The future part II

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R

Ruger

Moderator
Would it perhaps be better if instead of LEO’s which I haven’t used or UN soldiers, we used the words, “Tyrants helpers” would that offend those folks who don’t like these speeches? How would you like us to refer to corrupt politicians and the law enforcement who follow their orders? It would then exclude anyone who takes the oath, or their citizenship seriously out of the discussion, and just leave in people who believe in following illegal, unconstitutional orders. Just for the info of a few others here, I am in fact testing for a job in federal law enforcement very soon. These statements made by me are not and have never been about folks who follow the constitution. But for those who value their jobs more than the freedom of fellow Americans it has many implications to you.



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Live Free or Die Trying,

Steve Moody
 
Ruger, good luck in law enforcement. we need more people in law enforcement who will respect the Constitutional rights of us all.There should be no reason for the people to fear the man in blue. Let us pray we can return to a nation ruled by constitutional principles. THe future,good or baD , rests with you young guys.
 
Ivan,

thanks for the vote of confidence. It seems like us young guys are being set to bear the burden. That's fine, I'm working as hard as I can between, work and school to bring more of my generation to the front of the class. It's soon going to be our torch to carry completly and we must gain back ground lost in prior battles. Alot of folks don't seem to like my stand, but I for one have grown tired of compromise, it's really not compromise, when we are the only ones to give.


I've taken some flak today for a few of my past posts, seems I infuriated a few people with some of my more flaming posts. It appears I'm a bad egg so to speak, because I made reference to killing folks in a certain scenario. I didn't use the term LEO, so somebody elses butt must be in the frying pan to. But it comes from being sick of being fed lies, and trying to perhaps show the government we won't walk down the street gun in hand to give it the chop saw guy. But as this is Rich's site, I won't post anymore about killing bad guys, since it seems to not be pc in todays climate.

So Ivan if you see things change a little in my posts, it's just cause I'm trying to follow rules for the first time in my life, in regards to my free speech.



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Live Free or Die Trying,

Steve Moody
 
Free speech? Yes...and no. This is Rich's site and his rules and requests. Tone and specificity counts also folks. There are a number of ways in which one can state the same concept. In some of these ways the tone can be highly offensive. In other ways the same ideas can be conveyed in such a way that even opponents do not blink an eye. Run a search on Spartacus. I've said some very radical things here. Early on in such a way that I aroused some heat :) I did not stop conveying the essence of what I was saying-I changed the WAY I was saying it. Guess what, chill'un? The flames stopped. Which way of going about things is more likely to win friends and influence people-to win the hearts and minds? (I know, I know: grab 'em by the nads and their hearts and minds will follow you anywhere) But I like to leave my hands free for other endeavours these days.

With a small amount of forethought, it is possible to convey almost anything and still rest comfortably with the mission statement and regulations in force here.

We have a large and diverse membership here. With a little ingenuity we can nail down almost anything nailable.

BTW, someone said something about handles here. My handle is a source of amusement to me. I have never hesitated to reveal my real name or even my physical address.



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Byron Quick
 
Spartacus,

You've said without much fanfare or flame exactly what I've been asking of some all day. I think everyones tempers flared a little over this. I feel like I took alot of heat for a statement that I felt even some of the moderators said in the same tone and text. I was said to have caused two proven members to leave, you know, I don't buy that, and I won't take the blame for all that. I might indeed have been the straw that broke this camels back, but a whole lot of other straws led to it breaking. I tried to be friendly, institute a debate about what has always been allowed in America. I realize it's Rich's ground, and told him as much, I believe everyone rights stop at my front gate, I travel and enter property on the same assumption. Maybe I was wrong to even share my point of view.

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Live Free or Die Trying,

Steve Moody
 
I'm sorry I missed the original thread.

Rich, as others have said, this is your yard, and your rules. I agree.

I find myself in an interesting position. On the one hand, I feel that certain threads on TFL in the past few months have strained the credibility of certain parties; the simple truth (governments assume increasing amounts of power) is more insidious than NWO martian Elvis clones using obsolescent Comblock equipment infiltrating the US of A through South America...or tunneling from China...or whatever. I have not been shy about expressing the idea that those among us who spread such detritus are the sane, lawful gun-owner's true worst enemy. I have been warned.

So, I definitely agree that certain overly speculative rumors should, at the least, have a reasonable amount of substantiation before broadcasting them to God and the world. This is a time for cool heads and clear thought, and I agree with censoring or deleting such posts. As to the chief other issue...

I love my country and countrymen. I do agree that our verbiage should reflect our respect for all law-abiding occupants of the US, and that we should not have any "How to kill a cop" threads. OTOH, my position- that I will resist certain encroachments to my freedom with any means at my disposal- will not change. If asked how I intend to receive any representative of any government agency sent to impound my weaponry, my answer- however I couch it- will not change. If I asked if I intend to lie down and die, my answer will not change. I will attempt to express these ideas in a manner consistent with owning the high ground.

We hold our beliefs strongly- thank God!- but I hope that we will feel the eyes of the world upon us, and express our passion in coolly calculating verbiage. We must be shining examples of what gun owners should be. We have differing ideas as to what that "best" gun owner will be, so we should each endeavor to be true to our unique vision. This does not mean blinding ourselves to cause and effect, suggestions, or common sense.

Rich, I have treasured my time on TFL since you first invited me here so long ago. I have grown to know and respect many here; I have had the pleasure of meeting a few in person. I have had the privilege of telling some, like Byron, of the site. I believe TFL to be the best site of its kind, and I wish it even more stellar future success. I hope my views you consider to be within allowable tolerances. Any correspondence can be sent to JohnShirley@hotmail.com .


All that is necessary for the triumph of evil, is that good men do nothing.

Respectfully,

John Shirley




[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited September 18, 1999).]
 
Specter writes:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We hold our beliefs strongly- thank God!- but I hope that we will feel the eyes of the world upon us, and express our passion in coolly calculating verbiage. We must be shining examples of what gun owners should be.[/quote]

You have expressed your views coolly and you are a shining example of what gun owners should be. My only regret is that I had not authored your words! :)
Rich
 
Ok, here is some cool, calculating verbage ... got a whole bunch of people into BIG trouble a while back:

"When in the course of Human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another,..."

The author of these words conveyed his meaning in a most beautiful manner, yet got his point across :)

I will admit to having a bit of trouble hiding my frustration with the direction of current events. This is due to my knowledge of the history of our country; knowing that people gave thier very lives so that I (and others) might have liberty, and a number of those others would throw that sacrifice away. No just throw it away, but spit upon it as well, and say by their very actions, that those fallen freedom fighters were wrong.

Well, I for one, will not surrender to being "PC" ... which to me means something other than framing my arguments in a civil and orderly manner ... I will keep faith with those that have given the ultimate, and those that have been willing to give the ultimate, so that our rights oof life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are preserved.

As stated by so many on this thread and on the others, I will not simply hand over my firearm(s) to the government, as long as there is breath in this frame, unless someone can truly convince me that the Founders actually meant the National Guard when they wrote the second amendment. I certainly hope, and of late am actually becoming convinced, that those, charged with the confiscation of firearms, will simply refuse.

I better stop here, before this turns in to a full blown rant ...

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I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! - RKBA!
 
One of my big pet peeves is the Federal Reserve System and it senforcement agency, the IRS.
This is no conspiracy theory Spectre. For 86 years, theFRS has controlled every facet of our economy. This PRIVATE banking oligarchy does it all. It prints the money and charges the government(YOU AND I)interest on that money. It creates this huge, huge debt and sends its collecting agency, the IRS which is also outside any real government regulation, to collect money from the people to pay the interest on the national debt that the FRS created in the first place.Through its central banking system with its horrible usury charges, the FRS controls every loan and mortgage in this nation. We are ,to sum it up, indentured servants to this private banking system. Even Woodrow Wilson, who supported the creation of the FRS, was quoted as saying that our wealth has been taking over. The Banksters give us 2 percnt interest on our money and charge ?? percent for a loan or mortgage. No this is no conspiracy theory . It is conspiracy FACT! In my opinion, the creation of this private banking cartel is one of the biggest reasons for the decline,although slowly, of this nation over the decades. It is no coincidence tha tWWI started one year after the creation of this money lending cartel. It doesnt take a rocket science to figure the FRS out,just common sense and a little research.
 
There's no amendment in the Constitution that protects us from being offended. :)

Personal responsibility is the hallmark of maturity. ;)

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

www.quixtar.com
referal #2005932
 
TR,

I like your idea about those asked to confiscate simply refusing. Is it the power of positive thinking? I just don't know, most of my law enforcement buddies, say their job is not worth peoples freedom. It sort of gives you a warm feling inside. I also think some of the law enforcement community see the passion we have, the intelligence we use to discuss these matters. Passion is a dying thing in this world and it motivates people when they see it.

Here in Texas we are graced with the DPS and they really seem to be on our side. These guys are a class act, always polite, always courtous. I have been stopped before I had a CCL with a loaded pistol in the truck, never an unkind word, when they asked the question,"Any firearms in the vehicle?" I told them where, what kind, and that it was loaded. I was never even asked to hand it over for the duration of the stop. I never received more than a warning and a kind word.

Small town police are more of a problem even for law abiding, ccl holders. If in Texas avoid these towns unless you wish to be hassled: Somerset, Lytle, and Natalia. A friend of mine had a pistol stuck to his head one morning at 3a.m. on his way home from a farm job. The shirt thrown over his Government model had moved some and the grip stuck out. Both his hands where on the wheel and he was in the process of telling the officer there was a gun in the truck when he felt cold metal. Some small towns really hate the ccl laws.

I'm not sure TR where it'll end up if the call goes out to confiscate. I've had military people go both ways when asked, and the same with police in these small towns. Now the DPS I've asked the question to four of them I know, all answered no they would not do it. I've often pondered this very thing. As a knock-off of a Vietnam era anti-war chant,

"What if they demanded confiscation, and nobody came"

Here's to hoping your right TR.




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Live Free or Die Trying,

Steve Moody


"Just once wouldn't it be nice to hear a politician say,"I don't believe this way, but the people do."
 
Ivan,

The Federal Reserve Bank was responsible for WWI? Let's see. A Serb in Sarajevo was so pissed off that he assassinated Archduke Ferdinand of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The empire mobilized for war against Serbia.
The Russian Empire went to war against the Austro-Hungarian Empire and also declared war against their allies the German Reich. The Germans tried a preemptive strike against the French trying to guard their rear and the British Empire came in on the side of the French. All that cause they were pissed at the Federal Reserve?


Or take another common conspiracy theory: AIDS as a man made germ warfare agent. What would be necessary?
First, lay a foundation.
First cases of AIDS reported in 1980 and 1981. Incubation period can be as long as 10 years before symptoms occur. Call it five on the average. So say the first people to die from AIDS were infected in 1975. Let's be extravagantly liberal with the amount of research time involved and say they did it in only six years so the project started in 1969.

So some group of scientists between 1969 and 1975 learned more about the human immune system than we know today after thousands of scientists with billion of dollars in research funds and twenty years of study time. This covert group also learned more about virii than the afore mentioned thousands of scientists with billions of research funds. The covert group learned more about genetic engineering than we have learned thirty years later. Truly amazing group of fellows. The economic rewards for the sheer knowledge required to engineer the Human Immunodeficiency Virus would make Bill Gates look like a beggar. And not one of them has stepped forward to claim it.

On the other hand, something like the Kennedy assassination can be analyzed by experiment. The Warren Commission had a hypothesis. Well, test it. Get a Carcano rifle with the same crappy Tasco scope that Oswald allegedly used. Get the best riflemen in the world. Set up a dummy Dealy plaza. See if you can find one who can duplicate the Warren Commission hypothesis.

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Byron Quick
 
Byron-- The only addressable point in your last post was your last paragraph (Hey! Shooting related! Cool!). ABC news, I think it was, hired a couple of riflemen to try it. They could, and did.

I could do it, theoretically (at a moving inanimate target, NOT a president!). I have made quick follow-up shots with bolt-action rifles off-hand at running deer at similar ranges. Were these rifles likely more accurate than the Carcano/Tasco combo? Probably, off a rest. Off-hand at a moving target, sub 4 MOA is good enough, so long as the rifleman is up to his task.

This is the place to debunk such conspiracy theories, and I'll be happy to be the first to kick the lid right off.

AIDS? To my knowledge we've got ONE, maybe TWO people on this board who're qualified to discuss the viability of that as a manmade weapon, and I'd appreciate it if you'd go ahead and forward to my email DC's response when she blows that little ditty out of the water. I love to watch a master at work. Anyway, it ain't fittin' to discuss it here- it's completely extra-topical, and beyond our scope of expertise.

One thing we don't need is a CONSPIRACY THEORIES forum. If you just can't resist, then at least put the word "conspiracy" in your title, so I can skip it. :)

Regards,

Long Path
 
Long Path,

What was the time frame for the shots? I was under the impression that the best time in a duplication of the assassination at a moving target was somewhat over the time of the Zapruder film. Could easily be wrong. HMMM.
Did you miss my point in the AIDS thingee? I was laying out reasons why it wasn't a conspiracy.

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Byron Quick
 
Spartacus, I should rephrase my comments to say that WWI would not have lasted very long without US money (money created by FRS) flowing to the Allies even before Us was involved in that Bloodbath in April 1917. My comments were to show how the FRS has a complete control on our economy and I mean complete control. Let me quote Congressman Louis T. Mcfadden, Chairman of the HOuse Banking and Currency Commitee. He addressed the HOUse on June 10,1932. Here is what he said: "We have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the WORLD HAS EVER KNOWN(MY Italics)I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. Some think the Federal Reserve Banks are US government institutions. They are not government institutions. They are private credit monopolies:domestic swindlers,rich and predatory money lenders which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign customers. The Federal Reserve Board HAS USURPED THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES BY THE ARROGANT CREDIT MONOPOLY WHICH OPERATES THE FEDERAL RESERVE BOARD."(Italics again mine) Congressman McFadden knew the score and was a brave man to speak out against these predatory private bankers whom in 20 years had already sucked a lot of the nations wealth into themselves. Well, its 1999 and they cant suck up much more because it(our wealth) is nearly gone.Congressman Wright Patman, Chairman, House Banking and Currency Commitee said in 1975 that "we have two governments....We have the duly constituted Government..... Then we have an independent,uncontrolled and uncoordinated governmetn in the Federal Reserve Syastem,OPERATING THE MONEY POWERS WHICH ARE RESERVED TO CONGRESS BY THE CONSTITUTION"(ITALICS MINE)Like I said earlier on this thread, all this isnt dreamwork or mad talk. I wish it were. But the Fed Reserve System is truly a slave system and all us citizens are indentured to it and its collecting agency the I.R. S. "If the American people understood our banking and mometary system,there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning"(Henry Ford) I urge people to think about this the next time they pay their mortgages,pay their loans or pay the IRS.And the money doesnt even really go to Uncle Scam at all. Straight to pay on the interest of the huge debt created by the private bankers with US as the collateral. Unc. Scam just allowed it to happen 86 unfortunate years ago. One must be blunt when speaking of such subversions to our nation. and ,yes, we must go back in history to see what our own politicians had to say about the FRS;at least the few honest ones.
 
UH..., excuse me.
I think I missed a turn somewhere back there. What started out as a thread on minding our manners and following the rules has suddenly turned into conspiracy theories about the Federal Reserve and AIDS.
Isn't this exactly the sort of thing we were trying to avoid? I've seen this happen far too often. A thread starts out on one subject and suddenly shifts gears into something else totally unrelated to the original.
Don't misunderstand me, if you wish to discuss these things, by all means do so. However please start a new thread for it. I would be happy to contribute my opinions as I have strong feelings on both subjects.
However, THIS thread wasn't started for that purpose and I think we should stay on topic.
Consider this, You are having a conversation with someone and somebody else suddenly butts in completely changing the subject. Would you not think that person was rude?
This is not meant to be a flame and please don't take it as such. It is merely an illustration of the type of thing that turns people away. We, and I include myself since I'm as guilty as any, should stay with the topic at hand and not branch out into unrelated fields.
Sparticus is correct that tone and verbiage have a great effect on written words. It is difficult to express emotion with written words. Sometimes what we write is completely different from what others read it as. Herein lies the difficulty. The phase "I will resist any government attempt to take my guns" takes on a whole new meaning when stated as "I'll kill any GD gubbmit SOB who trys to get my guns!"
There is also a fine line between spirited discussion and argument. The first I enjoy, the later I want no part of.
I believe Rich's intent was not to censor our posts, but merely to keep things civil and factual. Calm, clear and intellegent discussion is a TFL trademark. Let's do our best to keep it that way.
JMHO.
 
Grayfox,



Amen brother!!



Let's stick to the subject.



'nuff said.



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RKBA!

"A right is not what someone gives you; it's what no one can take from you." - Ramsay Clark

"Rights are liable to be perverted to wrongs when we are incapable of rightly exercising them." - Sarah Josepha Hale
 
Sparticus:

Oops! My fault-- no, you didn't put forth such a theory, and I do apologize. Happens when we skim, and I look pretty damned stupid, I'd have to agree. :o However, my actual point (that we of TFL are all but a few incapable of putting forth reasoned arguements with regard to this, without a full working knowledge of biochemistry and virology) still stands. This would be totally extra-topical, as is so much of what we've been trying to trim.


Ivan-- The period of 1.6 seconds comes to mind as being the fastest period between two shots. I'd have to check. At any rate, Greyfox is 110% correct; this one calls for a new thread, if we've got any new info. Surely this thread would be very much in keeping with TFL's traditions, I.E. debunking myths speculated on by non-firearms experts.

To all-- apologies for rash statement, and new thread tangental to earlier remarks now being created.

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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?

Matt




[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited September 20, 1999).]
 
1) As Rich and the administrators have stated, we are trying to calm
down the rhetoric on TFL.
- It is an attempt NOT to resemble wild-eyed terrorists in the eyes of the
uncommitted “lurker” on TFL.
- It is an attempt to resolve our political problems through political
channels rather than a violent revolution which would devastate our
families and our country.
- It is an attempt to unify our efforts rather than fragment them.

2) This is NOT a matter of “political correctness.” And, by the way,
“political correctness” and “civil and orderly” are NOT synonymous.
- Many civil, orderly people are NOT politically correct! They are fighting
the system more effectively than the loudmouth advocates of violence
and mayhem. How many of you can match Rich’s efforts? (I can’t.)
- Many politically correct people and organizations are not civil and
orderly. HCI and the Clinton administration come to mind.
- Bottom line: Those who wish to be uncivil and disorderly, take it
somewhere else. TFL is not the BBS for that type of expression.

3) Being civil is NOT a sign of weakness or lack of resolve.
- It is NOT a sign of weakness to work “within the system” when it is still
feasible and advantageous to do so. Our forefathers tried to do so for a
long (perhaps TOO long) period of time. TFL feels it is still appropriate to
work within the system. If you feel otherwise, you’re on the wrong BBS.
- As to any implication to the contrary, I would comment that it takes
more self-discipline to control our rhetoric than to engage in empty and
offensive threats of violence and revolution.

4) As to keeping the faith with our forefathers:
- They apparently understood that success in any major venture requires
cooperation. Rather than weakness or political correctness, true
cooperation (within the scope of an overall goal such as our RKBA)
reflects the realization that we must work together or, as individuals, our
efforts are minimized rather than maximized. Our forefathers had many
disagreements, but they cooperated to achieve their goal. We should do
no less if we truly revere their efforts and if we truly wish to succeed.
- Personally, I resent the implication that if I do not “scream and shout
and jump about” and threaten to shoot those who offend MY version of
political correctness and Americanism that I am less than a patriotic
American. You misjudge and belittle many years of struggle against
superior odds to regain our RKBA. I strongly suggest you keep such
asinine thoughts to yourself.

5) Again, personally, I believe we (as gun owners) have permitted -
even facilitated - infringements on the Second Amendment because we
are too distracted from our goal of RKBA.
- We are so busy trying to be “better” than each other that our RKBA
goal becomes secondary to our machismo, our posturing, and our
rhetoric.
- We argue so much about history and other political events and issues
(past and present) that our RKBA effort becomes fragmented, diluted,
secondary, and ineffective.
- Too many of us are willing to sacrifice Second Amendment guarantees
which do not affect OUR little area of interest. Arguments abound
between and among skeet or trap shooters, hunters, reloaders, shooters
of the dastardly “black rifles”, full auto v. semi-auto, hunters v. pistol
enthusiasts, etc. etc.
- We state RKBA is the most important thing in our lives! We threaten
to kill our friends and relatives if they disgrace us. We call fellow
members weak and irresolute if they do not engage in the “kill ‘em all
and let God sort ‘em out” rhetoric. And we drive away and alienate
potential supporters. And we weaken our efforts.
- Quite simply, we are not successful because we are too busy
masturbating our egos to work together effectively and preserve our
Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

6) To those who tried to keep this thread on topic - I thank you. To
those who divide and separate us, join us in our movement to restore the
Constitution - complete with its Bill of Rights - or leave us.
 
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