The Israelis know what a Democratic win means: weakness

[Alex_L]

Clarification number 3789: all money aid for Israel given exclusively for purchasing American weaponry and for R/D projects which are a matter of interest to US Army.
This ~3 bln aid is about of 5% of Israel's budget and can not be considered as critical. More than that, when in 90th Netaniyahu goverment made a weak attempt to give up this aid, it got severe refusal from Washington. Because it is the form of subsidary of US own weapon industry by American goverment. And when Israel purchases US production paying US money, it adds his own money in good quantities.
Still, US support is critical for Israel, but it is not about money aid, it's about diplomatic and military support in really harsh situation like war. American "air bridge" can deliver much-needed weapons in such a case.

The claim of "Iraq proxy war" is really funny. Weak Saddam had not presented a threat for Israel, but now Iraq is pracically under Shiites rule, the effective Iranian ally. And this can become a threat very soon.
I've heared claims that the last Lebanon war was made because Bush told to Olmert to wage it. These silly claims are always made by leftists.

I personally sorry about the result of elections. Nevertheless, US and Israel will be allies for any foreseeable future. Just because there are no other American allies in this region.

 

[Red Grant]

I've been to liberty.org site, too many one line sound bites, and links to their own work.

..........and have you found out that one of the "defense" of Israel's version turned out to be a fraud?

Here's the link that debunks Israel's version that this was an accident.
http://www.ussliberty.org/photofraud.htm

Here's the link that shows www.ussliberty.org site honored by many non-partisan professional organizations and patriotic organizations.
http://www.ussliberty.org/kudos.htm

Israel has made amends, and paid reparations.

Not sufficient enough, according to the survivors of USS Liberty.

........advocating nuking Jerusalem sets off alarm bell.

I agree, they just need to make amends enough to satisfy the survivors of USS Liberty.

 

[Red Grant]

Liberty or no, Israel is the only western-style republic in the region.
...
For that reason if no other, I'm inclined to say that supporting them is a Good idea.

In another word, does this mean you believe a western-style republic should be allowed to kill US servicemen/women or citizens with impunity?

 

[mthalo]

The Liberty incident debate will probably go on longer than the "who is the true messiah" debate.

I do know the there have been ten U.S. investigations into the matter, and all have concluded that it was a mistake and reparations were made.

It was a time of war, and ugly things happen in wars. How many U.S. soldiers have been killed by U.S. bombs?

 

[Red Grant]

I do know the they have been ten U.S. investigations into the matter, and all have concluded that it was a mistake and reparations were made.

mthalo, I don't want to be a pain, but could you give me the links that shows these "ten" U.S. investigations?


If you can't find the links, then could you at least tell me which U.S. organizations have conducted these investigations and have concluded that it was a mistake?



According to a companion site of ussliberty, http://www.usslibertyinquiry.com
no full court of inquiry has been concluded.


In fact, that's exactly what survivors of USS Liberty have been demanding for all these decades, full investigation into the matter.

It was a time of war, and ugly things happen in wars.

I agree, ugly thing did happen to USS Liberty.

How many U.S. soldiers have been killed by U.S. bombs?

When U.S soldiers get killed by U.S. bombs intentionally by other U.S. soldiers without sound military reason and with no authorizations from above, a full investigation should be conducted and those soldiers responsible should face what they deserve.


When U.S. soldiers get killed by U.S. bombs accidentally by other U.S. soldiers, again a full investigation should be conducted and those soldiers responsible will have their career ended for all practical purpose, and in fact, even might serve prison time.


Are you implying then that just because U.S. soldiers have been killed by U.S. bombs either accidentally or intentionally, it's o.k. for another nation to kill U.S. seamen either accidentally or intentionally?

 

[Red Grant]

To everyone bashing Israel, come on

Am I one of those bashing Israel?

I figured everyone knew that Israel still gets support and is allowed to conduct whatever business it wants because it is a measure of control and suppression in that disgusting region.

"Disgusting region"? Please explain, "Disgusting" in what way?



If that region is that disgusting, then why does U.S. bribe Egypt with billions of dollars of U.S. tax payers?

That region is a mess and with many of them wanting to go nuclear,:barf:

I agree the region is a mess, now, why do you think many of them want to go nuclear?



The open secret, Israel herself is Nuclear, and at least perceived to be given a free hand in the region by U.S. has nothing to do with many of them wanting to go nuclear?

 

[Red Grant]

Nevertherless, US and Israel will be allies for any forseeable future.

Do allies spy against one another?

Has Israel spied against U.S.?




You said, foreseeable future, Foreseeable according to whom?

and how long is this forseeable future in more or less concrete terms or conditions, according to this "whom"?

Just because there are no other American allies in the region.

So according to you, Egypt, Turkey, UAR, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq (current government), Dubai are not U.S. allies?

 

[Benonymous]

Pah!

All this talk about Israel..... it's not even a real country! Check the map in 1945 it was called Palestine then! In my book, it still is.

 

[Kaylee]

So then... Germany isn't "really" unified anymore, because in the 40's we split it up? Or Texas isn't really a state because a hundred years before that it was in Mexico? Things change, B.

 

[threegun]

Dave R,

I disagree. What would Clinton have done had the Iranians done the nuclear sabre rattling thing? Well, let's look at what he did with North Korea. He gave them millions in aid to promise not to develop nuclear capability. Which they did, anyway, just not quite as publicly.

I have not seen a Dem be stong on national security since Kennedy.

Agreed. The Demoncrats have a history of appeasement. Yes the Demoncratic victory equals weakness........history says so as do the Demoncrats themselves in there pull out now, lets negotiate with madmen rhetoric.

 

[mthalo]

Red,
Here are the ten investigations.

1)U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry June 10-18, 1967
The attack was a case of mistaken identity. Calm conditions and slow ship speed may have made American flag difficult to identify. No indication the attack was intended against U.S. ship.
2)CIA Report June 13, 1967 The attack was not made in malice and was a mistake.
3)Joint Chiefs of Staff Fact Finding Team (Russ Report) June 9-20, 1967 Outlined "findings of fact," bud did not make any findings about the actual attack.
4)Clifford Report July 18, 1967 No premeditation, but "inexcusable failures" by Israeli forces constituing "gross negligence."
5)Senate Committee on Foreign Relations 1967 Secretary of Defense McNamara testified he supported conclusion that the attack was not intentional.
6)Senate Armed Services Committee Feb. 1, 1968 No conclusion. Secretary McNamara makes comparison of attack on Liberty to that on Pueblo with regard to uncertainty about what was happening at the time of the incident.
7)House Appropriations Committee April-May 1968 Navy communications "foulup" and no conclusion regarding Israeli actions. Much of report remains classified.
House Armed Services Committee May 10, 1971 Critical of Navy communications, no conclusion regarding Israeli actions.
8)Senate Select Committee on Intelligence 1979 Responding to critical book by Liberty crewman James Ennes, Senate investigation found no merit to his claim attack was intentional.
9)National Security Agency 1981 Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian ship as a result of miscalculations and egregious errors.
10)House Armed Services Committee June 1991 Responding to request from Liberty Veterans Association, Subcommittee on Investigations launched probe that concluded there was no evidence to support allegations made by the Association and no reason for further investigation.

Are you implying then that just because U.S. soldiers have been killed by U.S. bombs either accidentally or intentionally, it's o.k. for another nation to kill U.S. seamen either accidentally or intentionally?

No, I am not. All I'm saying is that in war, terrible mistakes get made.
Forty years later, with all our technological advancements, it still happens.

One thing I can agree with you on this issue, it should not be forgotten.
I wouldn't want the Holocaust forgotten.

 

[Limeyfellow]

Agreed. The Demoncrats have a history of appeasement. Yes the Demoncratic victory equals weakness........history says so as do the Demoncrats themselves in there pull out now, lets negotiate with madmen rhetoric.

Hmm yes it really shows with WW1, WW2, Korea and starting of Vietnam. If that doesn't show democratic appeasement nothing does.

 

[Greg Bell]

Limey,

The Democrats of old are no more. Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, Scoop Jackson, etc. These were men of vison and honor. Today's Democrats are the top-heavy with leftists who spent the cold war shilling for the Soviets. It took them 10 years, but they finally found another enemy despicable enough to favor over their own country. Today, they are more concerned with the rights of terrorists than protecting America.

 

[Red Grant]

I do know the there have been ten U.S. investigations into the matter, and all have concluded that it was a mistake and reparations were made.

You had made that post on Nov. 11th, 04:08pm, on Page 1 of this thread.



Even according to the post you made on Nov. 15th, 09:38am, on Page 2 of this thread, showing those "ten" U.S. "investigations", certainly not all ten "investigations" have concluded that it was a mistake.



"investigation" #3, #6, #7 in your post on Nov. 15th, 09:38am, on Page 2, did not certainly conclude that it was a mistake, did they? as you had claimed eariler on Nov. 11th, 04:08pm?


_________________________________________________________________



Now, I'm sorry to inform you that much of these "ten" "investigations" are frauds. In fact, some of them most likely have neven even taken place, that is, according the the Library of Congress research done at the request of USS Liberty Veterans.

And others from these "ten", either the chief legal council disowned the initial conclusion as a fraud, or the very authors disowned the interim conclusion excusing Israeli action as unproven.

I gotta get back to MetaStock, and make some money, but I'll be back and explain why.

 

[Red Grant]

Now, I'll proceed methodically all of these "ten" "investigations".

1)U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry, June 10-18, 1967 The attack was a case of mistaken identity. Calm conditions and slow ship speed may have made American flag difficult to identify. No indication the attack was intended against U.S. ship.

This is #1 of these "ten" "investigations". And here comes the rebuttal.



According to Capt. Ward Boston, the chief legal counsel to the Court of Inquiry, the court found that the attack was deliberate, but reported falsely that it was not, because they were directed by the President of United States and the secretary of defense to report falsely.



And here's what the senior legal advisor felt about this "court of inquiry":


The senior legal advisor to the Court of Inquiry reflected that, in his entire career, he had never seen court of inquiry appointing letters with such limited authority, or an investigation made in such haste.

The court's hearing began before the Liberty even arrived in Malta, and the report was completed just 10 days after the attack.

The Court commented on this haste in the official record:

"The Court of Inquiry experienced no unusal difficulties incident to conducting the subject proceedings except for the necessity of investigating such a major naval disaster of international significance in an extremely abbreviated time frame.


Another word, this was a "court of inquiry" in name only. (and that's why I had stated earlier there was no full Court of Inquiry.)


You can find more at http://www.usslibertyinquiry.com/arguments/american/investigations.html

 

[Red Grant]

2)CIA report June 13, 1967 The attack was not made in malice and was a mistake.

This is the #2 of "ten" "investigations".


..........except for the fact that there was no investigation. This was simply a statement made without any first hand account.


Then-CIA Director Richard Helms later reported in his autobiography that the still Classified final CIA report found that the attack was planned and deliberate.

3)Joint Chief of Staff Fact Finding Team (Russ report) June 9-20, 1967 Outlined "findings of facts", bud did not make any findings about actual attack

This was #3 of "ten" "investigations".


.......except for the fact that this was not an investigation into the attack.

This was an inquiry into the mishandling of several messages intended for the ship.

It did not exonerate Israel (as you had claimed earlier on Nov. 11th 04:08pm Page 1 of this thread), because it did not in any way consider the question of culpability.

4)Clifford Report July 18th, 1967 No premeditation, but "inexcusable failures" by Israeli forces constituing "gross negligence"

This was the #4 of "ten" "investigations".


........except for the fact that this was really not an "investigation".


Clark Clifford was directed by Lyndon Johnson to review the Court of Inquiry report and the interim CIA report and "not to make an independent inquiry."

His was merely a summary of other reports, not an "investigation" as alleged by Mr. Cristol. (That's where you got your "ten" "investigations" exonerating Israel? Mr. Cristol's site? Did you check his "credibiliy" problems?)

Even more important, Clifford wrote later that he regarded the attack as deliberate.

You can find more at http://www.usslibertyinquiry.com/arguments/american/investigations.html

 

[threegun]

LimeyFellow, Democrats of old cannot be compared to the Demoncrats of today. As Greg Bell pointed out the good Dem's are gone. Now the Hippy generation has taken over your party. Liberalism has run rampant in the party. It is currently the party of weakness and appeasement without a doubt. Mentioning the Dem's of old, the good Dem's, in the same breath as todays garbage is a disservice to those old timers.

 

[Red Grant]

5)Senate Committee on Foreign Relations 1967 Secretary of Defense Mcnamara testified he supported the conclusion that the attack was not intentional.

6)Senate Armed Serviced Committee, Feb 1, 1968, No conclusions. Secretary Mcnamara makes comparison of attack on Liberty to that on Pueblo with regard to uncertainty about what was happening at the time of the incident.

These are #5, and #6 of "ten" "investigations".



...........except for the fact that these were not bona fide investigations into Liberty, but budget hearings.

7)House Appropriation Committee April - May, 1968, Navy communications "foulup" and no conclusion Israeli actions. Much of report remains classified.

House Armed Services Committee, May 10th, 1971 Critical of Navy Communications No conclusions regarding Israeli actions.

This was #7 of "ten" "investigations" that supposedly exonerated Israeli actions.


Except, again, this was not an investigation into Liberty, but a budget committee meeting which explored the issue of lost messages intended for the ship.

8)Senate Select Committee on Intelligence on 1979, responding to critical book by Liberty crewman, James Ennes, Senate investigation found no merit in his claim that attack was intentional.

This was #8 of "ten" "investigations".


And this is a good one. According to the rules of Select Committee, it is required any committe investigation be followed by a report.

There is no published committee report of such an investigation.


Another word, the source from which you got your "ten" "investigations" committed a fraud.

Please don't misunderstand that I think you commited a fraud, it's that source that has commited a fraud, you're just being used by that fraud.

National Security Agency 1981 Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian ship as a result of miscalculation and egregious errors.

This was #9 of "ten" "investigations".


The report did not exonerate Israel, but its authors did note that the deputy director dismissed the Israeli excuse (the Yerushalmie Report) (that Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian ship)as "a nice whitewash."

10)House Armed Services Committee June 1991 Responding to requests from Liberty Veterans Association, Subcommitte on Investigations launched probe that concluded that there was no evidence to support the allegations made by the Association and no reason for further investigation.

This was the #10 of "ten" "investigations".


Except for the fact that U.S. government reports that there has been no such investigation.

Another word, your source for "ten" "investigation" again commited a fraud.

Israel has made amends..........all I am saying is that in war, terrible mistakes get made.

..........and according to two Israeli reports (Yerushalmi and Ron Ram reports), Israeli affirmatively found that no Israeli Military personel did even slightest negligent or improper thing.


Does this sound like Israel is making amends by owning up to slightest mistakes (much less a terrible ones) to you?


You can find out more at http://www.usslibertyinquiry.com/arguments/american/investigations.html


also at http://www.ussliberty.org/thebiglie.htm

In case, the link just above doesn't work, go to http://www.ussliberty.org, and go to the middle of home page and you will find "Big Lie" link.

There you will find e-mail correspondence between Mr.Meadors and Library of Congress personel whether there has been any document that shows Congress held an investigation into USS Liberty.

The Library of Congress personle after an extensive search could not find such documents.

 

[badbob]

Here is the video of the USS Liberty if anybody is interested:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6595846710992512471

badbob

 

[Al Norris]

This thread has persistently drifted into the politics of the US Liberty debacle, despite the few attempts to keep it on track. That is not what the thread starter was about.

So I'm closing this one for being off topic. You want to start it again, let's keep it to the topic. If you want to discuss the US Liberty, then start a new thread, devoted to that topic.