The myth that owning and shooting a Machinegun is unaffordable

M

Machineguntony

New member
True cost of shooting a full auto M16

I'm always trying to spread the word of responsible full auto ownership.

This morning, I was reading an article on TTAG about what people would do gun-wise, if they had unlimited money, such as winning a $500 million jackpot. I noticed a few people commenting on the cost of shooting full auto (btw, if you start thinking any amount of money is unlimited, it will eventually be gone. Ask MC Hammer, Mike Tyson, half of all lottery winners, or any professional athlete who goes broke after their careers are over).

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/09/robert-farago/desantis-gunhide-question-day-22/

I am going to try and dispel the myth that shooting full auto is expensive. My position is that it's not as expensive as people think. I'm going to talk about actually shooting the gun, not acquiring it. Cost of acquiring the gun is another issue. Let's talk about the acquisition costs at another time.

My position on shooting full auto is that it's not that expensive, especially when compared to some of the other things people do for shooting sports recreation and non-shooting sports recreation.

For purposes of this analysis, I'll consider the cost of new ammo and reloaded ammo to be the same. The reason for this treatment is that some people consider the time cost of reloading makes reloaded ammo more expensive than new ammo, even after the equipment has been amortized. I'm a reloader and I proudly have not purchased new ammo (except shot shells and 22LR) in about five years, but I can see the argument against reloading.

Here we go...

First off, you have to find plinking ammo, such as here:

http://www.bulkammo.com/rifle/bulk-.223-ammo.

Bulk 223 costs about 25 cents per round after S&H, no tax if purchased out of state.

For 1000 rounds, expect to spend about $250 average.

If the shooter wanted to put some work into it, I always get these emails from surplusammo.com announcing their 24 hour sale. For same cost, the shooter can get brass cased ammo for the same cost. If the shooter picks up his ammo and sells it on GB, the shooter can easily get $60 per thousand brass. This brings 1000 rounds down to $190.

But let's keep it at a stipulated $250 per thousand rounds.

Shooting by yourself, it's really hard to shoot 1000 rounds in a single range session on a single M16. By myself, nowadays, I usually shoot about 300-500 rounds per M16. That means, shooting new ammo, I spend about $125 per range session, maximum, with my M16.

That's not an amount that requires the shooter to be wealthy.

Compare to these shooting sports costs...

Precision rifle ammo costs about $2 per shot. I've easily shot 200 rounds on my 308 bolt gun, dinging steel targets. For magnum stuff or big stuff like 338 Lapua, $3-$6 per shot.

An afternoon of shooting clays costs about $60-$100 worth of clays and $100-$150 worth of the cheapest shot shells. Usually, this is what my friends and I spend for two to three people, so it's about $75 per person.

Shooting handguns with new ammo. Average Cabelas or Academy plinking 9mm ammo is $13 per 50. So 500 rounds would be $130.

Shooting a semi auto AR with new Cabelas or Academy ammo. $6 per 20 rounds, which is the cheapest ammo at Academy. $60 for ten boxes, 200 rounds. Most casual AR shooters do not go to Academy and search for the cheapest ammo. They'll buy the Federal or brass stuff that costs $10 per 20.

So when compared to the cost of other shooting sports, shooting full auto is either roughly the same or not that much more expensive than other shooting sports.

The myth that shooting full auto will break the bank comes from a misunderstanding of full auto ownership, often times from those who do not own full auto guns, who then imagine what it's like to own and shoot a full auto gun. I think the misunderstanding comes from the myth that full auto owners shoot their guns like this...

https://youtu.be/BSizVpfqFtw

If you shoot like that guy, yeah, you'll break the bank, but you'll also break your gun, like he did.

Also, another source of the myth, which is similar to the above, comes from the machine gun rentals. When going to a machine gun rental place, first off, they charge highly inflated prices for the machine gun experience. At most MG shoots, for 9mm SMG, it's about $1 per shot, or $30 per magazine. Rifle ammo is even more.

Secondly, then on top of that, the way they get their clients to shoot is not representative of what it's like to really own and shoot F/A rifles. They run a business selling MG rentals, and they want shooters to shoot fast and move on, so they can sell the next magazine to the next client.

You blow $30 on a magazine, at a MG rental, in less than 3 seconds. I can see why the casual shooter would think that shooting full auto would be expensive.

Owning and shooting your own M16 is a lot different.

When shooting a full auto, there's lots of other things that accompany the activity. Loading magazines takes much longer than emptying the magazines. You then chit chat with your friends. You check your targets and check your group sizes. You have to give the gun some time to cool down. Also, just like most of us don't just go to the range with one handgun or one AR, no one goes to the range with a single M16. If the M16 is your only full auto gun, then you shoot off a bolt gun or a handgun or some other accompanying firearm. Then five to 15 minutes later you go back to emptying two or three M16 magazines. Also, most M16 owners don't just mag dump the entire 30 rounds, like you would at a MG rental.

So let's figure an average range trip that includes full auto, with three other people. $150 for 500 rounds of ammo for the M16. $40 for 200 rounds of new steel cases 9mm. $50 for about 60 rounds of 308. $60 range fee for 4 people. Total is approximately $300 spread over four people, or $75 per person. That's hardly breaking the bank.

So real full auto shooting is not like the guy in the video above. It's a lot more affordable than most people think. If people think something is out of reach financially, they won't care about it. And if they don't care about it, then they won't fight/donate for it. How often have we heard people say that even if they repealed Hughes or even if I could buy a machine gun, I could never afford to feed it ammo.

For further reference, let's now compare the range trip to other entertainment activities outside of the shooting sports that millions of people enjoy.

Total cost of going to an MLB game for four people in 2016: $150

http://fortune.com/2016/04/03/mlb-ballparks-tickets/

Total cost of four people going to an NFL game in 2015: $600 ($100 per ticket average, and then parking and food and beverages).

http://www.statista.com/statistics/193595/average-ticket-price-in-the-nfl-by-team/

Average cost of four people going to the movies in 2016: approximately $70 ($9 per ticketx4, $20-$40 pop corn and sodas)

http://www.slashfilm.com/average-movie-ticket-price-2015/

Average cost for a family going to an amusement park, like Disney World: in the thousands, if you need to fly in, and in the hundreds if you live nearby and go often:

https://www.hipmunk.com/tailwind/hipmunk-travel-smackdown-disneyland-vs-disney-world/#.V9RoB-s8KK0

My favorite activity outside of shooting, skiing: varies, but in the hundreds if you live close and buy a season ticket and don't need to fly in; but in the thousands per three day ski trip. Skiing is way way more expensive than shooting full auto.

It's ok if someone doesn't like shooting full auto or if they think full auto is overrated. No one has to like or enjoy every shooting discipline. But full auto gets the unwarranted rap that it's unaffordable, so this unfairly colors many new shooters judgment on this discipline of the shooting sports.

In the end, it's my conclusion that...

It's a MYTH that shooting full auto is expensive.

What's your take?
 
machineguntony said:
By myself, nowadays, I usually shoot about 300-500 rounds per M16. That means, shooting new ammo, I spend about $125 per range session, maximum, with my M16.
Click to expand...

Very few people around here (wealthy or not) would be willing to spend $125 per range session. And that's just for you shooting. Take a couple of kids and their friends with you, they'll all want to shoot a couple of mags each. I find it difficult to expect a kid to pay for their ammo. Now you're up to several hundred dollars per range session.

I think you've pretty much verified that shooting machine guns is for the wealthy.

Now if someone wants to fly into Vegas and rent a gun for a few thousand rounds, that's about the equivalent of going on a Disney World or ski vacation. Most non-wealthy people don't do those too often.
 
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I could live with the ammo costs but what about the cost of MG acquisition and registration/permitting costs? I'm not being negative but curious. I have considered trying to obtain one but when I looked I just couldn't justify putting that much money into a single gun. I couldn't get and shoot other guns I enjoy. :rolleyes:
 
I am fortunately able to cover the cost of owning and shooting a full auto. What I don't have is a farm or some large piece of rural property. Even if I could find a range that allowed full auto I doubt that would be all that much fun. The best I've seen are videos of people out in the desert blasting away. Looks like fun but I don't want to live in the desert that bad.
 
It's impressive to see a full auto in action.
To each their own, but a semi auto shoots plenty fast enough for me.
With a lot less complication.
Enjoy yours, though.
One question - who chases your brass? :)
 
I don't think feeding a full auto requires you to be rich. After all, I've never dumped 30 rounds in one trigger pull... even with belt feed rapid rate of fire. 5-7 round bursts are appropriate, and if you aim your fire then you need a few seconds to get back on target.

I will say full-auto fire at paper a few yards away is of little interest to me... it's like "congratulations you hit the target 8 times from 20 yards." Instead, a range with numerous pop-ups at U/K ranges is much more fun with full auto... ala Army qualification course or a USMC fire and movement course.

But no, you don't have to be rich. Every time I shoot I typically have 3 kids (older son that would pay his way if I insisted, but I don't, and two girls 10 and 12) that I have to pay for as well. If we go to a for-profit range, with ammo... well I'm usually paying at least $150.00 between range fees, gas (if we drive to the 500 yd rifle range), and ammo. I'm not rich, I'm a cop and my wife is a teacher. So... it can be done.

Acquisition cost is another matter entirely... so is the discussion as to whether class III (full auto) firearms could be considered a good investment if you're willing to resale in the future. I thought about doing this 10 or 15 years ago... wish I would have.
 
Full auto weapons are expensive but not affordable.

Personally after serving in the military for 24 years and shooting over a dozen different kinds of weapons full auto I don't see the need for one. I don't have an itch to scratch and they are impractical for nearly all uses that I use my weapons for. While I could afford one I'd rather buy other stuff and get more out of it.

They are a lot of fun to shoot. However a family trip to Europe or wherever is also a lot of fun and will create more meaningful memories for us then a nice blaster and a few range sessions. I am not knocking anyone's choices in life I just choose to spend my (not unlimited) resources on what is important to me and my family.

I suppose if did have unlimited resources I might look at it differently.
 
No offense, but your argument basically consists of 'MG shooting is not prohibitively expensive for most because I know many people who do these other activities that are also prohibitively expensive for most.'
Most people are stuck trying to choose between a bronze and silver healthcare plan, full well knowing that if they reach the full year deductible on either they will be bankrupt anyways because they don't have $8-12K in the bank. Not to mention if the family has multiple separate plans and two or more members being in a serious accident will double or worse that deductible.
They can't spend $75 shooting trap with any regularity, shoot 500 rounds of handgun ammo, or afford to compete in precision rifle either.

Renting a full auto for a mag dump is affordable for most and gives them the experience they want.

Of course, if talking about just members of this forum, there are probably quite a few who can and do afford those activities.
 
It's a personal preference.
Look at what hunting out of state, the cost to keep a fishing / ski boat running, fly to go skiing in the winter, or motor sports. Or, have you taken a family of 4 to a Cowboys / NFL game lately? (Nothing like helping make a billionaire a multi-billionaire.). :) How about Vegas twice a year?

Tony's proposition is a bargain compared to most of these from a $ perspective.

If you like it and can afford it, go for it.
 
Unaffordable means different things to different people. How we spend our money is an individual choice. My choice would not be to put out that kind of cash for a few minutes of shooting fun.
 
My range trip today was about $25. 90 rounds of 9mm blazer for me and my girlfriend at the public range. My last splurge trip was breaking in my new CZ with 200 rounds which cost about $55. My usual range trip is a box or two of .22, a single box of 9mm and rarely a couple magazines of .223 or 7.62x39. I consider myself lucky to be able to shoot that much 3 or 4 times a month.

I have often said that if the registry were to re open for a day, I would take a small personal loan just to submit applications for guns I don't even have yet just to build them later :D but the exercise you list here is still unaffordable for me. Your one range trip might be my discretionary spending for an entire paycheck including fast food stops and tools for school
 
If the MG registry were open today it would be wide open for SF and FA AR's. The ATF would be buried in paperwork with delays of decades instead of the current years.
 
I get it. What you are saying is that shooting a machinegun isn't really any more expensive than some other shooting sports, leisure activities, or luxury ski vacations :confused:.

But only if your wealthy shooting buddy brings his machinegun.

Otherwise, a cheap transferable costs as much as a great used car.
A more typical transferable costs as much as a nice new car.
Something crazy like a minigun costs as much as a house.

Come on, man.
 
I guess if you have $25-30k to spare to buy a full auto then the cost of ammo would look like chump change.
 
I can't afford to have a chef prepare every meal for me, but I can afford to go out and eat once in a while.
 
I understand where the OP is coming from.

It's kind of like saying a minute isn't very long, however, that depends entirely upon what side of the bathroom door your on.

I treat them like fireworks myself, yeah they cost money, yeah they are wasteful but lots of fun too.

I also understand others put there money into other things they enjoy. Lots and lots of folks drive cars that cost them $50,000+ these days and pay payments on them until they are not worth much anymore, then do the same exact thing over again. If that makes sense then machineguns should too.
 
I'm looking forward to the next posts in this series...
"owning a yacht..cheaper than you think"
"mansions for pennies a day"
"Rolls Royce, daily commuter you can afford"
 
I never said that shooting a MG was cheap. I just said it's very affordable, especially compared with activities that millions upon millions of Americans do every day, every month, and every year. Many of those activities are not 'luxury activities' to the average consumer.

But I understand everyone's perspective.

At least once a month or so, at the range that I frequent, I get the question or comment, 'isn't that expensive?' I go into my explanation as to why it's not. I sometimes wonder if I'm making people's eyes roll. Based on some of the responses here, I guess I am.

I still think it's more perception than reality. Every weekend, for the last five weeks or so, my new long range shooting hobby involves lighting up 200-300 rounds of 308 accuracy ammo, which if new would run $30 per 20 rounds (dinging steel at hundreds of yards is so fun). If new, that's about $300-$400 worth of 308 per session (I reload so it's only about $100 actually). No one turns to me and say, 'wow that must be expensive'. Conversation is usually about what gun and what ammo I'm using. The cost issue never comes up, like it often times does with a machine gun.

I appreciate everyone's input.
 
$125 for a range session isn't expensive? LOL.

And the Class III guns are just so doggone inexpensive as well. It is just as easy to buy one as a new car that I will need to finance for the next 5 years.
 
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