The other side of the coin...
- Thread starter Epyon
- Start date
Abndoc...
Interesting you bring up Hamas, it seems that after the Palestinian elections the U.S. was rather upset with the results and held Hamas in contempt. However, what if Hamas is genuinely trying to change its act and be more of a politcal force instead of a militant force? Hezbollah at this point is screwing itself over with its current actions, as for Hamas, they just might get drawn into the crossfire before any serious reforms can be taken to institute it as a legitimate political group in the eyes of the west. As for disarmamnet and going home, I don't entirely agree with disarmament more so than actually trying to not violate agreements in peace, and the fact of the matter is, I refuse to believe that only one side violates treaties that have been issued countless times since the 1950/1960s. Also note that no one here, myself included, is in Israel or Palestine to witness firsthand what's going on; therefore none of us can ever get the full detail of events, we can only listen to whatever the media feeds us. Just as news here is partial to Israel, if we watched the news in an anti-Israel country we'd have more anti-Israel sentiments and blow off other stories as propganda if it doesn't fit our way of thinking.
Epyon
Interesting you bring up Hamas, it seems that after the Palestinian elections the U.S. was rather upset with the results and held Hamas in contempt. However, what if Hamas is genuinely trying to change its act and be more of a politcal force instead of a militant force? Hezbollah at this point is screwing itself over with its current actions, as for Hamas, they just might get drawn into the crossfire before any serious reforms can be taken to institute it as a legitimate political group in the eyes of the west. As for disarmamnet and going home, I don't entirely agree with disarmament more so than actually trying to not violate agreements in peace, and the fact of the matter is, I refuse to believe that only one side violates treaties that have been issued countless times since the 1950/1960s. Also note that no one here, myself included, is in Israel or Palestine to witness firsthand what's going on; therefore none of us can ever get the full detail of events, we can only listen to whatever the media feeds us. Just as news here is partial to Israel, if we watched the news in an anti-Israel country we'd have more anti-Israel sentiments and blow off other stories as propganda if it doesn't fit our way of thinking.
Epyon
Epyon
Yesterdays terrorist is todays politician? Okay, on a personal level, I could accept that, if the ACTIONS of Hamas proved it. Words without action are just words. The Brits are doing the same thing in N. Ireland. They may not be the best of friends with the IRA, but the IRA's actions are allowing this to work.
For the record, I agree that total disarmament won't work. It just makes you a victim.
As for Hezbollah, I think that their strings are totally pulled by Iran. Israel is not really at war with Hezbollah, but with Iran. I really can't see the leadership of Iran changing their spots. Without a radical change at the top of that country, and probably not even then, there won't be peace.
The most effective thing that the Arab world could do for the Palestinian problem is to figure out a way to make them at least marginally prosperous. Hungry people are angry people.
Yesterdays terrorist is todays politician? Okay, on a personal level, I could accept that, if the ACTIONS of Hamas proved it. Words without action are just words. The Brits are doing the same thing in N. Ireland. They may not be the best of friends with the IRA, but the IRA's actions are allowing this to work.
For the record, I agree that total disarmament won't work. It just makes you a victim.
As for Hezbollah, I think that their strings are totally pulled by Iran. Israel is not really at war with Hezbollah, but with Iran. I really can't see the leadership of Iran changing their spots. Without a radical change at the top of that country, and probably not even then, there won't be peace.
The most effective thing that the Arab world could do for the Palestinian problem is to figure out a way to make them at least marginally prosperous. Hungry people are angry people.
Harley Quinn
Moderator
No, they have all ready shown tarnish
That is the way of that area regarding the situation.
HQ
That is the way of that area regarding the situation.
HQ
"I do however try to stay to the middle"
Why? I ask you this in all seriousness. Why stay in the great undecided gray area in the middle when it is possible to make a decision based on right and wrong? Take a stand.
John
___________________________
Let me add a comment about:
"The most effective thing that the Arab world could do for the Palestinian problem is to figure out a way to make them at least marginally prosperous. Hungry people are angry people."
THEY WANT THEM POOR AND ANGRY. Sorry, but they've wanted them that way since the very beginning. This is Middle East 101, Chapter 1, Page 1. They didn't want them moved back into Israel after the formation of the country and they haven't wanted any kind of solution since then. They use the poor and hungry year after year to further their political goals.
Why? I ask you this in all seriousness. Why stay in the great undecided gray area in the middle when it is possible to make a decision based on right and wrong? Take a stand.
John
___________________________
Let me add a comment about:
"The most effective thing that the Arab world could do for the Palestinian problem is to figure out a way to make them at least marginally prosperous. Hungry people are angry people."
THEY WANT THEM POOR AND ANGRY. Sorry, but they've wanted them that way since the very beginning. This is Middle East 101, Chapter 1, Page 1. They didn't want them moved back into Israel after the formation of the country and they haven't wanted any kind of solution since then. They use the poor and hungry year after year to further their political goals.
johnbt to answer your question...
the reason I am in the middle not picking sides in this issue is because of the fact that a good number of people see this topic mostly in absolutes, however if you're asking why I try to stay in the middle when it comes to politics in general is because I think leaning too far to the left or right leads to party line politics, and that gets freedom nowhere it just makes people want to do what's better for the party than for the country in general. Example: I'm pro-gun, but I'm also pro-gay marrige. Most political parties that I've looked into joining just don't add up to what I believe because of the fact that they disagree with such an extreme on topics, that it seems they just disagree just to spite the other. So if say there is a Democrat running and they support gay marrige, but want to ban guns I don't want to side with them. The same would be true if it was a Republican candidate who was pro-gun, but anti-gay marrige.
So now my question to you is, what is right and wrong? Some may argue that Israel was open territory and the Palestinians settled there pre-Holocaust because most of the Jews were in Europe. Fast forward to post-Holocaust and instead of letting the Jews stay in Europe to rebuild they move back into Israel which is now occupied by another group of people. Obviously now this has caused an uproar, and has created a new mess. Is it right for any group to kick people out of their property just for the sake of religion? Now let me ask a very tough question, if the Native Americans said they were fed up with living on reservations and decided to fight back to retake their land, who is right and wrong? It's very hard to really make such choices on what is right and wrong when there are so many problems that just clash with each other.
(This part goes waaaaaaaay off topic, but should give you some insight on my views on politics, think what you'd like whether I'm too far left or right or whatever.)
I guess in conclusion, the only thing that I'd be absolute about is following the Constitution to the highest degree, and even if that means breaking current laws or ways of thinking in order to be free then I'd rather be labled as "un-American" against the sheep than agree just to fit in and be part of the crowd. I feel that the Founding Fathers did want people to think for themselves, and that it's okay to think and state even things that may be provocative; that it is totally okay because we are allowed to say things that not all of society may agree with. Does it make me "un-American" or a "terrorist" because I choose not to support this current administration or protest my thoughts that this is an unjustified and infinite war we are fighting? Perpetual wars such as drugs and terrorism are just an excuse to herd us into fear and to strip away our rights, which is already happening, and we sit idly hoping some magic hand will come down and stop it all. Perpetual wars are also an excuse to bully others domestically and internationally and take their resources and property secretly. Drug busts add up to property siezed, as well as corporations using the excuse of eminent domain. How come American business and contractors are able to set up shop in Iraq? Why can't the Iraqi people set up businesses and contracts without American companies being in competition during reconstruction? Why can't Iraq set up its own economy how it sees fit instead of being force-fed American capitalism and government? Why can't the Iraqi people rule amongst themselves without Americans telling them how they should form their government? What if perpetual wars are the cause of terrorism? If we are such a peaceful nation why are we constantly at war every few years? Personally, I feel the last justified war America fought was WW2, America was attacked, and so America fought back. Who's to say that over the years these terrorists were due to our involvement in so many military/corporate campaigns and now we're paying the price for our deeds in spades? Do I sound like I'm "one of them" just because I don't exactly take political stands like everyone else? As George W. Bush said, "You're either with us, or against us.":barf: :barf: :barf:
Epyon
the reason I am in the middle not picking sides in this issue is because of the fact that a good number of people see this topic mostly in absolutes, however if you're asking why I try to stay in the middle when it comes to politics in general is because I think leaning too far to the left or right leads to party line politics, and that gets freedom nowhere it just makes people want to do what's better for the party than for the country in general. Example: I'm pro-gun, but I'm also pro-gay marrige. Most political parties that I've looked into joining just don't add up to what I believe because of the fact that they disagree with such an extreme on topics, that it seems they just disagree just to spite the other. So if say there is a Democrat running and they support gay marrige, but want to ban guns I don't want to side with them. The same would be true if it was a Republican candidate who was pro-gun, but anti-gay marrige.
So now my question to you is, what is right and wrong? Some may argue that Israel was open territory and the Palestinians settled there pre-Holocaust because most of the Jews were in Europe. Fast forward to post-Holocaust and instead of letting the Jews stay in Europe to rebuild they move back into Israel which is now occupied by another group of people. Obviously now this has caused an uproar, and has created a new mess. Is it right for any group to kick people out of their property just for the sake of religion? Now let me ask a very tough question, if the Native Americans said they were fed up with living on reservations and decided to fight back to retake their land, who is right and wrong? It's very hard to really make such choices on what is right and wrong when there are so many problems that just clash with each other.
(This part goes waaaaaaaay off topic, but should give you some insight on my views on politics, think what you'd like whether I'm too far left or right or whatever.)
I guess in conclusion, the only thing that I'd be absolute about is following the Constitution to the highest degree, and even if that means breaking current laws or ways of thinking in order to be free then I'd rather be labled as "un-American" against the sheep than agree just to fit in and be part of the crowd. I feel that the Founding Fathers did want people to think for themselves, and that it's okay to think and state even things that may be provocative; that it is totally okay because we are allowed to say things that not all of society may agree with. Does it make me "un-American" or a "terrorist" because I choose not to support this current administration or protest my thoughts that this is an unjustified and infinite war we are fighting? Perpetual wars such as drugs and terrorism are just an excuse to herd us into fear and to strip away our rights, which is already happening, and we sit idly hoping some magic hand will come down and stop it all. Perpetual wars are also an excuse to bully others domestically and internationally and take their resources and property secretly. Drug busts add up to property siezed, as well as corporations using the excuse of eminent domain. How come American business and contractors are able to set up shop in Iraq? Why can't the Iraqi people set up businesses and contracts without American companies being in competition during reconstruction? Why can't Iraq set up its own economy how it sees fit instead of being force-fed American capitalism and government? Why can't the Iraqi people rule amongst themselves without Americans telling them how they should form their government? What if perpetual wars are the cause of terrorism? If we are such a peaceful nation why are we constantly at war every few years? Personally, I feel the last justified war America fought was WW2, America was attacked, and so America fought back. Who's to say that over the years these terrorists were due to our involvement in so many military/corporate campaigns and now we're paying the price for our deeds in spades? Do I sound like I'm "one of them" just because I don't exactly take political stands like everyone else? As George W. Bush said, "You're either with us, or against us.":barf: :barf: :barf:
Epyon
Epyon is the reason wars like this can happen.
No matter how many people can point the finger at the agressor (Huzbulah) that kind of mindset can never be changed.
There are things that one must stand up and fight. When 200+ missiles a day come from the country next door, which happens to be run by terrorists, that happen to proclaim that your country, you and your kind must be wiped off the face of the earth... its time to fight.
The US and the UN can suck the big one on this.... its a fight for nothing less than survival of a nation.
There is no grey area... you are simply trying to find a place so you don't offend the people who are 10000% correct in thier actions.
Shame on the USA for not carpet bombing Lebanon into the stone age. SHame on the citizens of the USA for not shouting LOUD AND CLEAR that terrorists cannot rule a nation, and that nations cannot exist for the sole purpose of exterminating thier neighbors.
The SAD fact is that the USA and our meddling HAS caused EVERY ONE OF THE MIDDLE EASTS PROBLEMS. We supported IRAN. We CREATED Saddam. We GAVE US TAX DOLLARS TO THE PLO because they have nothing of an economy but for the money it makes by blowing up israeli citizens.... paid for by IRANIAN OIL MONEY WE GIVE THEM.
The USA is a great country... run by the biggest group of inbred A$$H0L3S in Washington DC. If it weren't for the kick ass meusuems in DC I would say nuke it from orbit and start over again.
No matter how many people can point the finger at the agressor (Huzbulah) that kind of mindset can never be changed.
There are things that one must stand up and fight. When 200+ missiles a day come from the country next door, which happens to be run by terrorists, that happen to proclaim that your country, you and your kind must be wiped off the face of the earth... its time to fight.
The US and the UN can suck the big one on this.... its a fight for nothing less than survival of a nation.
There is no grey area... you are simply trying to find a place so you don't offend the people who are 10000% correct in thier actions.
Shame on the USA for not carpet bombing Lebanon into the stone age. SHame on the citizens of the USA for not shouting LOUD AND CLEAR that terrorists cannot rule a nation, and that nations cannot exist for the sole purpose of exterminating thier neighbors.
The SAD fact is that the USA and our meddling HAS caused EVERY ONE OF THE MIDDLE EASTS PROBLEMS. We supported IRAN. We CREATED Saddam. We GAVE US TAX DOLLARS TO THE PLO because they have nothing of an economy but for the money it makes by blowing up israeli citizens.... paid for by IRANIAN OIL MONEY WE GIVE THEM.
The USA is a great country... run by the biggest group of inbred A$$H0L3S in Washington DC. If it weren't for the kick ass meusuems in DC I would say nuke it from orbit and start over again.
Yellowlab..
Please tell me how so? I never said let Israel stop, nor did I say let Hezbollah take over. Never had I said to stop or continue an action. I do agree with just about everything you've said about the U.S. government though.
I understand your sentiments, but why is it that other nations such as those in Africa and Central America are put on the back burner and left to fend for themselves? If America was truly interested in freedom for others I would think they would change their methodolgy in who gets help and how a country should be reformed. In other words helping a country because it's the right thing, not because there's oil there or that we planted a dictator there decades ago. However, I would have to disagree with the U.S. carpet bombing Lebanon into the stone age, that is up to Israel since they were under attack to begin with NOT America, our troops are already in a mess with Iraq. It's easy to make statements about carpet bombing a nation but when the civilian casualties are your family and friends your sentiments and thoughts change about a lot of things. One could also say your statement as warmongering. Our fight is with Al Qaeda, and why is it that bin Laden has just fallen out of the picture if he's public enemy number one? If we have the top military and recon technology in the world why the f*(& haven't we caught him yet? I think it's just a ruse just to continue keeping us in fear, as long as bin Laden is out there we have to huddle together with our gas masks and duct tape. I'm sick of being fed fear, and I refuse to think that having my Constitutional rights barred by ANYONE will keep me safe.
Epyon
Please tell me how so? I never said let Israel stop, nor did I say let Hezbollah take over. Never had I said to stop or continue an action. I do agree with just about everything you've said about the U.S. government though.
I understand your sentiments, but why is it that other nations such as those in Africa and Central America are put on the back burner and left to fend for themselves? If America was truly interested in freedom for others I would think they would change their methodolgy in who gets help and how a country should be reformed. In other words helping a country because it's the right thing, not because there's oil there or that we planted a dictator there decades ago. However, I would have to disagree with the U.S. carpet bombing Lebanon into the stone age, that is up to Israel since they were under attack to begin with NOT America, our troops are already in a mess with Iraq. It's easy to make statements about carpet bombing a nation but when the civilian casualties are your family and friends your sentiments and thoughts change about a lot of things. One could also say your statement as warmongering. Our fight is with Al Qaeda, and why is it that bin Laden has just fallen out of the picture if he's public enemy number one? If we have the top military and recon technology in the world why the f*(& haven't we caught him yet? I think it's just a ruse just to continue keeping us in fear, as long as bin Laden is out there we have to huddle together with our gas masks and duct tape. I'm sick of being fed fear, and I refuse to think that having my Constitutional rights barred by ANYONE will keep me safe.
Epyon
Holy crap... this is Jihad!!
or should I say, "Holy Jihad...this is crap!"
Your agenda is to put down our United States government and our allies in the anti-terror war...
Better yet... to Iraq...
or Mexico...
or Egypt...
or Syria...
or Venezuela...
or Cuba...
or Russia...
or Uganda...
or, or, or, or... maybe YOU'D prefer a nice dictatorial Muslim theocracy like Iran. :barf:
I see what you're saying about trying to stay in the middle political-party-wise, but you've already staked out your position on certain issues, so I wouldn't say you're trying to stay in the middle.
Right and wrong is pretty easy to figure out. If those displaced folks - referred to as Palestinians and mistreated for genertions by those who took them in and still claim to be their friends - think they will win by bombing schools and marketplaces they are wrong.
Many of the missle launchers in Lebanon appear to be hidden in homes and other populated areas. They are hiding behind civilians and hoping some of them are killed so they can thump their chests and crank up the PR machine. I really like that Golda Meir quote: "We can forgive them for killing our children, but we cannot forgive them for making us kill theirs".
"if the Native Americans said they were fed up with living on reservations and decided to fight back to retake their land, who is right and wrong? "
They would be right. They would lose, but they'd be right. If they bombed schools and buses and marketplaces they'd still lose AND they'd be despised.
John
Right and wrong is pretty easy to figure out. If those displaced folks - referred to as Palestinians and mistreated for genertions by those who took them in and still claim to be their friends - think they will win by bombing schools and marketplaces they are wrong.
Many of the missle launchers in Lebanon appear to be hidden in homes and other populated areas. They are hiding behind civilians and hoping some of them are killed so they can thump their chests and crank up the PR machine. I really like that Golda Meir quote: "We can forgive them for killing our children, but we cannot forgive them for making us kill theirs".
"if the Native Americans said they were fed up with living on reservations and decided to fight back to retake their land, who is right and wrong? "
They would be right. They would lose, but they'd be right. If they bombed schools and buses and marketplaces they'd still lose AND they'd be despised.
John
Pointer...
As I have stated in my other posts on this thread; I have a Constitutional right to speak my mind if I'm not satisfied with our current government, just because I don't like the current administration doesn't mean I'm against America, and doesn't mean that I think we shouldn't stop terrorism, and when exactly did I say that I'm against America's allies? One could argue that your defensivness of the current administration is just party-line thinking. I do think terrorism has to be stemmed, but at the same time I disagree in losing my Constitutional rights as a citizen in order to fight it, how exactly does that make me anti-American? If you do like the current administration, might I add that you should also be ready to live under an iron fist after the infractions the government has incurred upon the Constitution with laws such as the Patriot Act and the draft of a new bill that extends the power to detain indefinately and circumvents the Bill of Rights. http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2006/07/28/ap2912810.html
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218114
This draft is against the American CITIZEN! Not some jihadi in the middle of the desert, you, me, a good number of people on this forum. Now do you see why I am in protest? Think I should apply for citizenship to Cuba? I hear Castro's about to croak soon, might as well start packing now.
To johnbdt you're valid I like your opposing remarks, I can't argue with you there +1 to you. However, would you agree that suicide bombing is an act of desperation done by people who have lost all hope, and have nothing to lose by doing it? Also thank you for answering my hypothetical question, now for another one. If Native Americans did bomb schools, busses, and marketplaces obviously they'd be despised, but would they still be right? (Considering the terrible things that were done to them.)
Epyon
As I have stated in my other posts on this thread; I have a Constitutional right to speak my mind if I'm not satisfied with our current government, just because I don't like the current administration doesn't mean I'm against America, and doesn't mean that I think we shouldn't stop terrorism, and when exactly did I say that I'm against America's allies? One could argue that your defensivness of the current administration is just party-line thinking. I do think terrorism has to be stemmed, but at the same time I disagree in losing my Constitutional rights as a citizen in order to fight it, how exactly does that make me anti-American? If you do like the current administration, might I add that you should also be ready to live under an iron fist after the infractions the government has incurred upon the Constitution with laws such as the Patriot Act and the draft of a new bill that extends the power to detain indefinately and circumvents the Bill of Rights. http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2006/07/28/ap2912810.html
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218114
This draft is against the American CITIZEN! Not some jihadi in the middle of the desert, you, me, a good number of people on this forum. Now do you see why I am in protest? Think I should apply for citizenship to Cuba? I hear Castro's about to croak soon, might as well start packing now.
To johnbdt you're valid I like your opposing remarks, I can't argue with you there +1 to you. However, would you agree that suicide bombing is an act of desperation done by people who have lost all hope, and have nothing to lose by doing it? Also thank you for answering my hypothetical question, now for another one. If Native Americans did bomb schools, busses, and marketplaces obviously they'd be despised, but would they still be right? (Considering the terrible things that were done to them.)
Epyon
Esquire M Busterbury
Moderator
Epyon, you just touched on a good point. One thing I've wondered is why noone considers what must happen to a person before they decide to kiss their family goodbye & strap a bomb to their chests. Or why 9/11 actually happend (and without using the phrase 'religous fundamentalism' OR 'Hate our freedom'). But it seems that before we could get that far we collectively changed the channel as a nation (idol was on)...oh well, whatcha gonna do? (Revolution!! Wait, Dallas Swat's on...You guys go on, I'll be there in a minute)
Esquire M Busterbury...
I think you just helped me find a clue into something... why would a sucide bomber do such a thing? It's not always religion, it's loss of hope or loss of everything that means something to them because of an institution or situation they are not satisfied with. What can cause a loss of hope? When people are ignored and are in need. Why is it that there are even women and children suicide bombers? Because they see all this chaos that consumes families regardless of who is right or wrong, and so the only thing they think of is blowing up their problems, literally. By the way, your points are startlingly true, people these days seem to want to be spoon fed by TV and accept it as truth and reality, and hope that someone else does their civic duty for them so that they don't miss American Idol, and Survivor. When their rights are trampled many think that nothing can be done about it because the government's word can't be disputed, last I checked only dictatorships function like that. The first step to correcting the mistakes our nation has made, is for everyone to partake in their civic duty, not delegate it to someone else and hope that it works out somehow in the long run, not be okay with the "status quo" just to fit in with the norm. Exercising your rights are just like muscles, the more you use them the stronger your rights, stop using them and they become weaker.
Epyon
I think you just helped me find a clue into something... why would a sucide bomber do such a thing? It's not always religion, it's loss of hope or loss of everything that means something to them because of an institution or situation they are not satisfied with. What can cause a loss of hope? When people are ignored and are in need. Why is it that there are even women and children suicide bombers? Because they see all this chaos that consumes families regardless of who is right or wrong, and so the only thing they think of is blowing up their problems, literally. By the way, your points are startlingly true, people these days seem to want to be spoon fed by TV and accept it as truth and reality, and hope that someone else does their civic duty for them so that they don't miss American Idol, and Survivor. When their rights are trampled many think that nothing can be done about it because the government's word can't be disputed, last I checked only dictatorships function like that. The first step to correcting the mistakes our nation has made, is for everyone to partake in their civic duty, not delegate it to someone else and hope that it works out somehow in the long run, not be okay with the "status quo" just to fit in with the norm. Exercising your rights are just like muscles, the more you use them the stronger your rights, stop using them and they become weaker.
Epyon
Esquire M Busterbury
Moderator
I read somewhere that the only way to overcome violence was through understanding. And that violence only breeds more violence.
"Why? I ask you this in all seriousness. Why stay in the great undecided gray area in the middle when it is possible to make a decision based on right and wrong? Take a stand."
John, do you feel that it's possibly or rational to make an informed decision from across the breadth of the entire globe while only being fed, forgive my english, B*llsh*t newswise? Or because of our american heritage do we already know everything? I'm not trying to take a swipe at anyone who's made up their mind on who's right and who's wrong in the great middle eastern 'issue'...but C'MON. There are three sides to EVERYTHING. One side, the other side, and the TRUTH. And frankly, I don't think that many of us here have digested enough good truth to make a valid assesment as to who's the REAL problem in the middle east. (But I know it's the truth, someone said so!)
They can all go sit on a hot coal for all I care.
& for the record...
"I'm not a racist, I hate everyone equally".
"Why? I ask you this in all seriousness. Why stay in the great undecided gray area in the middle when it is possible to make a decision based on right and wrong? Take a stand."
John, do you feel that it's possibly or rational to make an informed decision from across the breadth of the entire globe while only being fed, forgive my english, B*llsh*t newswise? Or because of our american heritage do we already know everything? I'm not trying to take a swipe at anyone who's made up their mind on who's right and who's wrong in the great middle eastern 'issue'...but C'MON. There are three sides to EVERYTHING. One side, the other side, and the TRUTH. And frankly, I don't think that many of us here have digested enough good truth to make a valid assesment as to who's the REAL problem in the middle east. (But I know it's the truth, someone said so!)
They can all go sit on a hot coal for all I care.
& for the record...
"I'm not a racist, I hate everyone equally".
Wow...
Esquire M Busterbury, I will admit that I thought I was going to have to face this alone, I already knew that there was going to be heavy opposition when I made this thread. Of course me being human, I am relieved I'm not the only one who isn't afraid to question what everyone else says, I do understand I'm going against popular opinion but I am also glad to see I'm not alone.
Epyon
Esquire M Busterbury, I will admit that I thought I was going to have to face this alone, I already knew that there was going to be heavy opposition when I made this thread. Of course me being human, I am relieved I'm not the only one who isn't afraid to question what everyone else says, I do understand I'm going against popular opinion but I am also glad to see I'm not alone.
Epyon
WELL SAID!
This is either the typical liberal bait and switch or we have a fundamental difference in our understanding of the language...
i.e.
The Government of the United States is the best damned government in the history of the world...
It is still in question as to where the Bush Administration stands in the history of the United States...
The one thing that makes Bush shine is his willingness to take a stand and DO SOMETHING instead of wringing his hands and complaining about what the other administration hasn't done.
If the OPPOSITION would rally around the traditional American ideals of good manners and unity in wartime, and stop opposing everything the Bush administration does JUST FOR THE SAKE of opposing, and for their political futures, and just for the sake of stirring it up... well surely you can see the benefits to be realized in relation to a more effective governing of our nation...
I do not fault or disallow your right to express an opposition...
But, there is very little room for doubt that you are, in fact, motivated more by seeing how much "trouble" you can stir up...
"You can't stir it up without getting some of it on ya'."
Esquire M Busterbury
Moderator
Not to beat a dead horse's bones but those 10-15 minutes reading children's books on 9/11 spoke volumes. Presidents with polio could/would have stood and done something before he did. As for his 'confident' strides, they have seemingly led us down a pretty dark path (and one of which he has no qualms about leaving for someone else to clean up. Is he not already resigned to this?) But at least he wasn't 'wringing his hands' when he did it. So strong, him...we should put paitings of our fearless leader in all the town squares...so that we may draw strength from his visage.
On an unrelated note, why didn't the secret service wisk him off at the first sign of trouble? Instead of simply informing him that the country was under attack, why wasn't he informed on his way the heck outta there?
Camp David
New member
Pointer said:
Excellent post Pointer... Bush's presidency will be judged in light of the growing fanatical Muslim terrorism that no other president in U.S. history had to face in quite the same degree... I support George W. Bush and always will. In the same terms of defending their nation, I support the IDF and the Israelis in their fight against terror...
Esquire M Busterbury
Moderator
One thing I always liked about bush was that he believes the same thing on wednesday as he did on monday. Regardless of what may have happened on tuesday. I like that kind of steadfast determination. The willingness to break before he bends.
fanatical Muslim terrorism. Because that's exactly what's discussed in the PNAC mission statement. A tactical presence in the middle east was just a happy little bonus, no?
Why would religious fanatics attack a financial institution. Wait! Don't answer that. Or ask it. Has no bearing on any issue.
Damn, tried as I might I got pulled into this pissing contest again. Donning asbestos suit now...
Hey pointer, what about the very american trait of dissent? Or doesn't that play second fiddle to shutting up & getting out the way? No playing neutral against a moving train.
And just for the sake of opposing? Maybe some partisan hacks but the rest of us do it simply because it feels right. (ok, maybe I do it just to piss off the rest of my family but...) But thanks for painting all dissenters with the same brush, how unpatriotic of us. I see the light now.
fanatical Muslim terrorism. Because that's exactly what's discussed in the PNAC mission statement. A tactical presence in the middle east was just a happy little bonus, no?
Why would religious fanatics attack a financial institution. Wait! Don't answer that. Or ask it. Has no bearing on any issue.
Damn, tried as I might I got pulled into this pissing contest again. Donning asbestos suit now...
Hey pointer, what about the very american trait of dissent? Or doesn't that play second fiddle to shutting up & getting out the way? No playing neutral against a moving train.
And just for the sake of opposing? Maybe some partisan hacks but the rest of us do it simply because it feels right. (ok, maybe I do it just to piss off the rest of my family but...) But thanks for painting all dissenters with the same brush, how unpatriotic of us. I see the light now.