The optimum H/D load....

I don't see any problems with a 20ga. I got both of mine because the price was right. Prices are about equal between 12ga and 20ga ammo. The only downside to 20ga IMHO is finding factory shells larger than #3 buck or slugs above ¾ ounce.
 
The biggest advantage of the 12 gauge over the 20 is ammo availability and selection. Local stores here may carry buck in 000 down to #4, the 20 has only #3. Slugs are the same, the 20 gauge stuff might have 3 or 4 brands, but there's at least 6 or 7 12 gauge slugs at the chain stores here. Gun shops are about the same.

The 20 will work fine, in fact the load I posited would be similar to a 28 gauge field load.

And, there's no ammo cost savings in going to a 20. Most 20 gauge costs at least as much as its 12 gauge equivalent.

Most 20 gauges run 1/2 lb lighter or more than their 12 gauge brethren. This is not all good, felt recoil climbs as weight drops, all else equal. The 870 Youth Express 20 gauge I got for the kids is a vicious kicker with heavy loads, the smaller butt concentrates the kick and the slightly lighter weight means somewhat more free recoil.Upside, while it's close to weight and overall length to Frankenstein, my 21" bbled parts 870, it handles more like an M-1 carbine than a shotgun. Good for tyros, pixies, kids, and seniors. Also for "Serious" shotgunners who need something one of the above can shoot also.

I do know or have known some Narcs who use 20 gauge 870s or 1100s as raid guns, and prefer them.
None,IIRC, are dedicated shotgunners off duty.
 
I like my Mossberg 500C 20 ga. The #3 buck patterns well, and the stock holds some slugs if needed. I also have, and practice with a Mossberg 590. It is probably more effective, but the 20 will do the job.
 
Dave,

Great post, well thought out and concise. What else should we have come to expect?

I am with you 100% regarding the HD considerations you posted. As always, each of us may have particulars that warrant deviations from the norm you and I and most others have to ascribe to. What surprised me was how little your setup and ours differed. Maybe you are starting to rub off on me?:p

I tend to load the 870 (7 shot tube) with two rounds of #6 lowbrass birdshot up front, followed by four rounds of reduced recoil 00 buck or S&B 12 pellet (they call it 00 but I consider it 01 buck). As you mention, the female companion here is the consideration given for the lighter loads, coupled with reduced recoil for myself (distances less than 35'). Additionally, the birdshot comes into play should dispatching a varmint take center stage on the property. Differences in weapon condition is the action is closed, chamber empty, safety off. Do you see any drawbacks to this configuration?

Normally, I load 2 rounds of #4 Remington high brass (as Rob96 says he does) followed by 4 rounds of full house 00 buck or 01 buck 2 3/4" when it's just me, leaving one slot open in order to sleeve a birdshot load or slug (this is still possible if S&B buckshot, known for it's additional length, is kept to four rounds in the tube, maximum). Like yourself, I keep a few slugs hung on the firearm proper, just in case. Also, I keep a bandolier with extra buckshot at the bedside should things protract (damned scary if I ever really think about it).

I practice a lot with what I keep in it for HD and am having her get acclimated. Patterning has demonstrated effectiveness with the RR and S&B buck loads out to 25 yards (okay for non-buffered shot). Birdshot is naturally less. I still have not obtained any Estate shells for evaluation. Eventualities. Is their length more consistent with standard shotshells?

I also returned one of my Wingmasters (the HD one) back to the original stock from the Remington factory overfolder to ease her use with it. The sharp recoil of the metal buttplate was making her gun shy. Lowest common denominator. I understand and respect your sentiments regarding those abominations, but I simply have to have a pistol grip with rifle sights. Perhaps you could recommend a folder (side or top) with better handling characteristics than that which I am employing?

Also, have you done anything to improve the Remington safety on your 870's? I find the small trigger guard button "odd" after using the Mossberg 500 series for so many years. Would a larger replacement one help or be problematic?

As a twist, what say you about ammunition selection for a double barrel or over under?

Thanks for taking the time to address some of the most important issues regarding the shotgun in the self defense role. My belief is that the shotgun, employed correctly, is the most effective home defense firearm available. Your post assists those who opt for one to get to the point regarding ammunition selection.

Ah, were ammunition manufacturers listening to your insight on 2 1/2" shells (I am assuming they would work in the 870 - those little Aquila monsters sure didn't!). A tailored shell line made for home defense and the potential for higher capacity (+1?) in a reliably feeding package. Ramp up costs would be a bit chilling, initial costs prohibitive? Still, the payoff might well be worth it considering our present state of economic affairs if costs were comparable.

Should some manufacturer ever take up the idea and make it a commercial success, you can always claim you thought of it first!
 
Erick, that 20 gauge Brenneke round's an excellent deer round. I've Brenneked a few deer with them, and seen others taken. Results are quite similar to 12 ga performance. Trouble is, that's one good choice, where 12 ga users have many.20 ga Forster styles seem to fall under some kind of threshold, the blood trails are longer.

Thanks, Jager. A couple of responses to your questions, starting with safeties and safety.

Firs,t I'm no fan of bighead safeties. Anything easier to take off than standard is easier to get knocked off by accident. However, I've been using the standard ones since about the time Mastodon went on the Endangered Species list, and those of us who aren't living fossils may find these an advantage, especially in short time frame scenarios. Since they're not terribly expensive, a test costs little.

I post my HD 870 with the safety(a misnomer of course)on because....

1, it's my old professional way of storing.

2, it's harder for kids and irresponsible adults or intruders to make ready to fire.

Stored "Cruiser Ready", a pump requires several different moves to be ready to fire, that are almost impossible for the ignorant to do quickly, but the cognescenti can do in a twinkling. Try it yourself. With a weapon KNOWN TO BE EMPTY, have someone time you from pickup to dry fire. Unless one's truly spastic,it's around 2 seconds at most. Now make it safe, and hand it to someone not familiar with shotguns. If they've got it snapped under 30 seconds, the first pitcher's on me.

Moving on, Estate SWAT buck seem to be the same length as an AA trap load. Rather than a larger capacity with a 2 1/2" shell, I see a bit less pressure on the mag spring, tho these last incredibly.

And one's SO should be trained with shoulder arms as well as handguns. Bitter experience prompts this, Mrs McC fired a shotgun ONCE, long ago when we first got involved. She gets out on occasion with a handgun, but is adamant about not shooting shotguns.

The prob common to all folders I've seen has been a smaller butt area. This concentrates the kick. It'll add a bit to the length, but try the double sticky sided Neoprene I mentioned elsewhere, with a thin leather cover to add some cushion. Or, add a bigger, quality pad and leave it "Proud" of the stock. It'll look odd but work to reduce felt recoil.

That Remington folder is the one( albeit improved) we had for the rapid response vehicles. Folks got their cheeks cut with the first ones, and heavy buck loads were most unpleasant with a butt suitable in size to a BB gun. That side folding Choate looks to be a better choice, but maybe someone with real experience can chip in here.

That Choate PG equipped full stock has its fans, this may fill you bill nicely. Contrary to my opinion about only PGs, I see little pro/con about
full stocks w/ PGs. If it works for you...

BTW, a field load of 6s suffices for raccoon sized critters up to maybe 20 yards. At 10, it opens them up like there's a zipper built in.
 
Persuader

Hello,

I kind of mentioned this in another folder. I have the Mossberg Persuader. It is supposed to have self-defense design.

Does anyone have any insight about this model?

Thank you,
Michael
 
Remington Sprtsman 12 pump (pre "express model" blued instead of parkerized)

It wears a rifle sighted deer berrel with the rifled tube in it.

As Dave has often said "breath mints fired out of a 12 gauge are lethal at 20 feet" ;)

I usually put a #6 2 3/4 pheasant load or a #2 3 inch magnum high brass laod in my shotgun. Why? the 3 inch #2 is only usable for turkey and I have a couple of boxes of it laying around.

I keep a vest full of shells around, loaded with buckshot and some slugs.

No fancy folders, no lights, no neoprene, no plastic.
 
Michael, while the Mossberg is not my first choice, it's a good shotgun. I doubt it'll hold up as long as an 870 will, but we're talking generations of shooters here. Your grandchildren may think it's a little loose, rather than your great grandchildren.

Rob, I've got a few boxes of turkey laods around too, even have some Nitro #2s from before steel shot. They'd do also, if I ever run out of Tic Tactical loads(G)...
 
Dave,

Having looked at the larger safety, I assumed it would be too easy to inadvertantly switch off. I'll take your advice and remain factory. Too old to switch from the familiar now anyway.

Thanks for the timely response.
 
Michael, at whatever point it's obvious they need stopping, in order to protect oneself and others. When stopping the perp becomes more important than whether said perp live or dies, then it's time, IMO.

Use of Deadly Force issues can be a quagmire. In some areas,it's OK to employ DF to protect property, not in others. And some "Sheeple" Govt officials can make life difficult for someone who acts righteously, but not as a victim.

On the positive side, most perps are taking the easy way. That's part of why they're perps.In the face of armed and determined resistance, they tend to leave. Note the "^Tend". Nothing is life is certain, which is why we have WIHTF guns in the first place.

In about 1971 or 2, in Venice Ca, an 870 helped me convince two socio-economically disadvantaged minority group members that breaking into my apartment in the wee smalls was not only illegal, but a really stupid idea.No shots fired,no further action needed. Once they saw the shotgun, they fled.

On another day and time, racking a shotgun loudly stopped a prison escape attempt right then, tho I do not say this will happen every time.

HTH...
 
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