The MYTH of the One Shot Stop
- Thread starter OBIWAN
- Start date
Thankfully, I've never had to fire at a human being (a couple of wannabe assailants changed their minds as I was about to fire, though; "zero shot stops"?? 
).
Fresh in my mind, though, is my "venison collection expedition" of less than two weeks ago.
Target: 90 pound (plus or minus . . .) doe (legal, in my state on that date)
Load: .30-06, 165 gr. JSP at approx. 2700 fps.
Circumstances: Unsuspecting target, standing broadside, 190 yards.
Result: heart/lung shot; complete penetration (fist-sized exit wound); followed blood trail (more of a "blood stream" for approx. 50 yards to dead deer.
I will never rely on a single service pistol round to drop a hyped-up (chemically or emotionally) 200+ pound assailant! My motto: Fire as fast as I can acquire, till I've won (or lost
)! If he gets my weapon, I intend for it to be empty!
).Fresh in my mind, though, is my "venison collection expedition" of less than two weeks ago.
Target: 90 pound (plus or minus . . .) doe (legal, in my state on that date)
Load: .30-06, 165 gr. JSP at approx. 2700 fps.
Circumstances: Unsuspecting target, standing broadside, 190 yards.
Result: heart/lung shot; complete penetration (fist-sized exit wound); followed blood trail (more of a "blood stream" for approx. 50 yards to dead deer.
I will never rely on a single service pistol round to drop a hyped-up (chemically or emotionally) 200+ pound assailant! My motto: Fire as fast as I can acquire, till I've won (or lost
)! If he gets my weapon, I intend for it to be empty!Danindetroit
New member
Very informative. Thanks for the post.
A Very Good Piece
I hope every CCL holder on this site reads it and takes it to heart.
But to me, and most other combat vets, it is old news.
There are statistics somewhere (I've seen them, I just don't remember
where) that say an ungodly amount of smallarms fire was expended for
every enemy casualty in the Viet Nam war. Seems to me like it was
something like 3000 rounds per enemy KIA.
Anyway, in my opinion, the reason for that high number is, that we
"Grunts" learned pretty quickly that a round, or two, or three, would
not necessarily stop an enemy soldier. Especially with that anemic
Mattell .22 rifle they gave us. So after a while, we stopped expecting
one or two-shot 'kills'. We got to the point where we just unloaded a
wall of bullets as fast as we could, because we knew
that it might take eight or ten hits to put an NVA down.
I'm not saying we didn't shoot accurately, we usually did. It is just
that "overkill" became the common occurance, because we all knew
just two or three rounds wouldn't do it.
I guess it's the same with handguns. Unless and/or until you disrupt
a nerve center, there is just no guarantee the bad guy is going down.
I hope every CCL holder on this site reads it and takes it to heart.
But to me, and most other combat vets, it is old news.
There are statistics somewhere (I've seen them, I just don't remember
where) that say an ungodly amount of smallarms fire was expended for
every enemy casualty in the Viet Nam war. Seems to me like it was
something like 3000 rounds per enemy KIA.
Anyway, in my opinion, the reason for that high number is, that we
"Grunts" learned pretty quickly that a round, or two, or three, would
not necessarily stop an enemy soldier. Especially with that anemic
Mattell .22 rifle they gave us. So after a while, we stopped expecting
one or two-shot 'kills'. We got to the point where we just unloaded a
wall of bullets as fast as we could, because we knew
that it might take eight or ten hits to put an NVA down.
I'm not saying we didn't shoot accurately, we usually did. It is just
that "overkill" became the common occurance, because we all knew
just two or three rounds wouldn't do it.
I guess it's the same with handguns. Unless and/or until you disrupt
a nerve center, there is just no guarantee the bad guy is going down.
I've often wondered about this one shot stop idea and considering what I've seen and heard about deer walking or running tens of yards after having their chest blown apart, I had thought that humans were just really weak. But I've been finding more and more stories where a human was shot several times and lived to tell the tale or didn't collapse immediately.
I think surviving has something to do with an internal will to survive. I know animals will fight ferociously when cornered and will do anything to stay alive. They just don't give up. But there are cases where people have been shot in a non-vital location and die shortly after. I think it's because those people believe they're going to die and they just give up trying to survive so they die.
This of course, doesn't apply to certain wounds. Any CNS hit I've heard of was instantly effective.
I think surviving has something to do with an internal will to survive. I know animals will fight ferociously when cornered and will do anything to stay alive. They just don't give up. But there are cases where people have been shot in a non-vital location and die shortly after. I think it's because those people believe they're going to die and they just give up trying to survive so they die.
This of course, doesn't apply to certain wounds. Any CNS hit I've heard of was instantly effective.
A good CNS hit is usually effective....but you hear about people shot "in the head" and they don't die.
Anecdotal evidence at best...lots of that available!
Kind of like "Energy Dump"...AKA..
Everything I know about physics I learned in gun magazines.
The important point here is that knowledge is the real "stopping power"
Wanna carry a mousegun...fine....but do it with the realization that just because "I wouldn't want to be shot with a .32acp" does not raise it to some magical, mystical plane of effectiveness.
(I don't particularly want to be shot with an Airsoft gun, but it is unlikely to kill me"
Handguns themselves are a compromise...they are handy...not particularly powerful.
(Most of us would carry a rifle if we KNEW we were going in harms way)
Calibers below 9mm are a further compromise
Bad science, and bad information (with a dash of ego) can lead to bad decisions and mindsets that can get people killed.
That is why I get a little cranky when I see someone touting a new wonder cartridge as the "ultimate" because "someone told them that one time a guy got shot and he died"
Or...gelatin testing doesn't mean anything simply because my favorite round did badly. (probably used the wrong weight denim)
Use an effective caliber bullet combination
Add training and mindset
And hope for luck
Stay Safe,
Bill
Anecdotal evidence at best...lots of that available!
Kind of like "Energy Dump"...AKA..
Everything I know about physics I learned in gun magazines.
The important point here is that knowledge is the real "stopping power"
Wanna carry a mousegun...fine....but do it with the realization that just because "I wouldn't want to be shot with a .32acp" does not raise it to some magical, mystical plane of effectiveness.
(I don't particularly want to be shot with an Airsoft gun, but it is unlikely to kill me"
Handguns themselves are a compromise...they are handy...not particularly powerful.
(Most of us would carry a rifle if we KNEW we were going in harms way)
Calibers below 9mm are a further compromise
Bad science, and bad information (with a dash of ego) can lead to bad decisions and mindsets that can get people killed.
That is why I get a little cranky when I see someone touting a new wonder cartridge as the "ultimate" because "someone told them that one time a guy got shot and he died"
Or...gelatin testing doesn't mean anything simply because my favorite round did badly. (probably used the wrong weight denim)
Use an effective caliber bullet combination
Add training and mindset
And hope for luck
Stay Safe,
Bill
Going down hard
I'd like to add my own big game hunting experience as a comparison to using a handgun for self defense.
Of some four dozen big game animals I have seen taken by rifles in sport hunting, only two have dropped on the spot. One was a head shot that penetrated the skull of a deer at a very long range. The other was a shot that hit the spinal cord in the neck of a large black bear. All the others, mostly deer, elk and bears, were able to flee from 30 to 150 yards, or 10 seconds to a minute or more after mortal rifle wounds . I am not including the wounded anmials with poor shot placement that required multiple hits, went much longer or got away.
I have also bow hunted deer and bear. I have never seen an animal hit with an arrow drop when hit.
I have never shot any big game animal with handgun. The one time I tried was for wild boar. I felt undergunned with a .44 magnum.
I have never shot a human, but using a handgun to do so, I do not expect immediate movie-like results. Call me chicken, but I plan to run away as soon as possible, either before or after starting to shoot. I figure the likelihood of a perp delivering a fatal shot to me when I am beyond 25-30 feet decreases dramatically with distance, especially if I do not run in a straight line and keep my spine and head low. I would prefer to live to fight again than to die winning a fight.
I believe this FBI report to be accurate and instructive. I believe the advice to carry the biggest caliber pistol you can for concealed carry personal defense is also very wise. With the multitude of compact .40's and .45's out there today, it is entirely possible for the dedicated person.
To rely on a .32 or or anything less than at least a good 9MM as a primary is a big trade-off for convenience, IMO, despite the numerous officer fatalities reported with such guns. Their effectiveness depends on extremely close range and extremely lucky shot placement.
One of those statistics was a cop here who stopped an individual with a .22 hideout gun on a chain around his neck. At just the right time the perp pulled the gun (when the officer's .40 was in the holster) and shot the officer downward in front of the neck, above the vest, into his heart. The officer fell back, returned fire hitting the perp once, and then died. The perp was arrested at the hospital being treated for his wound.
Is the lesson of the story that a well-placed .22 will defeat an armed and trained officer with a .40? No. It is that a criminal wanting to kill you will use stealth and deceit. That is not typically a tactic available to civilian CC.
To physically stop an attack immediately beyond the will of an attacker requires the central nervous system shot 99% of the time. The necessary power to penetrate and deliver such damage has a significantly higher percentage of probabiltity from a larger, more powerful caliber.
I am personally aware of an individual shot in the forehead with 1911 .45 ACP FMJ. He immediately went down, unconcious, with the bullet lhaving traveled under his scalp around to the back of his head. He regained concsciousness within a short time, had the bullet removed and took Tylenol for a couple of days for a bad headache.
There is no guarantee how a handgun bullet or bullets will work in any given situation. That is why avoiding the situation in the first place is the best defense, and the next is to get away from it as fast as possible if possible, even if you take a hit or two. Standing in a target range position firing at one or more moving perps until your gun is empty is an invitation for death if they get lucky and you don't, especially if they are 30, 40 or 50 feet away (which under the law in many jurisdictions might not be considered self defense any way).
Sorry to ramble. That was just such a good article, although skewed toward law enforcement rather than general self defense, that a lot of thoughts popped out. One further point I don't think was directly mentioned--if officers are allowed to defend themselves and need this information and training, why not the citizens who the officers are protecting, but may not be able to get to? What's the difference? Each of our lives is just as valuable as the other. Thanks for posting. CB3
I'd like to add my own big game hunting experience as a comparison to using a handgun for self defense.
Of some four dozen big game animals I have seen taken by rifles in sport hunting, only two have dropped on the spot. One was a head shot that penetrated the skull of a deer at a very long range. The other was a shot that hit the spinal cord in the neck of a large black bear. All the others, mostly deer, elk and bears, were able to flee from 30 to 150 yards, or 10 seconds to a minute or more after mortal rifle wounds . I am not including the wounded anmials with poor shot placement that required multiple hits, went much longer or got away.
I have also bow hunted deer and bear. I have never seen an animal hit with an arrow drop when hit.
I have never shot any big game animal with handgun. The one time I tried was for wild boar. I felt undergunned with a .44 magnum.
I have never shot a human, but using a handgun to do so, I do not expect immediate movie-like results. Call me chicken, but I plan to run away as soon as possible, either before or after starting to shoot. I figure the likelihood of a perp delivering a fatal shot to me when I am beyond 25-30 feet decreases dramatically with distance, especially if I do not run in a straight line and keep my spine and head low. I would prefer to live to fight again than to die winning a fight.
I believe this FBI report to be accurate and instructive. I believe the advice to carry the biggest caliber pistol you can for concealed carry personal defense is also very wise. With the multitude of compact .40's and .45's out there today, it is entirely possible for the dedicated person.
To rely on a .32 or or anything less than at least a good 9MM as a primary is a big trade-off for convenience, IMO, despite the numerous officer fatalities reported with such guns. Their effectiveness depends on extremely close range and extremely lucky shot placement.
One of those statistics was a cop here who stopped an individual with a .22 hideout gun on a chain around his neck. At just the right time the perp pulled the gun (when the officer's .40 was in the holster) and shot the officer downward in front of the neck, above the vest, into his heart. The officer fell back, returned fire hitting the perp once, and then died. The perp was arrested at the hospital being treated for his wound.
Is the lesson of the story that a well-placed .22 will defeat an armed and trained officer with a .40? No. It is that a criminal wanting to kill you will use stealth and deceit. That is not typically a tactic available to civilian CC.
To physically stop an attack immediately beyond the will of an attacker requires the central nervous system shot 99% of the time. The necessary power to penetrate and deliver such damage has a significantly higher percentage of probabiltity from a larger, more powerful caliber.
I am personally aware of an individual shot in the forehead with 1911 .45 ACP FMJ. He immediately went down, unconcious, with the bullet lhaving traveled under his scalp around to the back of his head. He regained concsciousness within a short time, had the bullet removed and took Tylenol for a couple of days for a bad headache.
There is no guarantee how a handgun bullet or bullets will work in any given situation. That is why avoiding the situation in the first place is the best defense, and the next is to get away from it as fast as possible if possible, even if you take a hit or two. Standing in a target range position firing at one or more moving perps until your gun is empty is an invitation for death if they get lucky and you don't, especially if they are 30, 40 or 50 feet away (which under the law in many jurisdictions might not be considered self defense any way).
Sorry to ramble. That was just such a good article, although skewed toward law enforcement rather than general self defense, that a lot of thoughts popped out. One further point I don't think was directly mentioned--if officers are allowed to defend themselves and need this information and training, why not the citizens who the officers are protecting, but may not be able to get to? What's the difference? Each of our lives is just as valuable as the other. Thanks for posting. CB3
Accual police shooting (long)
I would like to add an experience to this, if I may. This is from an acual police shooting, I was not involved, but was in the post mortum investigation.
Had a call of a gas drive off (the perp took off without paying for the gas that he had pumped). The clerk was good enough to get a very rudimentary discription of the driver and a fairly good discription of the car and tag number. The officer spots the car a short distance away and pulls him over. The officer exits his patrol vehicle and starts approaching the perp's vehicle. The perp is watching the officer in his side mirror and as the officer approaches, he opens fire with a .22 cal. revolver. The officer, who is wearing a vest, is hit twice. He was hit in the lower left sholder first, and then he was hit in the chin, just behind his jawbone. The officer starts firing back, his only target being the perp's head. He tracks the perp's head across the seatback of the perp's car as long as he can see it, then moves back to his (the officer's vehicle), gets down behind the door, and reloads. After he reloads his revolver, he calls in to dispatch, shots fired, and he is hit. I happened to be in dispatch when his call came in: "Shots fired and I am hit". Then "Betty (the name of the dispatcher) I am bleeding, but I feel OK." The perp died from multiple gunshot wounds to the head. The officer was hit in the vest (lower left sholder) and the chin. The bullet that hit him in the chin entered, did a "U Turn", exited through his chin and hit him in the chest as it went on to the ground.He saw the bullet bounce off of his chest. The emergency room doctor told him that GOD wanted him to live.
The point of all of this is that this was a "textbook" shooting. The officer, even though hit, did not quit. He returned fire, terminated the threat and went back to cover to reload. He then got on his radio, called for assistance and gave a status report to the dispatcher.
4 O all the way.
I would like to add an experience to this, if I may. This is from an acual police shooting, I was not involved, but was in the post mortum investigation.
Had a call of a gas drive off (the perp took off without paying for the gas that he had pumped). The clerk was good enough to get a very rudimentary discription of the driver and a fairly good discription of the car and tag number. The officer spots the car a short distance away and pulls him over. The officer exits his patrol vehicle and starts approaching the perp's vehicle. The perp is watching the officer in his side mirror and as the officer approaches, he opens fire with a .22 cal. revolver. The officer, who is wearing a vest, is hit twice. He was hit in the lower left sholder first, and then he was hit in the chin, just behind his jawbone. The officer starts firing back, his only target being the perp's head. He tracks the perp's head across the seatback of the perp's car as long as he can see it, then moves back to his (the officer's vehicle), gets down behind the door, and reloads. After he reloads his revolver, he calls in to dispatch, shots fired, and he is hit. I happened to be in dispatch when his call came in: "Shots fired and I am hit". Then "Betty (the name of the dispatcher) I am bleeding, but I feel OK." The perp died from multiple gunshot wounds to the head. The officer was hit in the vest (lower left sholder) and the chin. The bullet that hit him in the chin entered, did a "U Turn", exited through his chin and hit him in the chest as it went on to the ground.He saw the bullet bounce off of his chest. The emergency room doctor told him that GOD wanted him to live.
The point of all of this is that this was a "textbook" shooting. The officer, even though hit, did not quit. He returned fire, terminated the threat and went back to cover to reload. He then got on his radio, called for assistance and gave a status report to the dispatcher.
4 O all the way.
The thing that amazes me is that this is considered to be some kind of breakthrough news item.
This isn't some black art.
This isn't something that occurs so infrequently that we don't have a data on the subject.
Several people are shot every day in every decent sized city. Throughout the world, hundreds, if not thousands of people are shot on a dialy basis with weapons of all kinds. We know the results. We might not know every single detail, but we know enough that information like this article isn't some kind of earth shaking revelation.
"The emergency room doctor told him that GOD wanted him to live. "
One thing to think about with any shooting victim: if they are seen in an emergency room, they have survived the shooting plus probably close to an additonal 1/2 hour. The hospital never sees the "one shot stops".
This isn't some black art.
This isn't something that occurs so infrequently that we don't have a data on the subject.
Several people are shot every day in every decent sized city. Throughout the world, hundreds, if not thousands of people are shot on a dialy basis with weapons of all kinds. We know the results. We might not know every single detail, but we know enough that information like this article isn't some kind of earth shaking revelation.
"The emergency room doctor told him that GOD wanted him to live. "
One thing to think about with any shooting victim: if they are seen in an emergency room, they have survived the shooting plus probably close to an additonal 1/2 hour. The hospital never sees the "one shot stops".
HighVelocity
New member
I read that pdf a few days ago. It really made me think about what, if anything, I could do in an encounter to better my chances if the first couple of shots didn't do the job.
Two things came to mind. One, be "on the move", not just stand there pulling the trigger. Two, yell at the BG as loud as possible DIE, or YOU're HIT or GO DOWN as I'm firing. (power of suggestion).
Maybe these things sound cheesy and maybe they wouldn't work, but maybe they would. I hope I never have to find out.
Two things came to mind. One, be "on the move", not just stand there pulling the trigger. Two, yell at the BG as loud as possible DIE, or YOU're HIT or GO DOWN as I'm firing. (power of suggestion).
Maybe these things sound cheesy and maybe they wouldn't work, but maybe they would. I hope I never have to find out.
#1 There is no magic bullet! Yes there are recorded one shot stops.
I was a witness to seeing a single 230gr Hydrashock do it right! One round to chest! DRT=Dead Right there! Then at the same time I saw a guy botch a suicide attempt. He blew the left side of his face off. But still swinging the gun around the room. It was a 45ACP.
#2 People need to shoot till the aggression is terminated! There is no other way to put! Why beat the dead horse over and over! People need to reasssess and resassess. Employment of any firearm requires that a person reassess the situation.
I was a witness to seeing a single 230gr Hydrashock do it right! One round to chest! DRT=Dead Right there! Then at the same time I saw a guy botch a suicide attempt. He blew the left side of his face off. But still swinging the gun around the room. It was a 45ACP.
#2 People need to shoot till the aggression is terminated! There is no other way to put! Why beat the dead horse over and over! People need to reasssess and resassess. Employment of any firearm requires that a person reassess the situation.
orionengnr
New member
good thread, though as someone said, no revelations...
I've seen enough of the "deer conspiracy theory" to make an educated guess. A deer lacks the power of reason--it cannot say, Oh Crap! My guts are blown out! I'm bleeding like a stuck pig! I'm going to die! A person can, but if sufficiently doped up or crazed, may not use his power of reason, and therefore may not stop until actually physiologically disabled.
Walter, no offense to you or yours, but I read that study to and the conclusion it reached was not that the 223 was inadequate, but that the full-auto feature of the M-16 encouraged large volumes of fire, hence the 3000 to 1 ratio. BTW, if I remember correctly, it tracked rounds expended versus casualties inflicted from the Civil War to the Vietnam War, and the trend was fairly consistent (upwards).
I concur with the premise of "shoot until the threat is neutralised". I read a lot of 45 vs 9mm vs what have you and agree that shot placement is more important than caliber or bullet. Having said that, I firmly believe that using the very best high performing ammo increases your odds when you do hit the right spot. I can buy 500 rounds of .45 FMJ for $80, and I do. And then I shoot it all up on the range...along with another $80 worth of Hydra Shoks, just to make sure they function in my Para. Don't have to guess which load goes in the Para when it goes in the nightstand, do you?
I've seen enough of the "deer conspiracy theory" to make an educated guess. A deer lacks the power of reason--it cannot say, Oh Crap! My guts are blown out! I'm bleeding like a stuck pig! I'm going to die! A person can, but if sufficiently doped up or crazed, may not use his power of reason, and therefore may not stop until actually physiologically disabled.
Walter, no offense to you or yours, but I read that study to and the conclusion it reached was not that the 223 was inadequate, but that the full-auto feature of the M-16 encouraged large volumes of fire, hence the 3000 to 1 ratio. BTW, if I remember correctly, it tracked rounds expended versus casualties inflicted from the Civil War to the Vietnam War, and the trend was fairly consistent (upwards).
I concur with the premise of "shoot until the threat is neutralised". I read a lot of 45 vs 9mm vs what have you and agree that shot placement is more important than caliber or bullet. Having said that, I firmly believe that using the very best high performing ammo increases your odds when you do hit the right spot. I can buy 500 rounds of .45 FMJ for $80, and I do. And then I shoot it all up on the range...along with another $80 worth of Hydra Shoks, just to make sure they function in my Para. Don't have to guess which load goes in the Para when it goes in the nightstand, do you?
Double Naught Spy
New member
Point of reference, it is one shot DROP, not stop, if you read the article. As Obiwan noted over at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=119843&highlight=DROP , his point was to denote the aspect of "real stopping power." Fine, but when y'all read, keep in mind that the FBI study is NOT the M & S study. While they have some parallels in some parameters and terms, and "drop" and "stop" rhyme, there are some serious differences. One shot STOPS can be had by incapacitating shots, or by causing enough mental or physical anguish that the target modifies his behavior sufficiently (i.e. stopping an attack) such that the shooter need not shoot again. One can get one shot STOPS with warning shots that don't strike a person.
One shot drops, as in the article, are about the Hollywood stereotype of the bad guys going down with just one shot from the good guy, that hits the bad guy.
One shot drops, as in the article, are about the Hollywood stereotype of the bad guys going down with just one shot from the good guy, that hits the bad guy.
Some personal thoughts
Why would Hollywood's portrayal of the effectiveness of firearms be different from the inaccurate way they portray other things? The one shot stop, if taken from accurate data, is about the only real way we have to evaluate the effectiveness of bullets and compare them.
There are lots of one shot stops---and sometimes it doesn't work that way. If one follows his/her training the assailant will be obsorbing bullets till he's down and no longer a threat, and we won't know if one or two bullets would have done the trick. Stopping to evaluate can get you killed.
Why would Hollywood's portrayal of the effectiveness of firearms be different from the inaccurate way they portray other things? The one shot stop, if taken from accurate data, is about the only real way we have to evaluate the effectiveness of bullets and compare them.
There are lots of one shot stops---and sometimes it doesn't work that way. If one follows his/her training the assailant will be obsorbing bullets till he's down and no longer a threat, and we won't know if one or two bullets would have done the trick. Stopping to evaluate can get you killed.
Double Naught Spy
You may be correct, but remember that M&S created their own definition of the OSS in order to evaluate the STOPPING POWER of individual bullets in various calibers. That's why they didn't include Central NS hits, or hits to none vital areas, or multiple hits, or misses---all of which can produce one shot stops without telling us much about the effectiveness of the ammo they used. Only one shot to the torso was considered in order to evalate the bullet. Of course, they had to first create a definition of what actually constituted the OSS based on the individual's actions---controversial for sure, but who's definition couldn't be picked apart by those who have their own definition.
It's understandable that law enforcement might have a different angle from which to shine light on the subject, and include all shootings that involve their officers, without re: to how many times, or where the perp was hit.
You may be correct, but remember that M&S created their own definition of the OSS in order to evaluate the STOPPING POWER of individual bullets in various calibers. That's why they didn't include Central NS hits, or hits to none vital areas, or multiple hits, or misses---all of which can produce one shot stops without telling us much about the effectiveness of the ammo they used. Only one shot to the torso was considered in order to evalate the bullet. Of course, they had to first create a definition of what actually constituted the OSS based on the individual's actions---controversial for sure, but who's definition couldn't be picked apart by those who have their own definition.
It's understandable that law enforcement might have a different angle from which to shine light on the subject, and include all shootings that involve their officers, without re: to how many times, or where the perp was hit.