The Other Side of the Coin

Mistakes kill.

What do you say to the person that you've just killed and then just realized that you hit the wrong house, hotel room, etc... Sorry? Sorry doesn't cut it and they shouldn't get away with it (the LEO's or the Feds).

Not to be the one that starts this on the path that you believe that it will go down but a mistake that takes an innocent human life is not worth making. You and others may think so but I don't. I'm as conservative as they come but I don't think that taking a life and then it being an oops is a good enough reason.

LEO's want to go home at night, so do those that they make the oops upon. LEO's want to spend time with their family, so do the ones that they make the oops upon. LEO's wish to live, so do those that they make an oops on.

In their zeal to make an arrest, and getting away with making mistakes, I don't consider that acceptable. If they would get off our backs and allow the people to protect themselves and to help in the fight of crime, maybe so many mistakes wouldn't be made and the world would be a better place.

No, any mistake that takes an American life who is innocent of any crime, is unacceptable, PERIOD!.

Wayne
 
Whoa capt charlie, are you saying that in an effort to stop one druggie from killing another druggie, that collateral damage to innocents is acceptable? Thats the real world? Uh, ok.
 
What do you say to the person that you've just killed and then just realized that you hit the wrong house, hotel room, etc... Sorry? Sorry doesn't cut it and they shouldn't get away with it (the LEO's or the Feds).
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There it is, and that's the bottom line for me. I support any and all law enforcement agencies, until they kill innocent people. "Mistake?" No
excuse. Criminal charges should be filed against ANY LEO who kills an
innocent person "by mistake".

I can hear the police unions crying now, "That would drive out many good
cops, and would hamper our recruiting, if that were the law." Good.
Maybe the quality of officers would improve so that there would be no more killing of "wrong" people.

I've heard it said many times that law enforcement officers are held to a "higher standard" than the average citizen. They should be. And that
"immunity" law should be abolished. ANYBODY who wrongfully takes a
life should be held accountable.

Basically I would not want an honest mistake to hinder the police in the future...
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A mistake by an LEO that kills an innocent person
is not a mistake. It is a crime. It should be treated as a crime.

Walter
 
Whoa capt charlie, are you saying that in an effort to stop one druggie from killing another druggie, that collateral damage to innocents is acceptable? Thats the real world? Uh, ok.
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I absolutely, positively am NOT saying that! The LAST thing ANY peace officer wants is to take a human life, let alone an innocent one! That is why we train, train, and train again! My comment was directed at those that think everything always goes according to Hoyle, and that you should always do surveillance, take photos, etc. That's right and great in a perfect world, but it doesn't always work that way, as I think my post showed pretty well.

And Walter...
A mistake by an LEO that kills an innocent person
is not a mistake. It is a crime. It should be treated as a crime.
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What about the cop that answers a call to a burglary in progress, and while checking a poorly lighted room, sees a person pointing a gun at him? He shoots, only to find it was a 14 yr. old boy pointing a cap gun. The boy was killed. The cop later tried to take his own life over it. True story. VERY tragic ending for everybody. But let's put you in this cop's place and see what you'd do? I wonder if you'd go placidly to prison over it saying "Gee, I got what I deserved". I think not.
 
Having a SWAT team mistakenly break down your door is a friggin' scary thought. You probably won't understand the word "POLICE" being shouted when your ears are ringing from the flashbangs tossed in the room. :eek:

I had someone bang loudly and repeatedly on the door to my home late at night (looking for a previous tenant). Rather unnecessary, as I had a perfectly operational doorbell. I was sitting in the computer room, with my shotgun on top of the computer desk (about six feet off the ground, over the monitor, out of sight). I was at the front door with it in a few seconds after the beating of the door began.

Point is, someone kicking in my front door and tossing flashbangs in might find themselves on the business end of a Mossberg 500, CZ-52, or Kel-Tec Sub-2000 (depending on what room I'm in at the time). I'm sure it's no different for most of you.

What's interesting is how so many of you say you will not resist and will, in fact, comply when someone runs in yelling 'police.' If any criminals are reading this, they've found out a great new way to rob even gun owners without resistance. Buy some BDU's and baclavas and a plastic badge.

I don't want to shoot anyone who made an honest mistake (raiding the wrong place). But I can't guarantee it wouldn't happen in a frenzied situation like this.

Sounds like a good reason to make your abode raid-resistant. Strong doors, windows, etc. Force an accidental 'no-knock' warrant into a 'knock' warrant or maybe a 'phone call' warrant, so you can arrange a peaceful meeting with the LEOs outside your door (or through a window!) so you can show them your ID and kindly tell them they have the wrong place.
 
Other side of the coin

We live in the sticks, if LEOs come, the dogs will raise hell, we will do what the SO says, they know I am a CHL holder, rest assured we will not endanger ourselves.

On the other hand one Ron or Lon Horiuchi, an FBI murderer who killed an unarmed woman holding a baby in her arms is on the loose and un indicted after all these years. If the Feds come calling they will kill you in a microsecond and cover up and lie their way to Washington!
 
What about the cop that answers a call to a burglary in progress, and while checking a poorly lighted room, sees a person pointing a gun at him? He shoots, only to find it was a 14 yr. old boy pointing a cap gun. The boy was killed. The cop later tried to take his own life over it. True story. VERY tragic ending for everybody. But let's put you in this cop's place and see what you'd do? I wonder if you'd go placidly to prison over it saying "Gee, I got what I deserved". I think not.
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Capt Charlie, With all due respect, I don't find your argument compelling.
I spent many months in Southeast Asia in 1969 and 1970 as a rifle Marine
in a "line" company. During my second tour, the engagement rule was,
"You may not fire unless fired upon". We saw a lot of "bad" guys who we
KNEW were "bad" guys, but since they weren't shooting at us, they got
away 'scot-free'.

Fire control discipline is a hard thing to learn, but police officers should not
be immune from having to learn it. After all, their primary job is
"protecting" US.

Walter
 
Uh huh. So you're saying that, if Charlie pointed an AK or an RPG at you, you'd wait until he fired before you did. Sorry, they'd have to court marshall me, but at least I'd be alive.
 
They wont be able to break down my door with a ram, shotgun or demo charges at the lock and hinges. If so they would have to use lots of force and noise. This again would hopefully give me enough time to call the police and sort things out. If not there will a long time in court...... Now you probably want to know what kind of door i have.. Guess.... :p
 
Shooting a 14 year old during a burglary in progress call is way different from serving a no knock warrant on the wrong home. That is literally the breaks as opposed to planning and carrying out a military action on s sleeping household.

In my own case it's Feds that bother me. All of the local guys are good friends and customers, Feds don't like to do business with them because they won't indulge in unconstitutional activity or allow federal grandstanding.

Sam
 
I agree with Walter 100%.

If I live through such a raid I will certainly go to extremes to get justice. There is no way anyone can justify a mistaken raid.
 
I know of at least one case

where a raid was conducted on the wrong house...Homeowners Rottweiler (who obviously saw a threat to his "people" was shot and killed (although it took 4 rounds, and hedid some serious damage to the cops involved,before they killed him). Luckilynone of the homeowners family was injured. The upshot was that because "it was just a dog" police felt no need to compensate for their mistake.

I just think that in 99% of most cases, these "mistakes" could be avoided...If their not ABSOLUTELY sure they have the right place, they shouldn't be conducting a raid.

I know that if I was awakened by someone crashing into my house, I'm gonna be a little disoriented, and I'm going for a gun...and I'll probably wind up dead
 
Uh huh. So you're saying that, if Charlie pointed an AK or an RPG at you, you'd wait until he fired before you did. Sorry, they'd have to court marshall me, but at least I'd be alive.
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That's not what I said, but I am guilty of using a bad analogy. Of course,
if we saw weapons aimed at us, we could defend ourselves. My point was
that many times we knew who the "bad guys" were, but they either
weren't carrying weapons, or weren't displaying them. In that situation, it
was "don't fire unless fired upon". That rule was seldom broken, and the punishment was severe, if it was.

My bad analogy was in comparing our wartime situation to that of a cop on
a call where there might be an armed suspect. We almost never went anywhere in less than a squad-sized unit. Since our rifle squads were reinforced with a weapons team and a Corpsman, we travelled with about 15 or 16 well-armed people. We didn't have to wait for a backup. And if we knew we were going into an area where shooting had taken place, or where people had been spotted carrying weapons, we always had artillery or air set up as "on-call" in the event we needed it. I know police officers don't have that luxury.

Like I said, I recognize the faulty logic of my analogy. I'm sorry for that.
That said, I still don't believe a cop should be allowed to just walk away from killing an innocent civilian with nothing more than a slap on the wrist. And please don't try to tell me that hasn't happened.

Walter
 
No slack for bureacractic stupidity

I would think a full investigation would have to ensue, especially if a raid was conducted on the WRONG home because of a typo. You dont want your family pet killed, children traumatized, or worse be shot because some stupid clerk typed the wrong information on a "no-knock" search warrant. :mad:

In fact, IF the systems are not in place yet - to double and triple check these possible fatal errors then they should be. :eek:

Its bad enough that the average armed homeowner faces lawsuits from a criminal who broke into his home and threatened him, but we have to face the dangerous situation of a SWAT team breaking into our homes because some idiot put in the wrong address? NOT ACCEPTABLE.

And if it takes a lawsuit of 10 billion dollars so that this mistake will not be repeated ever again, then so be it.
 
Raid

HPD not only raided a home without a warrant, a cop on the raid shot another cop in the back and then the 6 cops put a dozen or more holes in the unarmed home owner, I believe one cop had a misdemenor charge of trespassing pressed on him. :barf:
 
From someone on a SWAT team

This is BAD juju. Let's 1st cover basics so everyone understand how the team got to the door in the 1st place (normally).
The affidavits for the warrants are sworn to by the detective/agent working the case. It is up to the affiant AND the DA/AUSA to be damn sure they have the right address. If it is a no-knock warrant, this must explicity be authorized by the judge/magistrate, and this is only in extreme circumstances. Intel should be continuous to ensure that the subject is at the address the affidavit describes. (However, as Capt Charlie stated, this is sometimes not possible). Once the tactical team has control, they better be damn sure they are at the right address. (Intel is continuous).
If the wrong house is hit, expect civil liability. If someone in the house is shot, we've just jumped into ludicrous speed (starting to see plaid). Besides civil liabilities, jobs are on the line. I know this is in pale comparison to losing an innocent life, but can anything really be compared to that?
As was stated, unless we're in crisis mode (kidnapping, hostages), time is on our side to get it right. That 1% where lives are on the line and time is not on our side, you have to sometimes go with a plan that is not 100% complete (as will usually be the case in exergent circumstances).
Mistakes happen, but when lives are lost, someone must pay the piper.
 
In the event

Of a "Wrong House" type action, every one involved should be considered as suspect on the offending force, including the Judge who signs off on the Warrant. A "No Knock Raid" goes bad, all involved should be removed from positions of authority and punished according to extent of harm occured. There is neither excuse or cause for wrongful execution of police action against citizens of this nation, period. Just remember that head shots are in order for wrong intrusion into a mans home and castle, the only sancuary available to us. The Gov' has taken too many liberties already will our rights and the US Constitution. Any one planning a raid upon my sanctuary had better knock and show his warrant before executing an entry. I desire neither his death nor mine.
 
Harlie, you cannot punish the judge. He is asking the detective/agent to swear to the affidavit as to its truth as he knows it. The judge is surely not going on surveillance to make sure.
Nor can you punish the team. The SWAT team is only executing the warrant as asigned to them. If the warrant says search and/or arrest at house XYZ, and the team hits house XYZ, they have complied with the warrant. If the warrant authorizes no-knock, it is usually b/c the subject is A&D with a past violent criminal history (this warrant is meant to PROTECT the arresting officers). It is obviously, a very dangerous warrant service b/c you are crashing in someon's house without 1st knocking. However, it is usually REQUIRED to still make a verbal announcement of who it is and what authority they have to enter (i.e. Police, we have a warrant). I know for us, every single guy coming into the door (both interior and exterior ) are required to announce.
If you are in the house, it comes down to what you heard and saw. If you fire upon an officer, you had better be prepared to justify your actions (As well as the officers should justify their force). For instance, if you are hiding in the bedroom covering the bedroom door (a good defensive posture to a home invasion), you would have to prove that you did not hear "Police" mentioned XX times. If you are hard of hearing (and this can be physically proven), then you might have a defense. But, how did you get to the point of arming and barricading yourself if you didn't hear the entry and announcements?
 
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