turtlehead
New member
Bayonet and a buttstock on a pistol, huh...
The new guy...
- Thread starter noobwitha22
- Start date
noobwitha22
New member
Yeah I am learning that the more I do research.
I am kidding, hence all the ridiculous add-ons.
marine6680
New member
22lr is a great choice for a beginner... And now that 22lr ammo is pretty common again, prices are not insane, and you can buy it at your leisure. After the last big gun control scare, 22 ammo was a unicorn for many.
The S&W Victory is a fine choice. I hear many good things about it. It has gained an aftermarket as well. So if you decide to tinker sometime down the line, you can.
The Ruger Mk series has the largest aftermarket. And they are fine pistols. From my understanding, they have the issue fixed on the new MkIV model. I really like the easy disassembly of the MkIV...
I would not suggest an earlier Mk for a complete noob, with little outside support. I have been taking apart and cleaning firearms since I was 10... often without a manual as a guide... And the first time I got a Mk III a few years ago, even using the manual, I messed up the reassembly, and about couldn't fix my screw up. It's easier to do now that I know, but I cussed for over an hour when the hammer got trapped and I couldn't get it together or back apart the first time.
The S&W Victory is a fine choice. I hear many good things about it. It has gained an aftermarket as well. So if you decide to tinker sometime down the line, you can.
The Ruger Mk series has the largest aftermarket. And they are fine pistols. From my understanding, they have the issue fixed on the new MkIV model. I really like the easy disassembly of the MkIV...
I would not suggest an earlier Mk for a complete noob, with little outside support. I have been taking apart and cleaning firearms since I was 10... often without a manual as a guide... And the first time I got a Mk III a few years ago, even using the manual, I messed up the reassembly, and about couldn't fix my screw up. It's easier to do now that I know, but I cussed for over an hour when the hammer got trapped and I couldn't get it together or back apart the first time.
noobwitha22
New member
Thank you for the info.
Spats McGee
Administrator
Welcome to TFL, noobwitha22!
I like the idea of a .22 for a new shooter and some fine choices have already been mentioned. I'll touch on a couple of things that may or may not already be clear to you, based on your earlier posts.
In the event you haven't heard of the Four Rules of Gun Safety yet:
I like the idea of a .22 for a new shooter and some fine choices have already been mentioned. I'll touch on a couple of things that may or may not already be clear to you, based on your earlier posts.
- All firearms transfers have to comply with both federal and state law.
- NJ is fairly notorious for its gun laws & draconian enforcement of them.
- I don't know what NJ state law is for transfers but you will want to know buying, especially if you're considering buying from a private party.
- Under federal law:
- All transfers through federally licensed firearms dealers (FFLs), which are all of your new gun purchases and interstate transfers*, have to have an associated background check. (* = NJ may also require private party intrastate transfers to go through an FFL.)
- All interstate transfers of long guns must go through an FFL, and must comply with the laws of the states of residence of both transferor and transferee. If you're new to guns, I do not suggest "testing the waters" in this area. Just buy something in your home state, go learn to safely shoot it, and enjoy.
- All interstate transfers of handguns must go through an FFL in your state of residence.
In the event you haven't heard of the Four Rules of Gun Safety yet:
- All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
- Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
- Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
- Identify your target, and what is behind it.
noobwitha22
New member
Thank you for clarity on those laws. I was looking at what is legal here in NJ and when I saw that there was FFL's and needing to go through them, I thought that just sounds like too much of a hassle to get a gun. I guess if I were to buy an antique or something like that I would need the FFL but for a new gun I am pretty confident that most of the gun shops around me should be able to get. But again I rather handle a gun before I decide to purchase one.
I actually have a note laying around my desk about Gun Safety. And my friend who is a state trooper has reminded me as well. I know how serious owning a gun is and I do not want to make any mistakes.
straightshooterjake
New member
I am a fan of Ruger .22 pistols, but I think the S&W Victory is also a fine choice as a first gun.
If you want to be able to modify your pistol in the future, then the Ruger Mark pistols have the largest aftermarket. However, at this point the aftermarket for the the Mk IV pistols has not caught up to the extent of parts that are available for the Mk II and Mk III pistols.
Also, there is one unusual aspect about modifying the Ruger Mark pistols. The serial numbered part on a Ruger Mark .22 is the barrel and receiver assembly. In other words, the "gun" is the top half of the pistol. So you can buy a replacement grip frame through the mail, because it is not serial numbered and is not a "gun." But you cannot change the shape and style of your barrel, since it is permanently attached to the serial numbered receiver. (Actually, the barrel and receiver can be separated, but it is usually not feasible.)
This configuration is different from almost all other handguns where the grip frame is the serial numbered part. With the S&W Victory, you can buy new barrels through the mail, so it is easy to change to a lightweight or threaded barrel. It may be expensive, but there are no federal paperwork hassles.
If you want to be able to modify your pistol in the future, then the Ruger Mark pistols have the largest aftermarket. However, at this point the aftermarket for the the Mk IV pistols has not caught up to the extent of parts that are available for the Mk II and Mk III pistols.
Also, there is one unusual aspect about modifying the Ruger Mark pistols. The serial numbered part on a Ruger Mark .22 is the barrel and receiver assembly. In other words, the "gun" is the top half of the pistol. So you can buy a replacement grip frame through the mail, because it is not serial numbered and is not a "gun." But you cannot change the shape and style of your barrel, since it is permanently attached to the serial numbered receiver. (Actually, the barrel and receiver can be separated, but it is usually not feasible.)
This configuration is different from almost all other handguns where the grip frame is the serial numbered part. With the S&W Victory, you can buy new barrels through the mail, so it is easy to change to a lightweight or threaded barrel. It may be expensive, but there are no federal paperwork hassles.
noobwitha22
New member
That is some more info I need to learn about. Had no idea a barrel change could need federal paperwork.
Spats McGee
Administrator
No. An FFL is a "federal firearms licensee." You do not have to have an FFL to buy a gun. Anyone "engaged in the business" of manufacturing, buying & selling, etc., firearms has to have an FFL in order to conduct business. NJ may require some kind of state-level license to possess a firearm, but that's a separate problem. Your LGS (local gun shop) where you buy the gun will have the FFL. It should also be able to help guide you through the process of legally purchasing a pistol in NJ.noobwitha22 said:
In simplest terms, under federal law, whatever part of a firearm has the serial number on it is the "gun" for purposes of figuring out what hoops you have to go through to buy & possess it. Anything else is just a piece of steel.noobwitha22 said:
For example, if I wanted an AR, I could:
- Buy the lower (which has the serial number and is "the gun") in one of two ways:
- Through from FFL, get the background check, etc.; or
- From a private party. I don't know about NJ, but in many states, all I have to do is hand over money and get the lower. No background check required in AR.
- Buy all of the other parts through over the internet or from private parties.
straightshooterjake
New member
With respect, I would like to add a slight clarification to what Spats McGee has said. I would state it as follows:
There are some firearms which have the serial number on several different components. However, only one component is the firearm and has the serial number that counts. The serial numbers on other components are just used to keep all of the parts of the gun together. If you are are looking at a gun which has serial numbers on multiple components, and you are not sure which part is the serial numbered firearm, then you must consult with an expert. Different firearm designs are handled differently, and it is not always possible to guess which component is the "firearm."
Note, that finding multiple numbers in different places is much more common on older guns and does not apply to any of the .22 pistols being discussed in this thread. However, since this thread is also addressing issues for a new firearm owner, I want to do my best to provide clear details.
Spats McGee
Administrator
straightshooterjake is correct & I have edited my post accordingly.
marine6680
New member
Short and sweet... As I can.
If you buy a "firearm" from a business, you will go through a background check.
That includes online sales... Before you can take final possession of the gun, a background check must be completed. In addition, shipping a firearm across state lines, you must ship to an authorized FFL. An FFL is a license to conduct the business of selling and or manufacturing a firearm.
Since you must ship to an FFL, and a background check must be completed... You just have the firearm sent to the dealer of your choice and they will do the background check.
Exceptions to the above...
You are on a federal level... Allowed to buy a firearm from a private third party... Meaning the guy down the street, or your friend from work... Without a background check.
You can give a firearm as a gift...
Now some states have laws governing this practice, and may require a background check for private sales as well.
Shipping... A licenced manufacture or gunsmith can ship a gun directly to the owner, after modifications or repairs... And only the owner... So long as the serial number is the same. If you send a firearm in for repair and the manufacturer seems it beyond repair, and they send you a new replacement, the serial number is different, and it must go to an FFL.
Now it's important to note that this applies to the "firearm" only... The firearm is traditionally the component that contains the serial number... Usually this part has to be a "receiver or frame" so while an old rifle may have the serial number on the bolt in addition to the receiver, the bolt is traditionally not considered the "firearm"... The serial on the bolt is to make sure the same parts stay together.
An example using a traditional pistol... The lower frame, meaning the part that has the grip, magazine and trigger... Is the "firearm" and has the serial number on it.
All the other parts, the grip panels, the parts that fit inside and onto the frame, are not a firearm, and are not subject to the rules governing background checks and shipping. (This includes the aforementioned trigger, and magazine)
Same for the barrel and slide components that fit on top of the frame... (CZ traditionally puts the serial on the slide and barrel as well, but as was mentioned, they are not the firearm in the eyes of the federal government)
It becomes murky, or at least less straight forward, with some 22 pistols, due to how they are constructed, and where the serial number is placed.
A Ruger Mk has the number on the upper frame, and practically speaking, the barrel is permanently attached to the upper frame.
So a new barrel requires a serialized part...
Other pistols do not have this limitation...
Though this is not likely to be an issue for your first pistol, as you are not likely to get that involved with modifications.
If you buy a "firearm" from a business, you will go through a background check.
That includes online sales... Before you can take final possession of the gun, a background check must be completed. In addition, shipping a firearm across state lines, you must ship to an authorized FFL. An FFL is a license to conduct the business of selling and or manufacturing a firearm.
Since you must ship to an FFL, and a background check must be completed... You just have the firearm sent to the dealer of your choice and they will do the background check.
Exceptions to the above...
You are on a federal level... Allowed to buy a firearm from a private third party... Meaning the guy down the street, or your friend from work... Without a background check.
You can give a firearm as a gift...
Now some states have laws governing this practice, and may require a background check for private sales as well.
Shipping... A licenced manufacture or gunsmith can ship a gun directly to the owner, after modifications or repairs... And only the owner... So long as the serial number is the same. If you send a firearm in for repair and the manufacturer seems it beyond repair, and they send you a new replacement, the serial number is different, and it must go to an FFL.
Now it's important to note that this applies to the "firearm" only... The firearm is traditionally the component that contains the serial number... Usually this part has to be a "receiver or frame" so while an old rifle may have the serial number on the bolt in addition to the receiver, the bolt is traditionally not considered the "firearm"... The serial on the bolt is to make sure the same parts stay together.
An example using a traditional pistol... The lower frame, meaning the part that has the grip, magazine and trigger... Is the "firearm" and has the serial number on it.
All the other parts, the grip panels, the parts that fit inside and onto the frame, are not a firearm, and are not subject to the rules governing background checks and shipping. (This includes the aforementioned trigger, and magazine)
Same for the barrel and slide components that fit on top of the frame... (CZ traditionally puts the serial on the slide and barrel as well, but as was mentioned, they are not the firearm in the eyes of the federal government)
It becomes murky, or at least less straight forward, with some 22 pistols, due to how they are constructed, and where the serial number is placed.
A Ruger Mk has the number on the upper frame, and practically speaking, the barrel is permanently attached to the upper frame.
So a new barrel requires a serialized part...
Other pistols do not have this limitation...
Though this is not likely to be an issue for your first pistol, as you are not likely to get that involved with modifications.
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noobwitha22
New member
I may not have made my self clear. I meant to say that I need to go to someone with an ffl to have a gun delivered. Which for me doesn't make sense to buy a new gun which adds around $50 to the price.
Learning about all these laws is going to be helpful for the future and in some cases now. I know now I need to really go over the NJ firearm laws. I need to know more.
Learning about all these laws is going to be helpful for the future and in some cases now. I know now I need to really go over the NJ firearm laws. I need to know more.
marine6680
New member
While not comprehensive, and mostly focused on concealed carry and transport of firearms through a state...
handgunlaw.us is a good resource site for local laws.
I am sure there are other places you can look... Usually the State Police website or the State Gov website is a good place to go.
Local gun shops can help... But that advice, just like any legal advice you get from someone who is not a lawyer (stress... lawyer... not cops, or random government officials) Is worth what you pay for it... or at least what you can independently verify from some official source.
handgunlaw.us is a good resource site for local laws.
I am sure there are other places you can look... Usually the State Police website or the State Gov website is a good place to go.
Local gun shops can help... But that advice, just like any legal advice you get from someone who is not a lawyer (stress... lawyer... not cops, or random government officials) Is worth what you pay for it... or at least what you can independently verify from some official source.
Well you have a lot of work ahead of you. I think the Ruger Mark IV is a great gun, just the Mark IV the other Marks III and II are to difficult to take apart for cleaning. The S&W Victory is good also. Go to youtube and theres a guy on called the plinkster, he has good videos on both these guns and more, of coarse some of his videos are about adding custom parts to the guns I mentioned.
There are combat looking 22's M&P has one and others but none of these are at the same level as the above, that are more for plinking and not for serious target shooting. There are many more but they're either out of your price range like the Volquartsen much more expensive and I'd stay away from to cheap 22's.
There are combat looking 22's M&P has one and others but none of these are at the same level as the above, that are more for plinking and not for serious target shooting. There are many more but they're either out of your price range like the Volquartsen much more expensive and I'd stay away from to cheap 22's.
As far as FFL's many of the internet sites where you can buy guns have list of FFL's in your area. You can do a search of FFL's on the internet, based on where you live. You should be able to find a FFL that charges about $25
As for the FFL not making sense to you it's because you have to fill out a background check before purchasing a gun from a dealer so a local FFL will be the only way to do it. of coarse a local gun dealer is a ffl also and handles to paperwork and usually doesn't charge you, but his prices for the gun you want may be more expensive than you can purchase it on the internet. NJ has some tuff gun laws but you can search the, gun laws for NJ on the internet to find them.
As for the FFL not making sense to you it's because you have to fill out a background check before purchasing a gun from a dealer so a local FFL will be the only way to do it. of coarse a local gun dealer is a ffl also and handles to paperwork and usually doesn't charge you, but his prices for the gun you want may be more expensive than you can purchase it on the internet. NJ has some tuff gun laws but you can search the, gun laws for NJ on the internet to find them.
So am I. I use my Ruger MkII pistol to shoot bowling pins in NH pin matches. This Saturday is the next pin match in Chester, NH (28Oct2017).
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