The other side of the coin...

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Epyon

New member
Okay, before you click on these links, I want everyone to know that I am NOT in support of EITHER side in this stupid Middle East war. However, seeing as American news (just like ANY news agency) is biased I wanted to show these videos that approach the conflict in a different perspective. Most of these videos talk about the Palestinians more than the current Hezbollah conflict. The only thing I ask of everyone who see the videos is to keep an open mind, and I hope that everyone who thinks they should side with Israel just because "America" backs Israel should reconsider taking sides on a conflict that they themselves are not even a part of. Why is it our business to support or condemn any side of this stupid war? I hate the militants who hide behind women and children, and give their religion a bad name. However when your people are pushed to poverty, and there's nothing left for you what can you do if the world doesn't listen? I also hate occupying forces that destroy the displaced population just because they think that their diety has promised them that land, and feel that their answer is genocide yet should understand better after experiencing it themselves. (I am not counting dicatorships being occupied because that's a seperate topic all on its own.)
WARNING: Some of these videos contain graphic images, use your discretion.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vnaf8R_SJo
A clip of a long speech given by Arundhati Roy. For the full version of this great speech download it from here http://weroy.org/watch.shtml

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVKjMfB42ZU
A summary given by an Israeli attorney

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHA2NLzrcYE
Some of the text of the video may go by too quickly, so just pause the video as needed.

Epyon


P.S: I understand that everyone is free to express their own opinions, feel free to do so. I just want this to be a polite debate if anything.
 
Flip a coin is more like it

Both sides have been going at it since time immemorial. I dont think this thread will fly. Nice try though.

HQ
 
I think our government should worry more about this country going to hell as it is. Let them kill each other if they want to. They have been doing it forever anyway.
I suppose when it's over we'll have to go in and rebuild both countries with millions of dollars and supplies like we are Nam and soon Iraq and everywhere else we've stuck our nose into somebody elses buisness.
Either that or just go in and nuke all the warring countries and put them out of their misery.

Kill em' all,let God sort em' out?

I wonder how many countries would help us if we were the ones getting bombed...think about it. They all hate us.
America is trying to be a world ruler. Greed has overcome. It won't work long that way.
 
Well, the videos were an interesting watch (except the last one (more on that later)... But they haven't exactly helped to sway me towards the Palestinian perspective.

Both Jews and Arabs have owned what is now modern-day Israel at different points in history. Both therefore can say it was their land untill the other guy took it. Both also can say that it's their by divine right, as both have religeons dictating that the land is theirs.

Either way, regardless of which side is right, I don't think US taxpayers should be funding either side. Nor do I believe the US gov't should be responsible for funding or supplying the Israeli government. Especially now that Israel hase extended operations well beyond defence of its own borders.

Foreign conflicts between foreign nations should be fought with foreign money, right?

Of course, if I had to pick sides, I'd lean pro-Israel. Afterall, they've at least made an effort to differentiate between civilian and military targets... Unlike the bus-bombing Palestinians who think a crowded market is the best target because it incites the most fear.

By the way... Even though those first two videos were somewhat rational, I'd have to say that the last video you linked was just propaganda, pure and simple.

Michael Moore, the Democrats, Republicans, and even the Bradys have used the "random horrific quotes" tactic before... Take a few of the worst sounding quotes, some out of context, from the worst individuals on one side... Then use that like a big brush and paint all the people of that side with it.

It's a dirty trick, regardless of how well it works.

Anyways, that's my two cents...

Respectfully,
Wolfe.
 
A Democracy vs. the culture that gave us 9/11, the Marine barracks, that blow up pizza parlors full of kids, that machine guns people in the Vienna airport, that threw a grenade into the heliocopter full of captured Israeli Olympic atheletes, that machine gunned a school bus full of kids, that blew up the Embassies in Africa, that blew up Jewish Centers in Argentina, that attacked the Cole, that ... Or how about honor murder of women who were raped?

I'm going to say this strongly - the moral choice is Israel. Given the choice they would live in peace and compensate those whose land was occupied in 1948. Such compensation was refused.

The Israelis fight for their existence. Their enemies preach genocide. Unfortunately, their incompetence in battle made them fail at the Second Holocaust.

They defend themselves. People on a gun list should get that. However, not to support is at its core based on venial self-interest (oil), a lack of morality or anti-semitism. Probably all three.

To claim that the Israelis are committing genocide is goddamn ridiculous. War is hell and are there camps? No - you are sitting in the US - go break down and cry over what happened to the Native Americans and our seizure of half of Mexico. There was horror there and my point is that no conflict is without pain.

It is a simple battle - the Israelis have flaws but they are right.
 
I am not surprised that folks with agendas are flooding forums with junk like this. The battle for the hearts and minds of Americans is not a difficult one. Offer up a few pics of dead kids, and whoa, you have a convert.
Bottom line is that Iran is pushing its version of how the Middle East should be. They control Hezbollah, its their creation. Iran has ordered Hezbollah to attack Israel, and cares nothing for the deaths that result. Fact is, for Iran, the more dead babies there are, the better.
Golda Meir said "we can forgive them for killing our children, but we cannot forgive them for making us kill theirs".
The butchers bill needs to be paid by Iran, Damascus, and the other muslim facists that are orchestrating this destruction.
 
I listened...
I was moved ...
Then I questioned...

Even the anti-zionist media-press records that the "closures" and "confiscations" and "destructions" of Palestinian property were ALL instigated by the PLO "terrorisms" and "suicide bombings".

Just as now... the "wall" and the WAR were instigated by Hezbollah attacks...
The Israelis have made every effort to live peaceably in a very dangerous coexistence with Palestinian Muslims... They are completely surrounded by Arab Nations which have sworn to utterly destroy them and... they make that attempt every day from behind the skirts of non-combatants and their own children...

There is a tradition, long established throughout history, that "To the victor go the spoils".
Yet, the Israelis once prevailed in a war started by Egypt and supported by the others and after winning that war they voluntarily gave back all the conquered territory...including the Gaza Strip

They would like nothing more than to be left alone to live in peace in THEIR very small country.

Also, there is something to be said about the chaos and twisted thinking that the Paletinian propaganda is perpetuating... such as Israel doesn't have a right to defend themselves against attacks... nor retaliate... nor even live in Palestine. And that the United States hasn't got similar rights.

These are completely false and perverse statements... :mad:

Ancient history has the land known as Palestine originally belonging to the Twelve Tribes of Israel, and the Arabic kingdoms taking it from them and marching their people into captivity and slavery... It is NOT, and has NEVER been, the other way around!
 
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Epyon said:
Okay, before you click on these links, I want everyone to know that I am NOT in support of EITHER side in this stupid Middle East war.
Click to expand...

Ok, you're not on either side of... "this stupid"... war. Interesting.

All I know is this is America, and I'm sick of hearing Americans bash MY country.
 
And now some input from me...

To Supertac... I'm not doing this to instigate or take sides, I'm just posting information that I think may have some degree of validity, I never was trying to convince taking sides.

To ZingZang... you said:
Ok, you're not on either side of... "this stupid"... war. Interesting.

All I know is this is America, and I'm sick of hearing Americans bash MY country.
Click to expand...

Please explain how my post pertains to "bashing America"? As for "this stupid war" I'm talking about, I'm NOT talking about Iraq that issue is like beating a dead horse at this point, I am talking about Israelis vs. Arabs. By the way, I do love this country, I just hate my government and that is my right to state that I hate our current rulers.


To everyone else, I know that many Americans are pro-Israeli, I'm not trying to make anyone switch sides. Quite honestly, I really don't care about Israel good or bad because in truth it has nothing to do with America at least in my mind, if the Israelis want their land so badly, then they can fight for it on their own. We are the NOT the United States of Israel, so why are we letting the government waste our tax money to give weapons to a foreign country, and rather good weapons in comparison to the outdated weapons we sell to others, might I add. Is it because America has guilt issues about letting the Holocaust occur during a time when the United States was relatively anti-Semetic? Two things before I end my statement. First, I was not trying to make anything seem like propaganda, my aim is to try to present information from a different perspective mainly because I try to get news even if it doesn't follow the popular idea of where I live, so whether these videos seem "anti-Israeli" it may be so because we're used to the US news being "pro-Israeli". (I use those terms rather loosely.) Second, from my experience, it's rather interesting that the west is pro-Israel, yet when I've spoken to people in the east they are anti-Israel, the level of their feelings are about equal on either side of the scale. Yet whenever I ask the question to either side, "Why does it matter to you? You're not that country" it always slides into the debate of religion/morality, and ethnic supremacy. Funny how humans always have to think they are so supreme at everything they do.:(


Epyon
 
"Why does it matter to you? You're not that country"
Click to expand...

As for me...

I despise a bully...

I will always defend the oppressed and persecuted and outnumbered...

If the arabic nations don't want war then they shouldn't try so hard to start one...

THEY WANT A WORLD SCALE WAR THAT WILL GIVE THEM LEGITIMACY IN SLAUGHTERING EVERYONE BUT MUSLIMS AND THEY DON'T CARE HOW MANY MUSLIMS THEY MUST KILL TO GET IT!!
 
Epyon said:
I do love this country, I just hate my government
Click to expand...

Don't pretend to love MY country if you don't love MY government. They go hand in hand. You may hate MY country, but I sure as hell love it!

I hear Canada is accepting applications. Maybe you should apply.
 
Sorry Epyon,

...but it seems that you might have an agenda here. I read your second post twice to be sure, but I am convinced now that you do.

There may not be a clear right or wrong here, but Heza-whatever-bulahrara started this one. How many times does someone have to be punched in the nose before it is alright to fight back? The reason we support Israel is because they are not agressors in any of the conflicts they have ever been in. They have a very clear program of retaliation, but I don't belive that they have a history of striking first. Or if they do, it is a short list. Women and children dying is a shame, but both sides have civilian casualtys. The only way there will ever be peace there is if the Arabs quit hiting Israel in the nose.

I hope we keep on helping Israel with weapons and ammo at the very least. I am less happy with the thought of sending them actual money, but I figure weapons is the least we can do. And as long as Israel is not the aggressor, I will continue my support, and I hope my country does as well.

It isn't like we have so many freinds in this world to allow one to be destroyed.
 
To The Guy...

What brings you to the conclusion that I have an agenda? I don't know any other way to state that I'm NOT trying to push an agenda here, just trying to show the same event in different perspective, I am fully aware that not everyone will agree and that this would open a can of worms but I'd rather have it discussed than ignored as if one side is always right all the time. Yes, I fully understand that there is negative stigma attached to thinking outside "the norm" but I took that risk in wanting to know what other's reactions would be. I guess if I had an agenda it would be to try to get stories from every side and intepret it as best I can.

To ZingZang, you really seem to like to ignore my more important questions to you and just jab at my lesser statements. I said I hate the CURRENT rulers, NOT the form of government there is a difference. Also you missed the part where I said I have the RIGHT to say that. Please explain how one person can claim ownership of a government that is owned more by business than the actual citizens? This isn't a dicatorship/theocracy/ethnic dominance society, therfore it's ridiculous to condemn or wish people to leave just because you don't see eye to eye with them. Again, just to reiterate the question you ignored, how am I "bashing America" as you so put it, by making this thread? (By the way, please feel free to pm me if you'd rather discuss this privately in order to keep this thread on topic.)

To everyone else, I'm glad to see reactions of all kinds even if I don't agree, I still respect everyone's decision on why they do or don't support what's going on. I hope to hear more.


Epyon
 
Epyon,

Well I do admire your courage in your posting of this subject on a forum where you KNEW you would take a bit o' heat. And while I may disagree with what you said, will defend your right to say it.

Now, the reason most here support Israel is not out of guilt over our grand or great grandfathers maybe being anti semetic. It is because of the TERRORISM practiced against a country that just wants to live in peace. The govement is the same. And America did not "let" the holocaust happen. Hitler MADE it happen.

What out dated weapons are we selling other countries. The pics I see in time and newsweek show M-16's and AK-47's in the hands of combatants in other countries (South America, Indochina, etc.) or FAL's. Only the poorest of rebels use the Lee-Enfeild any more. (and look at what it did to the Soviets!)

"feeling guilt" and "letting someone do something bad" are liberal type statements. That, along with the ethnic superiority statement, made me feel that you had an agenda. It seems that persons who say "I have no agenda" the loudest often are the ones most guilty of having one. This is not fact, just my general observation.

I feel like there is more for me to say but I have said enough.
 
Modern day Israel is not the Israel established by the CREATOR,but will be again. The arabs are not the same people they were 2,000 years ago.Satanic forces are in control of the world and it's governments for the time being.Until YAHSHUA'S return the violence and blood-shed will continue and there's nothing you can do about it.Unfortunately by the time of YAHSHUA'S return,four out of five of every human-being on earth will be dead.The CREATOR will not intervene until this is done.Man-kind must prove to themselves that their Satanic governments don't work,and they will soon.
 
I see...

To The Guy, I understand now. Yeah, my views tend to be more liberal in the western sense I won't argue that. I do however try to stay to the middle, but I understand there are times when my views can be seen as more liberal than conservative. As for outdated weapons, I believe we gave Taiwan some frigates back in '97 (it was a newspaper article in the Orlando Sentinel, I was in high school at the time.) no longer in service to make room for our more advanced warships. I don't remember the entire article, but I believe we also gave them some F-15s because now we have the F-22s to replace them. (I still kinda miss the F-15s, they had a nice sleek look to them. I guess F-22s are like the Glocks of jets?)

Odd-Job, though you are entitled to your opinion, please keep in mind that not everyone here is Christian. I will have to say, that I don't agree with your opinion at all because I don't share those beliefs.


Epyon
 
As for the "Palestinians", too bad, so sad. They have created the mess. They operate with an amoral methodology that deserves nothing but contempt.

As for this:

Don't pretend to love MY country if you don't love MY government. They go hand in hand. You may hate MY country, but I sure as hell love it!
Click to expand...

I would hope nobody seriously mistakes the government, any level but especially that part which cringes within the Beltway, as being OUR country. Our nation is us, and our Rights. The government is just a collection of generally shallow, stupid people looking for some ego-boost. It's entirely possible to truly loathe the government, both the people of the moment and the bloated behemoth it has become over time, and still love our country.
 
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