The Marines are going with the Benelli M4...

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Isn't there some rule of Gov'ment logic mandating that anything which works well must be replaced? That's the only way this makes any sense. Let's see, what's the last flawless weapon left in the military now that the 1911 and the M1 are gone? The pump action shotgun. Well obviously it's got to go. The Mossy doesn't have nearly enough moving parts to break down, and it's far too easy to use. Most importantly, it's not nearly expensive enough and it lasts far too long.

I have to wonder if the folks who make these decisions are the same ones who'll have to actually use the weapons. Something tells me they aren't. I damn sure know they aren't the ones who have to pay for these new wiz-bang toys.
 
Parkerized vs. Blue

The military prefers parkerization because it's a bit more durable than bluing.

I like it because it doesn't seem to scratch as easily.
 
The M4 is actually a hybrid for Benelli who for the record is owned by Beretta and all Benelli shotgun barrels are made by Beretta. When I say hybrid, the M4 is part recoil operated and part gas operated.

As for Benelli Super Black Eagles and Montefeltros, they are wonderful sporting clay and upland bird guns but as a good duck gun? I must disagree based upon personal experiences not second hand information. They may fair well in a duck blind or boat but when you are wading in chest waders in flooded timber or swamps for ducks, they cannot meet the challenge. I have seen three Benelli Super Black Eagles, One Montefeltro die in the duck blind all were within two years old.

The problem is the recoil mechanism in the stock, it either sweats or is drug through the water in the flooded timber and said recoil assembly starts to rust causing massive problems with reliable function. I will go out on a limb to tell you that the Marines will be disappointed with the Benellis over the long haul. Accelerated tests are one thing but when slow rust is factored in, the story is altogether different.

Now for those of you reading this who have plunked down your $1,200.00 or so bucks on a Benelli, be of good cheer. MACK'S PRAIRIE WINGS of Stuttgart, Arkansas, USA has the sure cycle which is a replacement recoil mechanism made of stainless steel and for $150.00 you can remedy the problem.

Benelli Shotguns and Beretta M9's you ask? Well, well we owe this to our namby pamby, nickle dime politicians who need their heads kicked up in their rearends. The 1911 and the 870 pump are unequaled in performance but instead we reward a foreign company with the spoils of providing some of our military sidearms! Yes I bird hunt with a Beretta Shotgun but the idea of Beretta getting both the pistol and shotgun contract is apalling! But then again it's politics and look what the politicians did with the anthrax deal on capital hill. They had the clean up crews in congressional offices within hours but the Washington DC area post office had to wait for weeks to get attention and after a death occured, then the politicos came running.

Sorry for the rant. Am I a moderator or a gun expert? No. Do I have fifteen links for youy to go to to back up my story? No. What I am is a guy who since the age of seven for 30 years has hunted the swamps and river bottoms of SE Arkansas and N Louisiana. I know that actual, unbiased expereince is not allowed for gun writers but that's all I have to offer.

God Bless our Soldiers. God Bless America and outfit them with AMERICAN MADE weapons in man-stopping calibers noit something the weaklings in NATO or the UN approve!
 
Sure, it couldn't be about having a better tool for the job. It couldn't be about removing operator error out of the mixture by removing the pump cycle and replacing it with semi auto operation. Using your logic, we all should still be using single action revolvers.

The M4 represents the next step forward in the combat shotgun. Unlike the Super Black Eagles and Montefeltro's you mentioned, it's designed that all major maintenance is done by the end user - the soldier. He's able to break it down into major components, all thoughtfully designed so that he can keep them ready for combat, not out in the duck blind.

If Remington, or Mossberg, or Winchester / Browning / FN had come up with a shotgun as good as the M4, then we'd probably be hearing about how it would have been a better alternative. Unfortunately, I don't see any out there being released with these specifications. Maybe Scattergun or Vang will release a new Border Patrol model with a rail system, collapsible stock, and other gadgets. Until then, nothing is matching the features on the M4.

Does anyone here actually have some first hand experience with this new firearm, or is everyone armchairing this?

Kevin
 
There's one simple tenant to live by in the shotgun world: pumps are more reliable than semi-autos--------------period. Therefore a pump is the best tool. With a semi-auto, it's not a question of how it will break down but when. I've seen it with all of them.

I am anything but armchair and typically I shy away from any topic I am unfamiliar with but in this case I know what I am talking about. Some may not like but its a fact and call me cocky if you will but it's just reality. Rifle? I am a novice. Handguns? I am a novice novice at best. Shotguns you ask? I know em.

I'm sorry but dragging a shotgun through mud, sand and freezing water---------not to mention the occasional times they are dropped in the water totally and then fired within minutes with no cleaning is a realistic measure of performance. You're telling me that bring a shotgun out of a warm environment to the shock of 20F and then back again after shooting fifty to hundred rounds per day and not cleaning it for weeks isn't punishment?

No sir we're not talking arm chair in my case and I will still tell you that the pump is more reliable. To imply that favoring a pump is akin to a single shot pistol is well let's just say a long reach. If you think the best win out a politically controlled trials I have some things to sell you. Ask any soldier slogging through mud or sticky desert sand about the M9's if you need help grasping the concept.

Nothing personal you see but common sense is common sense. If a soldier can't cycle a pump, maybe they need a desk job. Having a soldier field service a Benelli semi auto beyond field stripping? Get real.
 
I'll say this again - does anyone have any first hand, actual experience with the firearm in question?

Comparing your SBE in the duck blind to a weapon designed expressly for combat is like apples and oranges. The SBE is inertia / recoil operated. The M4 is gas operated. It's capable of mounting heavy night vision equipment and other accessories that would render useless the standard Benelli.

From the Bennelli M4 page -
http://www.benelliusa.com/m4_super90/index.htm
Benelli engineers developed and patented a unique new "auto regulating gas operated" (ARGO) system. Dual, stainless self-cleaning pistons located just ahead of the chamber operate directly against the proven rotating bolt and eliminate the need for complex linkages found on other gas autos. The result..."Marine" tough reliability under the harshest environmental conditions.

Five samples of the Benelli M4 Super 90 were delivered to Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland on August 4, 1998. The guns were put through an intensive, grueling test for safety, function and performance. Subjecting them to mud, sand, baking heat and extreme cold, the M4s beat out the competition to be chosen as the new U.S. "Joint Service Combat Shotgun."
Click to expand...

m4_broken_down.gif


About corrosion:
Steel parts are black matte phosphated and aluminum matte hard-anodized for low visibility in night operations and corrosion resistance.
Click to expand...

Hard-anodization is a mother of a coating - I know first hand because to prove points I regularly abuse hard anodized SureFire's compared to the standard models. We all know about how "parkerizing" holds up. Judging from the above picture and the stripped models I looked at first hand, it looks extremely easy to clean and keep cleaned - easier than a M16 truthfully.

As for the "operator error" - if operating a shotgun is so easy under stress, how come we still hear about "short stroking" and all sorts of other failures? Much easier to pull be a charging handle and release... plus you get a semi consistant stoppage drill across all your long arms.

Just my 2cents as a former grunt.

Kevin
 
You are taking Benelli's word for it and believe me they said the same things and do say the same things about the other shotguns they make with durability and corrosion resistance. Heck Beretta lauds the M9 as well.

The fact is a Remington 1187 is a better shotgun than a Benelli SBE. I have seen the 1187 shoot circles around Benellis in durability terms thought they may not actually shoot as fast.

With the semi-auto, You are relying on a series of small parts that get banged up pretty badly in a shotgun. They break and fail I don't care who makes the weapon. I love my Beretta 390's but they too will eventually fail while my 870 keeeps going and going and going.

Any 870 could be designed to work with light or lazer systems and the design materials could be treated to resist corrosion. I'm no grunt nor am I a writer or expert but I guarantee you I have used all types of shotguns as much as any soldier or law enforcement officer anywhere. As far as operator error goes, it's easier to make a semi jam than it is to make a pump jam. I have had it happen with both.

I am not trying to engage in a grudge match but again in thirty years of sporting clays, duck hunting, quail hunting,pheasant hunting and dove hunting. I have never seen a semi that is more reliable than an a pump. What I have seen is that semi-autos spit out extractors, jam and corrode and you can bank on it.

Time will tell. I may be eating crow in the future but I have a cast iron stomach.
 
The fact is a Remington 1187 is a better shotgun than a Benelli SBE.
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Whoopee-crap - I don't see the Marines going with the Super Black Eagle, do you?

With the semi-auto, You are relying on a series of small parts that get banged up pretty badly in a shotgun. They break and fail I don't care who makes the weapon.
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Eventually, on a long enough time line, anything will break. Lets look at the components involved -
Rotating bolt head: Hmmm, we have those on AR's all the way up to .50 cal - seem to do just fine.
Trigger group: Again, if common parts can handle .50, 12 guage shouldn't be a problem.
Gas pistons: We use them in the M240 and M249 machine guns, they should work dandy in a shotgun.
Recoil buffer and bolt group - seem to be adapted from the already successful Benelli's. Other than the "extractor" problem, how many other failures are common?

Guess what else? Gas operated versus pump operated means true one handed use - how many pump action shotguns offer that? Not to easy to pump when you've been shot in the arm.

Furthermore, with the incorporation of stainless steel parts where it counts, it sounds like this is tougher than your standard Benelli. If it has a stainless receiver, it definately is.

I am not trying to engage in a grudge match but again in thirty years of sporting clays, duck hunting, quail hunting,pheasant hunting and dove hunting. I have never seen a semi that is more reliable than an a pump.
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And again, you are looking at dove / clay / whatever guns not primarily designed for combat. Polished Walnut is not designed to be submerged for hours on a combat swim. Bluing is not as corrosion resistant as parkerization. Standard (type 2) anodization is not the same as Military grade type 3 hard anodization.

You can have 100 years experience driving Model T's and that doesn't make you qualified to comment on how a Ferrari handles without touching it.

So again, this all leads back to the "I've never seen it work, so therefore it can't possibly work" syndrome. Again, if yours was the prevalent thought, we'd still be shooting lever actions and single action revolvers.

Kevin
 
I hold to my position. The semi-auto will not be as reliable as the pump. Serious fowl hunters who start out in March in Hawaii turkey hunting and go until the end of January each year will shoot a shotgun as much as any soldier will----------probably more. I base my conclusions from this type of usage not just a couple of seasons.

One handed operation? Boy I'll bet that'll be real accurate. I think I'll stay with an aimed shouldered position. One handed? Yep I can see that-----------shot one is level and by the end of the magazine, the barrel is straight up in the air.

Meanwhile, let's see what happens like I told ya, I can eat crow. The ultimate test will be not four or five hand-picked shotguns during an accelerated trial bit actual use over a span of say two years. I'ma patient. I can wait.

For the record, I like lever actions and I would take a garand over a .223 or 7.62 x 39 any day of the week.
 
Yeah because, after all, every modern army in the world is using lever actions and 8 round clips.
:rolleyes:

I give up - I bow to your "wisdom" - quail hunting shotguns are obviously a "match" for combat shotguns, which is why we see so many trap guns in use with the Border patrol and FBI. The conditions are exactly the same after all.

Failure to maintain your weapon is neglect on the part of the operator. Period. If you haven't learned that in 30 years of duck hunting, no wonder you like pump guns so much.

Have fun with your cap and ball weapons.

Kevin
 
You guys can argue the merits of one type of shotgun over the other until the cows come home and it won't prove a thing. "The proof will be in the pudding" as they say.

Personally, I think the Benelli will prove to be a big mistake. I smell the "brother-in-law" effect here. Someone is calling in favors to get a deal like this. That's just my opinion, but I fail to see how the Mossberg 590-A1 proved to be unsatisfactory when in the trials to select a new shotgun it was the only one to stand up to the military destruction tests. Now, all of a sudden, it's no good. Yeah, right.

Let's see what happens to the Benelli a year or two down the road.
 
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