The Magnum Disease.
- Thread starter Zorro
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Gunplummer
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All they are is a normal hunting round +$$$.
math teacher
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The 300 magnum is only a little faster than a 30-06, so why not use the ought-six? But then the ought-six is just a little faster than the 308, so why not use it? However the 308 is only a little faster than the 300 Savage, so how about using it? The 300 Savage is just a bit faster than than the 30-30, so following the current line of reasoning, the 30-30 should be fine for Brown Bear at 200 yards!
Each has its place. Magnums offer little or no advantage for most deer hunting, but for open country hunting for elk or moose, or for hunting the big bears, they have their place.
Each has its place. Magnums offer little or no advantage for most deer hunting, but for open country hunting for elk or moose, or for hunting the big bears, they have their place.
I have gotten to the point that I believe our culture is a creation of corporate advertizing bureaus. We have been taught, in the mass media, that velocity is the alpha and omega of everything. For generations we have been reading “articles” that are little more than advertizing copy about how “we need” a magnum.
If you notice, a magnum will compensate for poor shooting skills. All you have to do is hit the poor animal, the magnum will do the rest. I would say, 99.9% of the rubbish we read in Gun magazines and the like, are ads convincing us that you can compensate for awful shooting skills by buying something. The more you spend, the better your hit probability.
I have been shooting competitively for several decades now, and accuracy is a skill you learn by shooting vast quantities of rounds down range. When you are arse deep in brass, you are just starting to get it.
Where I live, the woods are very dense and think the longest shot I have had was around 25 yards. I hit one deer holding my slug gun out like a pistol and firing. The deer had walked up on me, sleeping on the ground. There are locations where you can see, maybe a 100 yards, there are locations over fields where you can see 500 yards, but the long shots are very darn rare and I have never deer in the field. They stay in the deep dense woods during daylight. For most of my deer hunting, a slug gun is just the ticket. Hits very hard, leaves a big hole, and within range of most everything I have ever seen.
I have driven out West. I have stood on some of those tall mountains, I swear I saw Australia on the edge, but so what. Let’s say I hit a deer across one of those wide divides, how the heck would I ever get there. And how the heck would I ever find it? I have spent 15-30 minutes looking for squirrels that I shot not more 25 yards off. Moving towards the spot, the light, the brush covered woods changed so much, I lost my orientation. Had to go back to the original shooting spot to figure just what direction to go. I can’t imagine finding a deer 400, 500 yards away. By the time I got there, the woods would look totally different.
Ever since cheap chronographs came out, the magnum crazy has dampened somewhat. Now you can measure the velocity and compare against all those advertising claims. I am of the opinion that most people have figured out the blast and the recoil are not compensated by the little velocity increase. Magnums are loud! They kick hard! You flinch!!!
If you notice, a magnum will compensate for poor shooting skills. All you have to do is hit the poor animal, the magnum will do the rest. I would say, 99.9% of the rubbish we read in Gun magazines and the like, are ads convincing us that you can compensate for awful shooting skills by buying something. The more you spend, the better your hit probability.
I have been shooting competitively for several decades now, and accuracy is a skill you learn by shooting vast quantities of rounds down range. When you are arse deep in brass, you are just starting to get it.
Where I live, the woods are very dense and think the longest shot I have had was around 25 yards. I hit one deer holding my slug gun out like a pistol and firing. The deer had walked up on me, sleeping on the ground. There are locations where you can see, maybe a 100 yards, there are locations over fields where you can see 500 yards, but the long shots are very darn rare and I have never deer in the field. They stay in the deep dense woods during daylight. For most of my deer hunting, a slug gun is just the ticket. Hits very hard, leaves a big hole, and within range of most everything I have ever seen.
I have driven out West. I have stood on some of those tall mountains, I swear I saw Australia on the edge, but so what. Let’s say I hit a deer across one of those wide divides, how the heck would I ever get there. And how the heck would I ever find it? I have spent 15-30 minutes looking for squirrels that I shot not more 25 yards off. Moving towards the spot, the light, the brush covered woods changed so much, I lost my orientation. Had to go back to the original shooting spot to figure just what direction to go. I can’t imagine finding a deer 400, 500 yards away. By the time I got there, the woods would look totally different.
Ever since cheap chronographs came out, the magnum crazy has dampened somewhat. Now you can measure the velocity and compare against all those advertising claims. I am of the opinion that most people have figured out the blast and the recoil are not compensated by the little velocity increase. Magnums are loud! They kick hard! You flinch!!!
stillquietvoice
New member
shot placement is more important than velocity. sounds to me like you are overcompensating for domething that isnt up to par.
Boogershooter
New member
Get ready this might be a long one. Some people like a big boom and lots of power. Some people like precision. I was impressed as a kid by the man in camp who killed the most critters so I listened to what he said. I was also impressed by the big numbers the man with the magnum was spitting out so I listened to him as well. I honed my skills with what I had from listening to the good hunters. As I got older and realized I could make longer shots than the 30-30 was capable of and the 243 had enough momentum to effectively kill, I wanted a magnum. Yes velocity matters or CCI would be making lots of 55 grain 22lr. Nown I'm a Lil older and I don't often use the big magnums but it's still fun to bring atleast one out each year for a bambi or two. I also don't walk half a mile to my stands anymore I take a 4wheeler or sidexside.
The problem I see now is everybody wants these super light rifles and everybody wants to be Carlost Hathcock. A light rifle in a magnum chambering is a mix for special purposes. U shorten the barrel and you lose velocity from the magnums anyway. Lightweight rifles predominantly don't shoot as well as bench rest rifles because of shooter error not the gun. Any mistakes in form are less forgiven than in the heavyweight rifles.
Having said all this; if I had listened to the old timers in camp I would have learned the most but they were old and boring. Alot of choices we make are because of how we were unknowingly influenced as kids. Boy I sure wish I could go back in time and listen to the elders. I will also watch what I say infront of others kids at camp now days.
Accuracy matters.
Penetration matters.
Velocity matters.
The problem I see now is everybody wants these super light rifles and everybody wants to be Carlost Hathcock. A light rifle in a magnum chambering is a mix for special purposes. U shorten the barrel and you lose velocity from the magnums anyway. Lightweight rifles predominantly don't shoot as well as bench rest rifles because of shooter error not the gun. Any mistakes in form are less forgiven than in the heavyweight rifles.
Having said all this; if I had listened to the old timers in camp I would have learned the most but they were old and boring. Alot of choices we make are because of how we were unknowingly influenced as kids. Boy I sure wish I could go back in time and listen to the elders. I will also watch what I say infront of others kids at camp now days.
Accuracy matters.
Penetration matters.
Velocity matters.
Gunplummer
New member
I can't say I am a fan of Magnums, but it is because of what Slamfire posted. I simply do not need one in my hunting areas. The part I do agree with is the ad about the bad hit kill. I have seen what hi-velocity bullets do to a gut shot deer. You will almost certainly get that deer, and be scrubbing the insides when you butcher it. Slower, heavier bullets, maybe not.
Boogershooter
New member
Yes it's funny how whitetail deer are regarded as hard to put down but everybody on here drops em in their tracks and shoots them with premium bullets for a good blood trail. I like fast cartridges and I like ballistic tips. When u mix high velocity with a heavy and fast energy transfer they normally do drop. I've seen some of the best bench rest shooters in the world miss deer. Magnums do make some people flinch and understandably so. I've seen with my own 2 eyes people brag about their magnum and say they flinch but they do when they get to my range. Odd isn't it? But don't ridicule people because they shoot a bigger gun than you, after all magnum rifles matter.
I used to deer hunt with a 7 Mag, toted it to Wyoming a couple times for antelope and it is a fantastic round, never any problems. been many years since I had a need to shoot over 200 yards though and the .280 and 7-08 have worked fine for that. Ain't nothing wrong with launching .30 cal bullets out of a .30-378 if that is what one wants to do, just not for me. magnums sometimes require a little more care in bullet selection but when paired correctly they will do the job with power to spare.
The Magnum Disease was caused and created by one of the most successful marketing campaigns in history. There is no game animal in North America, including big bears, that needs a magnum of any kind to kill.
That Weatherby add would get 'em charged with false and misleading advertising now.
That Weatherby add would get 'em charged with false and misleading advertising now.
stillquietvoice
New member
hooligan1 there isnt anything wrong with shooting magnum cartridges. i shot 06 for years even used 7 mm mag. had to sell mine due to both bills and too heavy recoil after rotater surgery and only after recovery. decided my best chance to lose sensitity was to start with a lower recoiling rifle and work back up my next gun is 7 mm-08. that overcompensation comment was intended for those who ridicule "guys on the internet" for not shooting magnums.
Duh!! That's the whole point, and a valid reason for buying one.
But at the same time this is a topic I'm conflicted on. I own one rifle in 300 WSM. I know I don't NEED it, but I like both the round and the rifle. I also own several AR's and a bunch of 30 round magazines. There are some people who tell me I don't NEED those either. But I like them and NEED has nothing to do with it.
From time to time there will be someone with an anti-magnum rant. I don't understand, if you don't want an extra 200-300 fps then don't buy a magnum. There are some people who can put it to use.
The really amusing part is when alternatives are suggested they often have more recoil than the magnums. A 30-06 and 7mm RM have near identical recoil. Rounds like 35 Whelen and 338-06 and 12 ga slugs have recoil almost identical to 300 WM, but with less performance. A 45-70, depending on the load, will far exceed 375 mag recoil, and give less performance. Choosing a magnum can often mean more performance on game and LESS or equal recoil.
Boogershooter
New member
Jmr I agree almost entirely with what you said except the 12 gauge slug. Shooting off bags it kicks harder than any rifle I own. And I own alot. May just be my gun vs yours. My 300 wsm in browning albolt II don't kick a bit more than my model 70 featherweight in 308. It's just the difference in the fit and make of the stock and recoil pad. I have a 300wm in the abolt II that will rattle your teeth and toes at the same time. I have several weatherbys that don't hurt to shoot but will just about jump off the bench. Both of my 338 winmags are model 70 supergrades and are very pleasant to shoot but a ruger#1 tropical in the same round isnt. My wife will shoot my 338's but won't touch my model 70 featherweight in 270. It just flat out hurts and is probably the worst of all the rifles I own as far as feeling recoil. The 416 rigby moves me backwards alot more but it doesn't hurt like the 270. I have several other 270's that I would let my kids shoot if they wanted. Hope this helps somebody.
All good points JMR40
It gets SO old hearing the same old garbage generalizations. 200 fps is negligible, they kick too bad, they are too expensive, they are overcompensating, they are unnecessary etc.
I assure you there are real people who can use the extra velocity, don't flinch when they shoot them, can afford them, and don't care what others think because what a man chooses to shoot is his own business. The "disease" with hunters these days is they worry too much about how other hunters do things and the calling for witch hunts about it. Get off the couch and go hunt something
BTW I'm sure the cavemen had these conversations all the time too:
Caveman #1: "Derg makes his bows out of willow and his arrowheads are made from obsidian. They fly faster and penetrate deeper."
Caveman #2 "Derg's new-fangled bow is a gimmick. My caveman grandpa didn't need any extra velocity and obsidian is too expensive to fling at a mammoth."
Caveman #3: "Bow and arrow? That's cheating! My old man used to just club the mammoths..."
It gets SO old hearing the same old garbage generalizations. 200 fps is negligible, they kick too bad, they are too expensive, they are overcompensating, they are unnecessary etc.
I assure you there are real people who can use the extra velocity, don't flinch when they shoot them, can afford them, and don't care what others think because what a man chooses to shoot is his own business. The "disease" with hunters these days is they worry too much about how other hunters do things and the calling for witch hunts about it. Get off the couch and go hunt something
BTW I'm sure the cavemen had these conversations all the time too:
Caveman #1: "Derg makes his bows out of willow and his arrowheads are made from obsidian. They fly faster and penetrate deeper."
Caveman #2 "Derg's new-fangled bow is a gimmick. My caveman grandpa didn't need any extra velocity and obsidian is too expensive to fling at a mammoth."
Caveman #3: "Bow and arrow? That's cheating! My old man used to just club the mammoths..."
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Having been to magnum land and back, I understand why people like them. You can be sloppy in range estimation because a magnum cartridge shoots the same bullet as a standard cartridge 20-40% faster and the bullet has a correspondingly flatter trajectory. They dump a bunch of energy into the animal so your shot placement doesn't need to be so precise. They do so at a higher price in several ways: more recoil, more muzzle blast, more ruined meat, more weight, more more more.
I was just as guilty as the rest of them. Then I started enjoying the hunting more than the shooting. I remember hunting with my brother, sitting on a grassy ridge in eastern Washington looking over the Snake River, grass rippling in the wind, sunny skies, tall mountains, and he looks all around then turns to me and says "now I know why you do this". If I hunted for the meat, I can buy prime rib cheaper than I can get venison. If killing them was all there is to it, I can kill a couple hundred ground squirrels in a day. I do it for the outdoors, shooting a deer is secondary. I like hunting, probably why I bowhunted for years. I like to see if I can get closer. But hey, if you just gotta, go ahead. I won't tell.
I was just as guilty as the rest of them. Then I started enjoying the hunting more than the shooting. I remember hunting with my brother, sitting on a grassy ridge in eastern Washington looking over the Snake River, grass rippling in the wind, sunny skies, tall mountains, and he looks all around then turns to me and says "now I know why you do this". If I hunted for the meat, I can buy prime rib cheaper than I can get venison. If killing them was all there is to it, I can kill a couple hundred ground squirrels in a day. I do it for the outdoors, shooting a deer is secondary. I like hunting, probably why I bowhunted for years. I like to see if I can get closer. But hey, if you just gotta, go ahead. I won't tell.
I used a 7mm Rem mag as my main hunting rifle for about 10 years. Way overkill for deer but it certainly did the job. Coyotes at 400 yards were no problem. Took it elk/mule deer hunting and it shined brightly. I finally became recoil conscious and had to put the magnum aside but I really can't fault either the 7mmRM or 300 Win mag-they're just more than I can handle these days.