The Olberman thread

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And I submit that I'm not.
If they disagree with their detractors, then by all means they should formulate and put forth a coherent argument. Something beyond "I'm right and therefore you're wrong".
Furthermore, *I* submit that *you* are engaging in the exact same behavior by attacking me instead of my argument. If you disagree with what I'm saying then have at it.
 
Rumsfeld is exactly right about the threats. he is exactly wrong in his strategy to win this war. Three and one-half years later we are going from fire to fire trying to put it out. Look at the recent Israeli fiasco in Lebanon. The war on terror is not a war that will be won by conventional warfare alone.

No Strategic WMDs found. Bush sent his own hand picked guy to look for them, he didnt find any. No proof that Saddam was linked to 9/11. The administration has admitted this.

Bush and his administration have admitted they made errors. The removal of Saddam was part of the Republican Party platform of the 2000 elections. These guys have given Osama what he wanted on a silver platter. Rumsfeld will be the next McNamara in history.
 
Wow. You are kidding right? You are skeptical that anyone ever commits murder, and on a grand scale, for religion?

WHAT is so hard to believe about that???

I think what you are missing are lessons from history, and of course the words of the radicals themselves as they pledge to wipe us of the map. No kool-aid required. Just a little reality. Not eveyone wants to 'just get along'. Wake up.

You know what, sometimes all I have are hunches. Nothing definite, just this little feeling down my spine. Doesn't count for much in the REAL world, but it carries a little weight in my mind.

I had a hunch that 9/11 didn't have anything to do with iraq.

I have a hunch that our leaders are full of Ish.

I have a hunch that the talking heads on the television are up to something, as if they are collectively one large blanket thrown over the heads of our country.

I have a hunch that when people tell us that "There's a threat! People want to kill us! Lets go get them first!", we have the responsibility to think about it a little more than we have in the past, rather than just haul off and liberate another mess.

I have a hunch that there are less religious radicals than the talking heads would have you believe and more simple normal average people who only want what we would want in their shoes.



I had an epiphany one day while out camping with some friends (a lot of friends in the desert, wah hoo). I was trying to coax a buddy of mine into going out and gathering wood with the rest of us and he just didn't want to go. I cajoled him, berated him, begged him, EVERYTHING just to get him to get his butt out the camp and in my truck to help gather some firewood. I finally muttered 'piss on em' and we took off for wooden riches beyond our wildest dreams. While out and about, it really struck me funny how everyone in the truck seemed to move like ants when it came to loading up heavy brush and dead trees, and how easily we all communicated more with grunts and knods than actual words. That's when it hit me. We're all still just cavemen. Every one of us. Cavemen with cadillacs, ipods, hdtv's, and the works. That's why we still do the things we do, all around the world. Every single one of us wakes up in the morning with (more or less) the same goals in mind, the same desires for ourselves and those we call friends. It's also the reason why I tried to get my buddy on the bandwagon. It's just how we work. When gearing up for the afghan/iraq wars, we want all our buddies to join the bandwagon. C'mon, lets go do this! Yet when some wish to remain, for whatever reason, we act the same way. And when the lead caveman/president starts flapping his arms and pointing "This way! This way!" we gave him the benefit of the doubt. It's just how we work. Yet for some inexplicable reason, all I have is this hunch that he's not leading us to firewood.

While this may not have made the most sense, it's difficult to put the experience into words. It kinda influenced why I believe the things that I do. It's also why it bothers me when people say that "All our enemies are religious wackos". Would it not be more accurate to say "All our enemies are the children of their parents, many of whom have familys much like ours, who know that they are fighting against the most razor-sharp and advanced military might that's ever been seen on the face of the planet, and yet continue to fight anyway.

We're all human. If in another's shoes, we'd probably be walking in the same direction, And to generalize a whole resistance as just simply being 'religous wackos'...just seems like a step towards making them easier to hate...but whatever works for you.
 
Well said, Esquire. I arrived at the same conclusion after years of research trying to find something concrete instead of just a gut feeling. The evil "gooks" in Nam turned out to be, for the most part, just a bunch of farmers that wanted to be left alone and I suspect the folks in the Mideast are the same. It's all a political power play and we're just "pawns on the grand chessboard" for the fatcats of the world.

badbob
 
Esquire,

I do understand your point - its a nice ideal - but I don't believe it. Have you studied anything about Germany (and Italy) during the Hitler rise to power? Are you aware of the complete propaganda and utter brainwashing that went on there? All the tactics Hitler used to get his people to go along - with his stated goals of wiping out an ENITRE race? (and having the Arian Race take their rightful place to rule the world). How 'bout imperialistic Japan - who's warrior culture / ruling class envsioned the Greater Far East Co-Prosperity Sphere, with them oin charge of course, and so conquered and RAPED and MURDERED their way across China, Vietnam, Korea, etc.? Were they hell bent on such destruction to escape the boot, or were they bent on spreading THEIR domination - fullfilling their self-proclaimed destiny as THEY saw it THEMSELVES?

Do you think "normal" thinking people willingly strap bombs to their backs, or to the backs of their children, and send them off to blow up more kids across the border? Someone who is down ALWAYS needs someone else to blame - it is easier to take your own failings that way. There is a form of facism at work here - fanatically taught from birth - to HATE the infidels - whether Jewish or Christian or atheist. When Carter let the Aytollahs take over Iran - they were screaming "death to America" - long before Gulf War I, Lebanon, the Iraq war, our presence in Saudi, even while we were helping the mujahideen, etc. - they wanted US dead. It is in their teachings that Islam will rule the world - that NO ONE who practices another religion, another LIFE-STYLE deserves to live. Are 'they all' like this? No - of course not. It is the ones who ARE, the ones that state as much (and there are plent) that we CAN'T ignore, and better take seriously.

"Islam must prepare to rule the world, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told a crowd ..
"We must believe in the fact that Islam is not confined to geographical borders, ethnic groups and nations. It's a universal ideology that leads the world to justice," Ahmadinejad said...

"Islam must rule the world and until Islam does rule the world we will continue to sacrifice our lives," Al-Badr spokesman Mustaq Aksari told CNN in an interview four months ago.

"We have ruled the world before, and by Allah, the day will come when we will rule the entire world again. The day will come when we will rule America. The day will come when we will rule Britain and the entire world – except for the Jews. The Jews will not enjoy a life of tranquility under our rule, because they are treacherous by nature, as they have been throughout history. The day will come when everything will be relived of the Jews - even the stones and trees which were harmed by them. Listen to the Prophet Muhammad, who tells you about the evil end that awaits Jews. The stones and trees will want the Muslims to finish off every Jew."

etc. etc. etc.


REALLY sorry you don't believe it. Maybe too much time is spent trying to see what WE did wrong, too much time blaming the US for all that is evil in the hearts of those who want us dead. For me, it is just the history of evil repeating itself. Hopefully we WILL continue our offense - to avoid being taking by surprise yet again, to avoid more murders of our innocent. I hope so - because too many people ignore history, ignore facts, and naively just don't think other people can be so bad.


and badbob,

After us 'evil gooks' left Vietnam, the communists came in and murdered about 2 MILLION people. Nope - no evil there once us ugly Aemricans left! What a crock...
 
"After us 'evil gooks' left Vietnam, the communists came in and murdered about 2 MILLION people. Nope - no evil there once us ugly Aemricans left! What a crock..."

Sorry shield20, I didn't realise you were a "gook". No offense intended for individuals of Asian ethnicity no matter how misconstrued my comments were.

badbob
 
And mean while more TV tapes are broadcast showing the backers of the "religon of peace" telling us to convert to Islam or die. Which is the first step required by their cult to begin general war fare against the infadels and "cut their necks where ever you find them"...Nope no threat there, nothing to see move along, move along. Its all Bush's fault anyway that the sky is blue.
 
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