are expected to keep a civilian career to feed their families 90+% of the time. So activating them for extended periods for this purpose disrupts that, and significantly. Using their annual training and drill time, on the other hand, takes away from their time spent training for their actual military duties.

It's just a relatively poor and unreasonable use of our reserve forces.

If you want border security, hire more Border Patrol agents. Or use full-time military forces. Also (since there's the implication that the feds aren't giving the BP what they need to handle it), what exactly keeps states from hiring more full-time law enforcement officers at the state level to supplement the border patrol? Is there some reason you couldn't simply hire more state police and just happen to have them patrol the southern (or northern) part of your state more than the rest? I'm guessing there is and I'm just showing my ignorance, but I'm not seeing it.
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I disagree. Why spend more money when the people and infrastructure to do the job are already in place? Defending the borders is an inherently military job, and as we are in the middle of a war the National Guard and Army Reserve are already expected to be devoting more time to their military responsibilities.

I wouldn't be against using the regular full-time military instead of our the N.G. or Reserves; however, they're kind of busy at the moment. Further, I think partrolling and doing interdiction work the US/Mex. border would be a good way to to train for doing the same thing in Iraq (afterall, are not a lot of the fighters and weapons being used against US troops in Iraq from across the border).

To answer your last questing, the Federal government contends it is its job and only its job to enforce immigration law. State and Local LEO have no authority to enforce these laws and when they try are either sued by pro-illegal immigration groups to get them stopped or are stopped by the Feds themselves. N.G. troops could easily be Federalized, and wow, suddenly they have the authority. I'd prefer military on the border to LE for the simple fact that it's my belief it's a military job and doesn't need another money draining agency to do it.

An alternative to this that I would love to see is for the Feds. to deputize all local and state law enforcement in border states so that they'd suddenly have a huge force in place to handle immigration issues. The arguement against this has been the cost of training. I have to call bull on that one because, let's face it, how much training does it take to drive, throw, or force someone to walk back over the border? Probably the same kind of skills you already have as a LEO.
 
I'd prefer military on the border to LE for the simple fact that it's my belief it's a military job and doesn't need another money draining agency to do it.
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I agree. Although I think it should still be under overall authority of the Border Patrol. And way back when I was in the Army, we use to spend as much money for large training maneuvers as it would take to patrol the border. And military aircraft have to fly to keep up proficiency rating no matter patrolling the border or not.

The only thing really lacking is the will of President Bush to do the job.
 
I'm an Arizona Guardsman. I was on the southwest border mission in Yuma for about sixth months before I was ordered to that (apparently completely forgotten) war in Afghanistan. I can't speak for Texas, but the situation in the Yuma Sector isn't even remotely comparable to the shooting war here in Afghanistan.

I grant that the border is sometimes violent and dangerous to patrol, but comparing it to real, full-time combat seems a bit of an exaggeration. A couple of weeks ago, I got to watch nine flag-draped coffins roll before me. Seven of them contained soldiers from the brigade we fall under here. Two guys from my unit have been killed with IEDs, and others have been maimed. I never saw anything like that on the border mission.

Using the Guard on the border mission seemed to work okay. Some of us were in support roles, mainly those of us there for the long haul. This freed up Border Patrol agents to resume patrol. Others, usually Guardsmen on their two-week ATs, manned the EIT ("Entry Identification Team") sites - basically LP/OPs set up along the actual border. Those of us there long-term were all volunteers, though the funding method used to pay us was a little...creative.

Based on what I saw on the border, I think the answer isn't necessarily a full-time military presence. Rather, I think we need a combination of lowering demand for illegal workers with economic measures and sanctions, a larger Border Patrol that can move to remote areas faster, physical barriers in some areas, and the much-derided "virtual fence" in others.
 
Those of us there long-term were all volunteers...
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When I think about it, I will say that I have little problem using the Guard for border duty provided it is strictly voluntary (at least for non drill/AT duty). Again this is due to the unique nature of service in the Guard; being required to maintain a civilian career to support our families.

EDIT: That, or I'd support the idea if mandatory call-ups for border duty were instituted in place of overseas combat assignments. Basically there's only a certain optempo that you can expect a Guard soldier to maintain and still be able to support his family between activations (yes, I know there are laws protecting reservists but for reasons I'll not go too deeply into they're not always adequate). I know too many Guardsmen who have spent three of the last six years deployed.

Based on what I saw on the border, I think the answer isn't necessarily a full-time military presence. Rather, I think we need a combination of lowering demand for illegal workers with economic measures and sanctions, a larger Border Patrol that can move to remote areas faster, physical barriers in some areas, and the much-derided "virtual fence" in others.
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Also, since I'm editing anyway, I'll just chime in that this is pretty much my feeling as well.
 
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The "Other War"

I find it insulting that the media here claims that this is "new to the media here" considering that this news has been shown regularly in the US since the 70's. Mexico has yet to get rid of it's corrupt "desperado" past as well as the nasty death squads that still exist throughout the country-side. When NAFTA was signed, all of our municipal employees (both Democrats & Republicans) said that it would bring prosperity to Mexico. Where the hell is the prosperity in "Nuevo Laredo" ???!!! Guess this news report caught them in another lie!
 
38splfan said:
NOTE TO FLAMERS: I AM NOT A RACIST.
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I'd like to take a moment and address this issue out in the open.

I know exactly what 38splfan means, because I do it myself.

I believe it revolves around the concept that PC has given some groups a free pass. Even the very idea of criticism is somehow defined as racism.

For example, I believe that gansta rap music doesn't do anyone a favor. I leave a cable music station on my TV late into the evening as I work. Some of the songs depict nothing but violence, misogyny and the securing large sums of cash. Unless you live as a 'playa' you somehow do not have any street creds. Beyonce' Knowles stated it outright in the song "Soldier."

As a teacher, my wife and I have discussed just exactly how this impacts generations. After all, my generation had Rock n' Roll.

Well, if you want to extend the life of a gang-banger, you send him to prison. Left alone on the street, the odds are that he will die a younger man.

Now, I believe this, I see this, the movement is moving into my area boldly, in broad daylight. Graffiti announcing gang areas is moving outward from our central city. Many of the tags are from Chicago gangs.

And to address 38splfan's concerns, I am not a racist either. The problem here is that my criticism flows from the ideals of a Caucasian to an all black population. This is liberal Madison, and sins against PC are some of the most serious committed.

The woman who sang at my wedding was a supervisor in a government job before she retired. She had a discussion about the poor quality of assignments turned in by a black employee. As you might of guessed, it was my friend who got into trouble and was offered "sensitivity training."

What I shake my head at is the fact that 38splfan had to state his position. His polite prose should have demonstrated that to us, as commentary always does. However, you know in your heart someone is going to jump on him.
 
The southern border will remain a mess for a very long time. The feds are just going to put on political shows to appease us.

George Bush is more interested in invading Iran than securing our borders. Sure George, let's start another war and nation building operation on the other side of the world while we are being invaded at home. :mad:
 
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