The nature of money

Dangus

New member
I've been doing a lot of thinking about the nature of money, and what effect it has on our political systems. Surely money is a big factor, but I've been thinking about what exactly our money represents, and I've come to a few conclusions.

Chiefly among these conclusions is that money started as a means of trading skills, labor, and material between people, and that money began as a result of labor. It strikes me now, however, that labor is a result of money. Doesn't this seem a bit backwards to you?

What I've also come to recognize is that we basically have a system of money which has it's foundations in the monetary systems of despots, ancient people who created the money system to allow themselves, and those they trusted to actually be able to put the labor of their subjects into some material form which they could control. Still using this system, it is no suprise than that the vast majority of the money is in the hands of an extremely small group of the population 1-3%. Obviously these people have more money by far than they have earned, and in fact, their money actually is generating money, even though their money isn't really generating any labor, skills, or material by just sitting there.

Stocks seem to be an incredibly big part of our current economic divide, between rich and poor. They also seem to not make any sense. Imagine this: I come to you and say, "I'll loan you 20 bucks in exchange for 1 square foot of your house" and so you do it. Then, you have to pay me back for that 20 bucks and I get to keep the 1 sq. ft. of your home. It makes no sense. So then, I go and I sell that foot of your house to someone else. You don't make any money off it. So, the homeowner, gets pressured by the people who own little chunks of his house to keep making the house more valuable, so he does, but he's not gaining anything by making their pieces more valuable is he?

This is why the stock market makes no sense to me, and why I think it is rediculous that the Federal Reserve bases our entire economy around this make believe world of fake money and imaginary value. The bond market, on the other hand, makes much more sense. A bond is like a loan, you get it, it gains interest, and then you get your money, and that's the end of it.

I've also come to the realization that money is pretty much subjective in value. Poor people will trade a lot more, and do a lot more, to get it, while rich people will throw it away like it's nothing in many cases. The median value to it is basically agreed to by everyone when Greenspan tells them it's worth such and such.

The question here is, with all these issues with money, is there a better system? We have money that is now being used for things it wasn't really meant to be used for, sucuh as generating more money off it's mere existance. We have money not worth the same to everyone, but that can't be fixed without destroying progress. There is an insane gap between rich and poor. Finally, we are still using a money system based on those of despots, which ultimately revolves around the concentration of value, and thus of power.

Is there a better system than this? I've been thinking about it a lot. Communism failed, socialism is lasting longer, but still not doing so well. Capitalism is thriving but at a heavy toll on huge sections of the population. I'm just not sure what the answer is. Money basically requires that some people have more than others, and really that's how it should be, but I find it disturbing when Bill Gates and Larry Elison make over 1 million dollars for every hour they are alive, working or not, and most of that money is made off stocks, an inherently screwed up system.

Any thoughts?

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
There's always been an insane gap between the rich and poor, even when the barter system was/is extant.

Feudal economies in Europe operated primarily on the barter system with land as the predominant source of wealth.

Those who had desirable skills (blacksmith, leather worker, miller) were frequently in much better financial condition than those who had less desirable skills.

Later, those skilled craftsmen formed what really constituted the first labor unions, the guilds.

The truly poor of those days were the serfs, who were tied to the land owned by local lords. Skilled craftsmen and merchants tended to be, but not always were, freemen, and as such free to move about as they saw fit (not the case with serfs).

Money was around, just not in great quantities, standardized measures, etc.

If you get right down to it, money is nothing more than an extension of the barter system. And in many areas of the world, the two systems combine very nicely.

There have been numerous attempts to "correct" the inequities of the system through "common good" utopian societies. In the United States many of these were religious in nature, such as the Shakers and the Amana and Oneida settlements. All worked to some degree, some longer than others, but all failed eventually for a variety of reasons, including the fact that while the community functioned nicely for the common good, it was still necessary for the community to produce goods for external sale, which led many over the years to simply ask "why shouldn't I do this for myself instead of for everyone?"



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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Chiefly among these conclusions is that money started as a means of trading skills, labor, and material between people, and that money began as a result of labor. It strikes me now, however, that labor is a result of money. Doesn't this seem a bit backwards to you?[/quote]

Yes, and that makes me wonder how you arrived at that conclusion. ;)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Still using this system, it is no suprise than that the vast majority of the money is in the hands of an extremely small group of the population 1-3%.[/quote]

Are you sure that you mean "money" and not "wealth"? Most rich people invest their money in assets such as stocks or real estate instead of accumulating vast coffers of cash like Scrooge McDuck.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Stocks seem to be an incredibly big part of our current economic divide, between rich and poor. They also seem to not make any sense.[/quote]

Actually, stocks make a great deal of sense, but your analogy with the house isn't accurate. Let's modify it a bit...

Suppose you want to turn an old house into a bed and breakfast business. You don't own the house, nor do you have enough money to buy it. So you incorporate a business, Dangcor, and explain to investors that if they buy stock in your business (giving you the money to buy the house), you'll pay them part of your profits (dividends).

Suppose I buy 10 out of 1000 shares of Dangcor for $500 each; other people buy the remaining 990 shares. You buy the house, set up a B&B, and start making money. You keep some of the money for yourself, put some of the money back into Dangcor (by making improvements to the house), and pay me some of the money as dividends.

But now suppose I want to get some cash to go on an African safari. So I turn around and offer to sell my shares in the business to Bill Gates. Since the value of Dangcor's assets (the house) has increased, and since Bill expects Dangcor will continue to make money and pay dividends, he's willing to buy my shares for $60 each.

Everyone "wins":
- The old guy who owned the house got to sell it and buy a retirement home in Florida.
- You get to found a business and make money with it.
- Dangcor's customers get a nice place to spend a weekend.
- I get a 20% return on my investment, plus dividends.
- Bill Gates gets to buy another asset to keep him afloat when Microsoft goes broke. ;)

Doesn't that make sense?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I've also come to the realization that money is pretty much subjective in value. Poor people will trade a lot more, and do a lot more, to get it, while rich people will throw it away like it's nothing in many cases. [/quote]

Then again, in many cases, poor people become (or stay) poor by wasting their money and rich people become (or stay) rich by being stingy. For every lazy playboy who's blowing a fortune on drugs, women and fast cars, there's probably a dozen members of the "underclass" spending what little they have on booze, cigarettes, and lottery tickets.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Capitalism is thriving but at a heavy toll on huge sections of the population.[/quote]

Which "huge sections" of the population of the United States are paying a "heavy toll" for the success of capitalism? Sure, there are some oppressed and exploited workers, but for the most part, Americans are not suffering from poverty.

The raft traffic between Cuba and the US still seems to be flowing predominantly northward. ;)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Everyone "wins":[/quote]

No they don't. The employees of a company who work their asses off to make the company profitable are having their welfare traded as commodity.

I still don't consider my analogy to be incorrect. When you have stocks, the shareholders trade ownership amongst themselves, and their chunks of the company gain or lose value dependant on the efforts of the workers of that company, and rarely do shareholders not directly employed by the company actually contribute anything other than that one time capitol investment to add value to the company. So basically the people working for the company are under all the pressure from the shareholders, and from their boss, who's salary is usually directly under the control of said shareholders. My question is: What gives these people the right to tell the company what to do when they've made their money back and then some(via dividens)? I don't get it. They actually loan a company money, are usually paid it back in dividens, and then they still own the chunk of the company, and play a role in demanding how that company functions.

So, as a shareholder, I'd be saying "Well, since I loaned you money a while back, now you have to continually make me more and more money while I sit back and don't do jack crap for your company.

Bonds just make so much more sense.

Also, all the small companies in the world could be doing ok, but whimsical behavior on the trading scene could crash our whole economy, even if it's really mostly imaginary money. We value our entire currency system on what is essentially glorified gambling, especially when one factors day trading in.

If I'm wrong, by all means tell me how.

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The raft traffic between Cuba and the US still seems to be flowing predominantly northward.[/quote]

Did you even read what I wrote above? I said Communism and Socialism are even worse than what we have. Of course they're coming here, our system is way better than theirs.

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Dangus

I also will disagree with you on the stock market, it is investing in a business. Yes the workers get screwed but they always have and always will.(even in socialist utopias)

I will add my own i dont get it to your example. You buy a 60,000 dollar house when your done paying it off you have paid two or three times what it is worth. Why is this considdered an investment? you didnt gain anything you lost your A**!Its worth the same 60,000 maybe a bit more but you paid 180,000 for it quite a loss.

Guns are a lot better invertment! :-)

When there is a better way i will be the first in line!!!!!

unforgiven
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I said Communism and Socialism are even worse than what we have. Of course they're coming here, our system is way better than theirs.
[/quote]

And that's my point. Our system isn't perfect, but it's the best thing going.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't get it. They actually loan a company money, are usually paid it back in dividens, and then they still own the chunk of the company, and play a role in demanding how that company functions.
[/quote]

You don't get it because you think that shareholders are "loaning" money to a company. They aren't! They're buying shares of the company. If you're a shareholder, you own part of a company. That's why you're entitled to pressure the company's management to make more money.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The employees of a company who work their asses off to make the company profitable are having their welfare traded as commodity.
[/quote]

Really? So if the company shuts down, they'll all fall over and die instead of getting new jobs?

When workers help make a company profitable, they get paid. The company gets things done and they get a paycheck. In fact, they get paid even if the company isn't profitable, although that situation can't last forever. (Look at Amazon.com; they haven't made a dime yet, but do you think their employees are working for free?)

It's the buying and selling of stocks -- the movement of capital -- that helps create the jobs in first place. The stock market is a mechanism that lets people who have wealth (investors) team up with people who have ideas (businessmen) to hire people willing to sell their labor (workers) to create new wealth. When publicly traded companies pursue bad ideas that don't create wealth (example: Chrysler making big, crappy cars about 20 years ago), the market takes wealth away from the owners (the stock price goes down) and re-allocates it to people with better ideas.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Also, all the small companies in the world could be doing ok, but whimsical behavior on the trading scene could crash our whole economy, even if it's really mostly imaginary money. [/quote]

Yes, it's always possible for people to hurt themselves through stupid decisions. But how likely is it that most (let alone all) of the millions of investors in the stock market are all going to engage in the same "whimsical behavior" at the same time? Some sectors of the economy are hurt some of the time by the consequences of "irrational exuberance" (or pessimism), but over the long term, the market is very efficient. If you don't think so, see how many stock traders have been able to beat the market over an extended period. Not many.

If you think that the stock market hurts workers, please explain how that happens.
 
Capitalism is already closer to achieving Marx's goals than any Socialist or Communist government has ever come (i.e. the workers own the means of production). I work for my company. I can also buy shares in it and own a piece of it if I desire.

A privatized system of Social Security allowing workers to invest part of their money in the stock market via private accounts would make people into workers AND owners in the system of capitalism.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And that's my point. Our system isn't perfect, but it's the best thing going.[/quote]

Just because something is the best doesn't make it good enough.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You don't get it because you think that shareholders are "loaning" money to a company. They aren't![/quote]

Yes they are, the whole point of offering stock is to gain more money to do things they want to do. This is also the point of a loan...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When workers help make a company profitable, they get paid. The company gets things done and they get a paycheck. In fact, they get paid even if the company isn't profitable, although that situation can't last forever.[/quote]

Yeah, but they hardly have much incentive to make it very profitable, and their share of the profit is being cut into by people who own mostly imaginary chunks of the company (basically until you own controlling share it's essentially imaginary).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It's the buying and selling of stocks -- the movement of capital -- that helps create the jobs in first place. The stock market is a mechanism that lets people who have wealth (investors) team up with people who have ideas (businessmen) to hire people willing to sell their labor (workers) to create new wealth.[/quote]

What does this offer that bonds do not? Bonds allow wealthy businessmen to put money into a business, get paid back with interest, and then move on.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Yes, it's always possible for people to hurt themselves through stupid decisions. But how likely is it that most (let alone all) of the millions of investors in the stock market are all going to engage in the same "whimsical behavior" at the same time?[/quote]

Unfortunately they seem to. There have been stock market dives directly relating to investor panic. The economic equivalent of someone yelling fire and everyone stampeeding for the exits.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you think that the stock market hurts workers, please explain how that happens.[/quote]

In some cases it helps them a great deal, but not always. I think bonds would be a much better solution, and a more realistic route.

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Just because something is the best doesn't make it good enough.[/quote]

Yes, but how do you define what's "good enough"? I would say that even the best can be better.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Yes they are, the whole point of offering stock is to gain more money to do things they want to do. This is also the point of a loan...[/quote]

Selling blood plasma, marrying a rich woman and robbing a bank are also ways to get more money, but that doesn't make them loans. ;)

Think about it this way: If you take a company public and I buy 100% of the stock, who owns it now?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What does this offer that bonds do not? Bonds allow wealthy businessmen to put money into a business, get paid back with interest, and then move on.[/quote]

Offer to whom?

For an investor, bonds have some drawbacks:

1) If interest rates are low, bonds don't pay much. (Conversely, for an entrepreneur, bonds are too expensive when interest rates are high.)

2) Inflation can make a bond lose money.

3) Bonds don't work well for businesses with low cash flow. Imagine, for instance, that you think that with $10 million, you can start a biotech firm that has a 25% chance of discovering a cure for cancer (worth $100 million) after ten years of research. But for the first ten years, you won't be making squat. How are you going to pay interest on a bond?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There have been stock market dives directly relating to investor panic.[/quote]

There was one back around 1984. We survived. :)

When a stock market dive does coincide with an economic recession, the dive is more a symptom of the slowdown than a cause.
 
Well, to address another traditionally socialist issue. Can anything be done about the absurd division of wealth between the super rich and the super poor?

I've been thinking a lot about that one as well. Not buying products made with slave labor in China and Mexico would probably go an awfully long way towards that goal.

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Dangus:

OK…. I start a company, work hard and increase my business to the point I can not handle it anymore. I don’t want to give up the business so I come to you and say, I’ll pay you a wage if you will do this in my business for me…. We negotiate the wage. Comes down to how much the increase in business is worth to me vs. how much of a wage you want for doing the work. Time goes on and it gets to the point that I now have several hundred people working for me. Am I exploiting labor? What keeps labor from doing what I just did? What stops any individual from starting their own business? Nothing but guts…. Think about it… why aren’t you the owner of your own business…. Bet it’s because you are afraid that you’ll fail and loose every cent you’ve got. Bet it’s because your afraid that you won’t be able to make enough to buy food with. And Don’t think employers don’t worry about their employees. I’ve seen many an owner with ulcers from worrying about how they were going to meet next weeks payroll. This is called risk. Should not those who have a higher degree of risk have the greater reward? As an employee, I don’t have to worry about much…. Just come in and do my job, get my paycheck and go home. An Employer has everything to worry about. Are the taxes paid. Will my customers pay me? Etc.

Now, lets take risk a little further. I take my life savings and start a company. I don’t have a clue as to how to run it, so I hire others with the knowledge to run it for me. Now what happens if the Company goes broke? I loose everything…. What about the employees I hired to run it for me? They move on to another job. May cost them some time and money looking for a new one, but not much.

How about stocks? What kind of risk is there in buying stocks? If a company declares bankruptcy, do you know the order that everyone gets paid out of the proceeds from the sale of the assets? Well there is a list you have to go by. First the Attorney’s handling the bankruptcy get paid. Next come the employees up to a maximum amount. Then the Government for their taxes. Next come the secured creditors (those who have loaned the company money and used assets as collateral). Next the unsecured creditors….. guess who gets what’s left, if any…. Yep that’s right the shareholders. And don’t think that shareholders don’t loose everything they have invested in a Company. There are about 9 business that don’t make it for every one that does.

Every wonder why the interest rate on a home loan is less than an unsecured loan or credit cards? Wonder why bonds have a higher rate of interest than a secured auto loan? It’s called risk. What are the chances that you will get paid back. What are the chances that you’ll make a decent rate of interest. If I am willing to take the risk, the rewards will have to be good enough to overcome the risks. That is what ownership is about. That is what all of our investments are about. Risk vs reward.

You think that bonds would be a better deal…. Well then who is going to take the risk or loss if the company goes bankrupt? The bond holders? If so then they will want a whole lot higher interest rate than they get now. The employees? Do you think they would be willing to put up their homes to pay the creditors? The employee has almost no risk.

I understand your frustration…. Your sitting back as an employee and seeing everyone make more than you. The big bosses make a whole bunch of money. The shareholders, etc. But when you come in to ask for a raise, it’s no, we have to show a profit for the shareholders. Well my friend, you have three choices. You can look for work elsewhere that will pay a higher wage. Or you can start your own business. Or just shut up and live with it. If you don’t have the guts to make your own way, then don’t complain about those that do.

Sorry to rant on like this, but what you are suggesting here is a classic case of socialism economics. Where we all work the same and all get paid the same. Just doesn’t work. Why? Because there is no incentive to do better. Why work any harder if you get paid the same as everyone else.




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Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Can anything be done about the absurd division of wealth between the super rich and the super poor?[/quote]

This is one of those situations where it's important to define exactly what the problem is.

Is the "division" really the problem? If the world had a fixed pool of wealth and the super rich got that way by stealing from the super poor, then I'd say so, but that's not the way the world works.

We could have everyone suddenly reduced to the poverty level of the super poor. This would end the inequality, and, sure, misery loves company, but civilization couldn't continue if we were all squatting naked in the woods and eating weeds to survive.

Or we could have everyone but the super rich fall over dead. This would also end the inequality, but, again, there would be some serious drawbacks.

So, what to do? It would be nice if we could arrange to have everyone living in mansions and eating lobster like the super rich. The catch, though, is that creating wealth is much, much harder than destroying it. We can't just conjure luxury items out of thin air.
 
If Larry Ellison grew so rich as to purchase the sun, would the Sultan of Brunei then be able to legitimately complain about the disparity of wealth between him and Larry Ellison? Would liberals bitch about a "sun divide" and start programs?

As time passes, I become increasingly skeptical of those concerned for the poor.

What, strictly, is wrong with poverty? And what is poverty? Even the poorest working folk have a roof over their heads. Almost all have hot and cold running water. Many have televisions. How does this compare to the !Kung San (the ! is a clicking noise), whose most expensive posession is a bow?

The !Kung San are not complaining. In fact, they are probably laughing at us.

Now, I hope this doesn't turn to talk of poor children. But if it does, there is an easy solution. Why would you birth beyond your means?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What stops any individual from starting their own business?[/quote]

The government for one. Fill out 50 different forms, hope you haven't forgotten any, pay a bunch of taxes, get lousy legal protections unlike big companies, etc.

Also, no capital. I've got hundreds of great ideas, but I don't even have enough money to approach people with them safely. Patents are rediculously expensive. I'm not going to expose my trade secrets to the whole world for the mere chance that those jerks might grace me with the right to own what I have rightfully invented and have to hand over 5000 dollars on top of that.

Currently I am sitting on top of a revolutionary new concept for paintball guns, but I can't afford to patent it, and I can't safely approach a paintball company about it. In fact, without a patent, or without lawyers, none of them will even talk to me.

Yes, in some cases pure tenacity allows someone to do what their bosses did, but that doesn't work for everyone. Hell I'm not even saying it should, but it's hard not to resent people sitting there with billions of dollars and earning more daily off interest than I'll likely earn in my entire lifetime.

I definitely think socialism isn't the answer. It has failed too often for any more chances. Communism, more of the same. Dictatorships? The rich ARE the government in those, so no. There doesn't seem to be a preexisting government and ecomonmic system that addresses these problems successfully, and that's a shame. It just doesn't seem to me that money was ever meant to be used quite in the way it's come to be used in, but I'm not sure what to do about it.

I definitely don't want everyone making the same amount of money. My friend Zach sits on his ass all day. I don't want him making what I make, what incentive is that for me? Still, it just bothers me when people have 80 billion in assets, and I have 800 in assets, and the difference in contribution to society doesn't justify that difference in income. I know I'm not worth what Bill Gates is to the average American, and I'm ok with that for now, I'm only 22, but I'm also not so worthless as to be making so much less than him that the difference can be most easily represented with exponents.

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
We have a "false economy" built on credit
"paper" and the real work is leaving our
country what remains is paperwork and service
type jobs and in time we will pay.!!!
 
Dangus:

I know of several people who have filed their own patents. How? They went to their friendly library and looked up the procedures for doing so. They also did the patent research on their own. Total cost to them of filing the patent Less than $100. All of the records and means to do so are in your library. Also there is the inventors guild, with various forums like this one, where you can go to get advise, talk to other people who have done it on their own. They can point you in the right direction.

My friend, you have the beginnings of being a rich person, but you lack the confidence and the desire. You have to be driven to the point where you will not accept no for an answer. You’ve been told that you can’t do this and you can’t do that for so long, that you believe it. Bull ****. If you want to patent your new gun design, then do it. If you want to sell your idea to a manufacturer the most simple way is to get them to sign a non-disclosure statement. Which in effects says that once you show them your idea that they can’t tell anyone else about it or patent it without your consent. You can also find copies of this type of an agreement in the library. I know of one client (I’m a CPA) who went to over 30 different manufactures with an idea, before he got one to even sign his agreement. But that one did purchase his idea. He now gets 12 ½% royalties.

It’s just that most people have been brought up today not to believe in themselves. They have received so much negative feedback in their lives that they take the attitude that I can’t do it. All those things that you listed as reasons for not being able to start your own business are just excuses. I can’t because I don’t know how… Well then get in and learn how. I can’t because of the legal liability. Well study the big company’s and find out how they are protected and do the same thing yourself. I can’t because I don’t have the time…. Well most of these people who have started a company from scratch work 18-20 hour days. You I assume are only working 8-10 hours per day… that still leaves you another 8-10 more hours that you could be working on your own business.

Guess what I’m saying is, that our media and government is not only lying about guns, they are lying and programming the people on the economy in the same way.

I know a lot of people who say that Bill Gates has way to much money. But I don’t know any of these people who would have the guts to walk into IBM and sell them a product that they don’t even own and then go out and buy that product, putting everything they own on the line to do it. Not a one of these people was or are willing to work 18-20 hour days. None of these people have the drive to keep at a task to find the solution when every one else is telling them it is impossible. You say it’s not hard to resent someone like Bill Gates for having all that money.. My friend, you are a product of liberal propaganda. The Liberal left wants you to resent these people. It makes their job of passing tax increases and en-slaving the people much easier. First they tell you that you can’t do the same thing, then they instill in you resentment against those that do. America is great, because these opportunities are available to anyone with the guts and desire to do it. Not talk about it, but get out there and do it.

Did you know that the average person who is rich, went broke three times before they made it?

No capital? How did others get their capital to start up an idea or business? Apple started out of their garage. Their initial capital investment came from selling part of the business to friends and relatives. Don’t have the know how to do something? If your idea is good enough you can find people who would be willing to work for a % of the Company. I personally have worked as the CFO for two companies now for only a % of the Company as my pay. Unfortunately both did not make it. But the point is that there are people out there who are willing to take the risk, if the rewards are there.

Just some more to think about. Knowledge is the key to success.



------------------
Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
Dangus,

Don't get fooled by stats that show the "absurd division of wealth" you're seeing into thinking of these as permanent and seperate "classes" of people. The virtue of the American system is the mobility of individual people to move between these "classes", and in general, they do. Bill Gates will probably never be poor again (he wasn't always this rich), but I believe that many, if not most, people you are seeing in your statistics do not remain statically in that catagory throughout their lives.

I personally believe that an unequal distribution of wealth is natural in a free and competitive market. Systems which use opression to try to remove this inequality invariably destroy wealth; they cannot create it. So people are only truly equal, in the way you are looking at it, when they are crushed into equal poverty (as in the former Soviet Union).

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Brady
(No relation to that $%#$ bill)
 
Dangus, if you want to start a business you most certainly can. You can also become rich if you explore the ways to do so and are so willing. But there are risks, as always.

I started my own business 13 years ago and things went well. Didn't make a ton of money, but I was comfortable. Then things went south and I had to give it up and sell everything. So, now I'm starting a new business. Any guarantees it will be successful? Absolutely not. It all hinges on my efforts and ideas, along with a _little_ bit of luck.

Many of my friends, neighbors and relatives constantly complain that so-and-so is making too much money. Too much compared to what? And how did that person get to that position.
General Motors isn't going to appoint a CEO and pay him millions just for his smile. He has something to offer that others don't. It's the same reason that ball players and actors make so much money: they have a unique product to offer.

Class envy is a powerful tool, especially in politics. And it's quite easy to feel that envy, especially if you're driving around in a 12-year old Ford Ranger that's rusting out, doesn't have a muffler and barely runs (where do I post a "for sale" ad?). Then you see somebody in a shiny new Jaguar. It's easy to feel the envy, but more constructive to figure out how to get to the position where you can afford the Jaguar. If I get that envious feeling when I'm in my Ford, all I have to do is look at the bus stops and be thankful that I have _something_ to drive.

If there's any area of capitalism that irks me, it's the corporations constantly pulling in the reins on spending to the point where it's harder for the supplier to make a buck. But that's reality and, if a person's going to make it, he has to learn to play the same game.

Dick
Want to send a message to Bush? Sign the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/monk/petition.html and forward the link to every gun owner you know.
 
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