The odd man out - Liberal Constitutionalists

I won't argue that a vote for a libertarian candidate in the US presidential election is not a waste of your vote. I could and face to face I could convince some, but not in this forum.

Whar about local politics in off years? Many of my city elections have 50 to 100 votes in off years. When president isn't up no one shows. No one knows the local candidates. All you have to do is show up to the election with a good number of friends and you can win a local position.

Our country has historically been dominated by two partis, but it has not always been THESE two parties. Every once in a while one of the parties gets way off their supposed platform and is replaced. WHich party is that right now?
 
One size does not fit all

and seldom fits anyone perfectly.

First, let us all remember that the numbers on the amendments are irrelevant to their legal importance. ALL are equally valid, and equally legally important and binding.

In the real world, the rights enumerated in the First Amendment have a primacy of importance, and daily impact. In the court of last resort, the 2nd Amendment rights have a physical primacy, without which our options are severely limited. Continued respect for our First amendment rights, by the govt is what keeps us from having to resort to the final argument.

Second, lets also remember that no matter how much we might wish otherwise, we have come a long way from the system set up by our Founders. We have to live, and deal with what exists today, and by so doing, create what will exist tomorrow.

American voters can be divided into several groups. One group votes straight party lines. Most do this because of tradition. "Grandad was a Democrat, Dad was a democrat, and so am I," etc.

Another group votes with their wallets, as they see it. "My union says vote democrat, and so I do, because they will keep me working." Or "I own a business, and Republicans are for business, so I vote for them", etc.

Another group are those who vote for the important social/civil rights issues they believe most strongly in. Many gun owners (but by no means all) are there. So are the Abortion folks , both pro and con, the gay rights people, the environmentalists etc. etc.

And there is yet another group that is living comfortably enough that they have nothing important enough to them to bother to vote.

All these groups have myriad degrees, and one can be in one, or several, depending on the precise views you hold, and how strongly you feel about them.

No one seems to be completely satisfied with either of the main parties choices on everything, so those that do vote, mostly wind up voting for whichever party/candidate that seems to agree strongest with their particular sacred cow, accepting the "bad" to get at least a little "good".

Lots of us don't fit perfectly and completely in either camp. Perhaps one reason why so many of us are dissatisfied with politics, parties, and politicians. And all of us "know" things would all be just fine if the politicians actually did what we want them to do. Trouble is, that with so many widely differing points of view, what is right to some is completely wrong to others. And it changes with each different issue, and individual.

Take national health care, for one. To me, it is one of those things, like communism, a fine sounding idea, in theory, but something that invariably doesn't work well in the real world. Forget, for a moment, all the arguments about who pays, and whether it is socialism, and everything else, and just ask your self one question. Do you really want the Federal Government running our health care system? And, before you answer that, look at the fine health care system already run by our federal govt. The VA.

Because, the best of intentions not withstanding, once enough people and bureaucracies get involved with it, that is what it will come down to. Is this what you want for yourself, and your children? And is it right to give our govt agencies the legal authority to force us all into that kind of system?

Now, go on and consider all the other arguments, pro and con, and make up your mind.

Gay Marriage. Something that affects me personally not in the least. However, being a bit of a traditionalist, at least when it comes to language, I oppose gay marriage. I favor "civil unions" having ALL the legal rights of marriage. I just oppose the term marriage being used for anything other than its traditional definition.

Abortion. Being a man, my gut reaction is that I have no place in this issue. BUT, I fully agree and support my wife's position, which she explains this way; She is pro-life AND pro-choice. Sounds like a contradiction at first, but her reasoning is actually quite simple, and logical. She believes abortion (for convenience) is wrong, BUT she believes that is not the govt's decision. The same govt that claims the authority to say "you shall not" has the authority to say "you must!", and that, to her, is wrong.

Guns and shooting are my main hobby, a passion I have enjoyed for nearly 40 years. To me, they are the main factor in who I vote for. I'll put up with an awful lot (but not everything) as long as you leave my things alone. Trouble is, they won't. So, generally, I hold my nose, and vote for the ones I hope will leave me alone the longest.

On this issue, neither party is our good friend. One just wants to do it to us faster than the other. This is, of course a broad generalization, and so, not completely accurate. There are good people who feel the same way we do on this issue in both parties. Trouble is, that they aren't, and haven't been the ones running things for some time now.
 
Abortion. Being a man, my gut reaction is that I have no place in this issue. BUT, I fully agree and support my wife's position, which she explains this way; She is pro-life AND pro-choice. Sounds like a contradiction at first, but her reasoning is actually quite simple, and logical. She believes abortion (for convenience) is wrong, BUT she believes that is not the govt's decision. The same govt that claims the authority to say "you shall not" has the authority to say "you must!", and that, to her, is wrong.
Well said!

My view parallels that of your wife's.

I also look at what's termed "choice" a little differently than others. I also believe in choices, but that we must abide with the results of those choices.

A man and woman who engage in what's euphemistically referred to as procreation, have already made a choice. After creating life, neither the man nor the woman has the option of terminating that life intentionally.
 
Wow

Heavy thread, but very enlightening.
I congratulate all who have partaken on your calm discussion of a normally volatile subject. It was a great read, like I said, very interesting to me as I live in Australia on the other side of the world.
I also congratulate the staff of TFL for allowing the thread to go on, because it got well away from guns and shooting, but I believe was a worthy thread to be kept alive.
I have heard many anti's rave on about how "gun people" are all 2 headed morons with no more than one brain cell between them, but you gentlemen (and ladies) have proven to me (and hopefully any anti spies, spying) that you are just normal educated people, who love your guns and shooting, can allow others to have their own opinions, and get on with our favorite passtime..... shooting :D

I take my hat off to you all, you are all great blokes (even the sheila's) & I am proud to be accepted as a member of TFL :D

Keep up the good work :D
 
My biggest gripe is that every other industrialized nation has it, and even though the number the news is toting says 50 million Americans, there is a large chunk of those covered that get denied services

And there are a great deal of people who are denied services through government run health care around the world. Because it is either too expensive or there is not enough capcity in the system to give everyoen the requested service. Almost every other industrial nation has much more restrictive gun laws than we do, should we adopt that as well. Just because they do it across the pond doesn't mean we should do it here. If it is good for us we should do it if not we shouldn't. Too me government run health care is not good for us.

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Abortion. Being a man, my gut reaction is that I have no place in this issue. BUT, I fully agree and support my wife's position, which she explains this way; She is pro-life AND pro-choice. Sounds like a contradiction at first, but her reasoning is actually quite simple, and logical. She believes abortion (for convenience) is wrong, BUT she believes that is not the govt's decision. The same govt that claims the authority to say "you shall not" has the authority to say "you must!", and that, to her, is wrong.

Well said!

My view parallels that of your wife's.

I also look at what's termed "choice" a little differently than others. I also believe in choices, but that we must abide with the results of those choices.

A man and woman who engage in what's euphemistically referred to as procreation, have already made a choice. After creating life, neither the man nor the woman has the option of terminating that life intentionally.

I would agree that abortion is wrong but it is not the government's place to say you can't.

I agree that a choice is made the minute two people decide to have sex and take no precautions to prevent pregnancy.

It galls me when pro-choice people make the claim that they some how have a right to choose to end a life for no reason or when pro-life people, or any other group for that matter, try and tell others how to live.

I do support efforts to reduce unwanted pregnancies (before conception) and reduce the amount of abortions through adoption. But I can't support an outright ban on abortion.
 
You sound like a Libetarian except for the nationalized health care. i am a Libetarian, and it's just that the republican party is usually closer to the Libetarian party's views. Liberals do share some views with the libetarians and anyone who supports the Second Amendment is welcome no matter how he chooses to label himself.
 
You sound like a Libetarian except for the nationalized health care. i am a Libetarian, and it's just that the republican party is usually closer to the Libetarian party's views.
I think it is simpler than that. General the republicans have moved to keep money in working peoples pockets, well at least people working in the private sector. If you have the money you can do almost anything you want.

Lets face it, if Donald Trump wanted to purchase a helicopter with a GE minigun on board for his personal entertainment he could do it. He could buy a small island and call it an independent country, start a shell security firm, or any number of other things to accomplish this task.

There was a guy who couldn't get a radio license or something in the US b/c of his politics and he just went to Mexico, built a huge radio emitter that could reach most of the US and told the government to stick it.

If you are gay and want to be married and you have money you can easily get a lawyer to write up a special contract and afford the extra litigation if it is broken. Probably a good bit more costly then going before the justice of the peace and going through the relatively streamlined divorce proceedings if that contract is breached.

Abortion illegal? Not if you have money. Go to Europe for a month and problem solved. Maybe you run with that country club crowd with a few doctors. "Hey Johnny, my daughter has a problem, do you think you can help me out."

With money, almost any restriction on the amendments or civil rights in general can be circumvented.
 
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Marriage has historically been the joining of man and woman for the purposes of procreation
Its a LOT more than that. The family has been the basic unit of social structure just about forever. The legal structure of marriage is mostly about regularizing that structure and putting it into context with the rest of society.

Much harm has come from government meddling in what should be strictly family matters.
 
For some reason, I get the feeling that the libertarian mindset is a lot stronger than many would have us believe.

I would call myself generally libertarian. (I am also very willing to listen to pragmatic ideas, especially in the "public goods" field.)

During the past election, I found myself voting for a 3rd party candidate. While I greatly admired one candidate and generally respected the other, their policy stances were just too far from my own views. Call me stupid, but I would rather make my opinion known and lose than vote for someone who will not adequately represent my views.
 
I'm a simple, ordinary old man and for me the answer to the OP is pretty basic.

Conservatives/Libertarians tend to blame the individual for the deficiencies of the individual.

Liberals tend to blame outside forces for the deficiencies of the individual.

For example, conservatives tend to blame the person pulling the trigger of the gun for the outcome of "pulling that trigger". Liberals tend to blame society or the person selling or manufacturing the gun for the "pulling of that trigger".

This difference in basic outlooks can apply to almost any question the OP asked about IMHO (i.e, except gay marriage).

I fall heavily into the conservative camp. I believe strongly that we all hit the "crossroads" in our lives at some point in time and we have to make a choice. The choice is that of the individual.

As far as the constitutional liberal.... just depends on your basic outlook on individual versus collective rights IMHO. I believe the constitution was written to enhance and protect individual rights, liberals disagree with me.

Edit: Do I think my way is clearly the correct one and I know this for sure? No.
 
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RDak - You have a very clear picture, and that individual rights form the true path to freedom.

There has been a disconnect taking place over time, that somehow relates collectivism to some sort of bastardized democracy. Most folks don't understand, or choose to ignore, that democracy is nothing but mob rule, and our founders worked very hard to insure that we didn't suffer the same fate as all democracies in times past.

We need only to look at the French Revolution. Their concept of "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite" caused a bloodbath among what the revolutionaries considered enemies of the state. The tyranny of Marat and Robespierre were direct results of a revolution feeding on itself. Their deaths were the results of their actions.
 
I'm always amazed at the number of ignorant people that look to government as if it were some magical entity possessing a bottomless well from which to ladle money.

The majority of our countrymen are largely ignorant about politics in the dictionary sense of being uninformed. A recent poll (sorry, but I didn't save the link) showed that a majority of Americans think the trillions of dollars for the current economic bailouts come from some magical repository of money set aside by the government. Such political ignorance means that two things dominate the political landscape - fringe issues and group identification.

Firearms are my passion and hobby. I recognize that the RKBA is a fringe issue because the vast majority of voters are just not interested in firearms. If I could find politicians who were consistently for less government in all areas except firearms, I would vote for such politicians. But I have not found politicians who are consistently for less government, so firearms issues usually drive my vote.

Our country has two main political parties that absolutely agree on one thing - that they do not want serious competition from more political parties. To that end, they have jointly created barriers to other parties' ability to effectively enter the arena. With only two real choices, the main parties do not really have to be different; they both favor more government, with a little differentiation at the margins. The two main parties have claimed various fringe issues to which they give more or less attention. After dividing up the fringe voters, the parties appeal to the masses of the politically ignorant on the basis of name identification; "vote for Candidate X because he is a Democrat" or "vote for Candidate Y because he is a Republican."

My view of the law and civil rights is that there should be as few laws as possible to enable and ensure our civil rights. Lately, my litmus test (other than RKBA :)) for politicians has become whether or not they support the repeal of laws. Maybe it is the nature of the beast, but the function of government seems to have become producing ever more laws. Whenever politicians actually support eliminating existing laws (and not substituting replacements). I take close notice.
 
This board is offering me contact with dozens of differing viewpoints and some great discussions have been had so far. It is definitely opening my mind a lot, and giving me a lot to think about.

I plan to learn a lot here, and really appreciate the maturity everyone has here. It's much easier to get engaged into a conversation that may actually teach you something about the world or yourself, when they don't put up walls and are willing to talk about stuff that they already have an iron clad core belief about.
 
GC70 wrote:
Firearms are my passion and hobby. I recognize that the RKBA is a fringe issue because the vast majority of voters are just not interested in firearms. If I could find politicians who were consistently for less government in all areas except firearms, I would vote for such politicians. But I have not found politicians who are consistently for less government, so firearms issues usually drive my vote.

Firearms happen to be a hot-button issue, because abuses of that right happen to be more visible, and usually more deadly. Other rights which get suppressed, are usually much more quiet and reside under the radar (or outright ignorance) of the so-called media.

In 1992, Bill Clinton managed to get Congress to pass a tax hike, which was retroactively applied to January 1, 2003. Not one newspaper took him to task, nor did one lawsuit get filed over the apparent violation of Article 1, Section 9 (ex post facto clause).

As you so astutely mentioned, both parties are merely carving up the middle, with a few fringe arguments giving the appearance that there are substantial differences between the two.

This past spring, I was so upset with the apparent selection of John McCain as the Republican candidate, I wrote to the RNC, advising them that I could no longer support them or their candidate apparent. The only thing I received in return was a form letter asking me to make another donation.

With the loss of this past Presidential election, and further erosion of power in Congress, Republicans choose a liberal RNC Chairman from Maryland! It proves your point succinctly.

This morning, Fox News mentioned that an increasing number of Republicans were referring to themselves as more conservative than Republican. One can only hope that this is a harbinger.
 
Wow! My opinion of the contributors to this forum has gone up as a result of reading this thread. There's a lot here that I could comment on, but won't because there just isn't enough room. But I'll add a few things.

One, I don't care for labels so much and they have been used a lot in this discussion. For one thing, I think labels are often false. That is, someone calling themselves conservatives might not be as conservative as they are reactionary. On the other hand, no one here seems to be particularly revolutionary and I'm not even sure if there are any progressives. No offence to anyone.

Another thing is that labels generally imply more than is true about a particular group or individual at a given point in time, even though it may often be accurate enough.

One point not discussed so much is the idea that the far left and far right (or simply, the left and the right) are not representative of most people but rather that more people are somewhere in the middle, presumably the silent majority as someone called it. I fear that is not the case at all. While there may be many who are uninterested and uninformed about political matters, that doesn't place them in the middle. That puts them somewhere on the outside. In other words, for most people, most voters anyway, issues are seen as black/white, either/or. For better or for worse.

Most things aren't, like it or not. Nationalized health care, for instance. There seems to be the general assumption that if the federal government somehow implements a nationalized health care system, then private health care will somehow disappear. Well, it might but there are certainly plenty of private schools to send your child to if you don't like government run and therefore socialized public schools.

The word socialism has been used a lot here as if it is something bad. One might be a socialist but if you aren't, does that make you an anti-socialist?

Here's something else to ponder. Someone called me at home a few years ago asking me to attend a "support the troops" rally on the national mall (I live near D.C.). I asked her (It was a woman calling) to describe what it was. Was it a recruiting rally? Was it a bond drive? The caller was at a loss.

Well, I don't know about gay marriage but it seems to me that if you wanted to have a law to protect marriage, it would be about making divorce illegal. But I don't think these things through very well.
 
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