The Flag...And Why TFL Exists

Trevor,

Wow! Your words are strong and very enlightening.

You speak of, “...those people who use love of country as a way to conceal their
treasonous misdeeds...” and note that many government officials, “...probably
consider themselves loyal patriots as well as anyone who follows this board.” Well
said!

How then, may we identify the patriotic, the misled, and the treasonous? Let them
wave the flag, propose tyranny “for the children”, make flowery speeches. It is by
their actions that we shall know them.

We must measure our leaders and their actions against the historical intent of the
Constitution of the United States. Those who pervert the intent of that treasured
document will be revealed for all to see when measured against this most noble of
American yardsticks.

We may well disagree about various government edicts, but the Second
Amendment is clear in its verbiage and non-negotiable in its intent. It is copiously
supported by contemporaneously recorded dialogues. We, the people, ARE
the militia. We must have in our hands the implements to defeat any tyrant -
domestic or foreign, one or many.

Millions of people, many of them our countrymen, have suffered and died to obtain
and secure the rights simply handed to this generation of Americans. We must
secure the intent of this Keystone Amendment or lose the Natural Rights secured
by all the rest. If we fail, the winners may write history as they please. Learned
people through eternity will mark us with shame as the generation that let this
“noble experiment” wither, die, and slip through our fingers.

On other threads it has been rightly discovered that there is no country on this
planet that has the Rights secured for us by our forefathers and fought for by the
generations thereafter. Our options are few and not completely in our hands.

Our duty is clear. Simply stated, WE must be the winner. It is for the tyrants to
determine whether we can win peaceably. The longer we wait, in the name of
peace, the more likely peaceful means will become less than adequate. We must
win soon. If not now, when? If not us, who?
 
Do you realize that there was a time not long ago when there was little or no desecration or disrespect of the flag?
This was not from fear but from a deeply held conviction that this flag represented the greatest country in the world and that we personally were much better living in its shadow than in any other country and the flag was at the same time a symbol of our heritage and our future.

Now what do you think changed all that?

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
two more cents. I agree with those that feel the flag represents the hopes and goals of freedom seeking people. People do have the right to defile it I suppose if they want to and at the same time I have a right to express MY personal opinion about it. I choose to view it more personally. You can view it in a sterile context and be correct that it is a symbol and maybe nothing more. People, however, do not live and die in sterile surroundings and passion is what drives us to live life and to seek freedom in the first place. The flag is for me a symbol of hope which is of course in complete opposition to what the government is.
 
I knew my post might stir up a few feelings.

Dennis, you know that no one is seriously suggesting burning your own personal flag; such an action would rightly be treated in the same way as someone trying to burn your car, or end table.

Ed: When did "all that" change? I suspect that perhaps it was when people realized that despite our good fortune to live in the United States, there was still vast room for improvement.

I am often surprised at the strong tie that people feel to the flag. Perhaps it's leftover sentiment from long-ago battlefields. I don't know. To those of you in this thread who feel such a tie, what is the draw, upon further examination? How do you come to equate the flag with individual struggle or the ideals of our nation?

Dennis also indicated very movingly what the flag means to him. Very well done, Dennis, but I don't see any direct correlation between the simple representation of the original colonies and the current states in the Union, and the brave, praiseworthy individuals to which you refer. I require no flag to honor such people.

Of course, I respect everyone else's right to honor the flag, but it will never be important to me. I wince as I say this, knowing that it will just make some of you hate me. But oh well.
 
Hey, Mort!

Try this point of view: Symbols are a form of shorthand, expressing lengthy messages in only a few words or pictures. I believe my view of the flag as representative of the fundamental precepts of this nation is an accurate one.

Consider how desecration of a flag affects one who believes this. It doesn't matter whether _you_ believe this, or not. Some folks take their symbols "religiously", as Salmon Rushdie discovered...

Your "battlefield" comment refers to only a tiny part of the larger picture of the symbolism of a flag.

It is my own opinion that those of the '60s/'70s who saw the flag as representative only of a misuse of power were incorrect in that viewpoint. Obviously any symbol can be misused, but the misuse does not obviate the validity of the symbol.

John/az2: Gold fringe & tassels have to do with occasions such as parades, and interior use in formal settings. Zilch to do with "corporate America" and zilch to do with any of the Montana Freemen allegations. I'm remiss in not doing more looking, but there is literature speaking to fringes, tassels, etiquette, etc...

Best regards to all...Art
 
Mort..

I doubt if anyone will hate you. You haven't condemned the ideals that the flag represents...thus its a difference of perspective: the cup being half empty or half full.
Because of the "co-option" and perversion/corruption of ideals by certain parties and organizations you see the cup as half empty. Some of us (aware of the above) don't allow it to prejudice the symbol of the ideals....cup is half full.

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
Aw, heck, Mort,
“Ain’t nobody gonna hate you for your views as you state them! We’re only
arguin’ about what kinda saddle to put on the same horse!” :)

The main idea is to secure our Rights in accordance with the Constitution. As far
as “MY flag” goes, I did not mean just the one in my front yard, I meant Old Glory
- The American flag! It isn’t a Democrat flag or a Republican flag or whatever.
It’s the American flag.

I can leave room for folks not connecting my ideals to the symbol. I really can!
I can NOT leave room for those who attack the flag physically (rather than
verbally).

Again, to me the flag represents what we could be, what we should be - not what
we have been, are, or will be.

As far as symbols go, it would be similar to going into a cathedral and urinating on
a statue of the Virgin Mary. “Hey, it’s only a statue! A piece of clay!” ... Aha!
But what it represents is too great, too important, indeed too sacred to permit
what we all would consider a sacrilege.

I make that same kind of connection to our flag. “What it represents” is the
Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, our Forefathers and their efforts to
create a government subservient to “The People” rather than vice versa. That was
pretty heady stuff in those days! They truly were radicals!

Reasonable people obviously have different feelings about the flag. What
foreigners think of the American flag is of minor consequence compared to what
Americans think of it. And many (“most” ?) of my generation, born before WWII,
are of a time when the flag meant so much that we are a pushover for the folks
who want to hit our hot buttons by reviling the flag.

Whether we believe in that “ole piece of cloth” or not must not become a
distraction to our real concern. We must control our government or it will control
us. The Second Amendment truly is the Keystone Amendment. If #2 falls, the
others will collapse.

“Just git yer own saddle, I’ll git mine. Let’s all ride in the same direction here.
OK?”

The “movement” is big enough for variations on the theme. :)
 
Mort; My respect for the flag comes from my respect for my heritage and my personal involvement in defending what that flag stands for as well as defending the flag itself.
With that being said,let me assure you that there are many many things in this country that I do not like but I will not leave so long as there is still a way to change it.
Are you interested in changing it or do you just want to disrespect its institutions and my heritage?
I am like DC I do not hate you I just consider you to be less of an American because you have no pride in the symbol of the country which allows you the freedom express your views.
Maybe it's a generation thing!

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
Art-
I think the flag burning of the 60's and 70's are understandable in context, though not excusable. The context: young men being sent into harms way in an unpopular, unwinable and (perhaps) inappropriate war.

Those who questioned the policy were not given answers (unless you consider the Domino Theory an answer). Instead, the flag was waved in their face and they were declared "unpatriotic". Thus the flag burnings, to me, represented a generation telling those in power...we might die for a cause but not for a symbol misused.

Ed-
I respect your opinion. However, I must disagree. Mort has shown no less dedication to the ideals of America than any of us. He simply doesn't feel the same way about one of it's symbols as the rest of us. While I hardly agree with him, I do respect his right to feel that way.

Rich
 
Rich; Specifically,what are you disagreeing with? I respect Mort's right to feel any way that he wants to. Do you grant me the same right or did I misintrepert your post?
 
To clarify: I don't burn any flags myself. I think there are more effective means of protest, like actually doing something. Ed, I don't think it's a generational issue, there are lots of people my age who think the flag is a great thing worth holding onto and respecting. And I think flags are good too; they provide us with a national identity (which is good, for now).

And, of course, I am as concerned and involved with the struggle to hold our nation to its own Constitution. Now, if someone were to desecrate the Constitution by their deeds (it happens regularly), I lose all objectivity.
 
Mort; I would like to convert you.
You do not want anyone to desecrate the Constitution and we agree.I do dot want anybody to desecrate the actual document either.
We both respect the Constitution.I respect the document itself as well as the flag that represents the heritage of the nation that began with that great experiment.You see the flag as a symbol.So do I.And as the symbol that it is,it has intrinsic value of much more than a piece of cloth.

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
Ed-
Sorry, if I didn't explain properly. What I meant was that I don't agree with your statement to Mort:
"I just consider you to be less of an American because you have no pride in the symbol of the country which allows you the freedom express your views." [emphasis added]

Among other reasons, you assume that Mort also feels that the Flag is the symbol of America. I saw nothing in his posts to indicate this or to have me believe he is "less" American than you or I. As you said, it may be a generational issue.

And, yes, of course I respect your right to hold your opinion.
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited March 12, 1999).]
 
I have been following this thread since it's beginning and am usually one to not engage in political, religious or ideology discussions. This is mainly due to the fact my views are normally different than the prevailing view of the group. But not now. This time I feel compelled to share my perspective on OUR flag.

On an intellectual level, it is a symbol. We can put our own relevence to the symbol. If you feel it represents freedom, sacrifice of previous generations or the ideas and goals put forth by the Bill of Rights, we agree. If it means the symbol of an imperialistic, oppressive, racist, coporate driven and corrupt bueracracy (sp?), We disagree. But, my symbol allows you to voice this opinion. And I will respect your freedom to do so.

On an emotional level, I will relate this one anecdote. When I was flight crew on CH-53 helicopters, our squadron lost one aircraft during a routine training operation. All crewmembers were killed. Subsequently we had a memorial service prior to the bodies being shipped home. I will never forget the 4 U.S. Flag draped coffins sitting in our hanger. We weren't at war, but these men gave thier lives for what THE FLAG symbolizes.

This post has rambled somewhat but I do wish to express one other thing. Lately I've seen a few posts that seem to be fairly radical in thier content as far as the "government".By that I mean, it seems there is an underlying feeling in some members that we have something to fear in our government. And this fear goes beyond the usual RKBA erosion (which I do agree is occuring). I'm talking about the Y2K martial law stuff, the U.N. conspiracy junk, the Government thugs kicking your door in and killing your dog etc...No, I don't believe this is about to happen.

This kind of crap gives gun owners the bad stereotypes in the media and in the non gun oriented public's mind. We need to be aware that there are quite a few people who surf this sight and read what is posted here. We have an up hill battle ahead of us as it is, this crap is just going to make it more difficult.

I'm done now.




------------------
Dan

Check me out at:
www.mindspring.com/~susdan/interest.htm
www.mindspring.com/~susdan/GlocksnGoodies.htm
 
Ed:
Whoa, now, less of an American? I didn't even see that when I first replied. Think you, Mr. Lucibella, for pointing this out. Less of an American, Ed? Why, I'm almost perturbed. I am flattered that you consider me worthy of "conversion", but I hardly think we're on opposite sides where important issues are concerned.

I think the best symbol for America is America itself: I have always felt that symbolism is for those who would rather not wrap their mind around an entire idea. Of course that's not the case with you guys, you are some of the most intelligent, rational people I know. But I still find a sort of "wall" in your thinking. Frequent references are made to the valorous deeds of individuals in defense of what the flag represents. The deeds of these men are valid and laudable, but how this translates directly to the flag is, well, beyond my grasp at the moment. Enlighten me.

Furthermore, it is important to remember that battle and valor in and of themselves are not honorable or validating; the Nazis fought hard and bravely, but what they defended was not worth honoring. Several times in American history, this has also been the case. I say, honor brave men and women, but question the government that forces them into bravery; question also unthinking sentiment. There is a reason that "flag-waving" is often considered a derogatory term. There are those (none present here, I believe) that would rather wave a flag that think about what their country is doing and whether it is bad or good.
 
Dan; There IS something to fear from the government.All of the things you mentioned HAVE HAPPENED!This is not a fear conspiracy. These are abuses of the law by those we trust AND PAY to enforce it.
Back to the topic.A military funeral does give a whole new dimension to the flag,doesnt it?

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
Ed,

You are correct, these things have happened.
Let me clarify my position. These gross violations and miscarriages of justice are few and far between, in fact they are so rare that when it does occur they become infamous.

The conspiracy junk I refer to, and the people who truly fear the govt would have you believe that this occurs daily. If it did, there would be almost no noteriety in these anomolous events.

The proliferation of this stuff on boards like TFL is damaging to us in the eyes of mainstream USA. I feel it is best left off of TFL.

However, I do agree with you that these are abuses by those we pay and have trust in. Because this does occur, we do need to remain vigilant. Fearful, no.

Just my opinion. I think we all need a group hug. :)


------------------
Dan

Check me out at:
www.mindspring.com/~susdan/interest.htm
www.mindspring.com/~susdan/GlocksnGoodies.htm
 
There are a number of things that I have aspired to in my life. Thank God I have never wanted to be politically correct.
That amounts to mind control.
I think a forum should be open with very few subjects off limits as long as the participents act as mature adults.
To have the topics determined by fear of offending someone makes no sense because someone will be offended by anything and everything.

Judge not lest you yourself be judged.
By their fruits shall you know them.
Im not a judge.Im a fruit inspector

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
Dan: I don't do group hugs, but I see, sort of, your point; I guess we've all made it clear where we stand.
 
Ok, I've been gone a few days and I'm getting into this late. Brace yourself, here it comes.
I'm in total agreement with Dennis. If you burn, spit on or desecrate my flag in any way shape or form, you're begging for a serious ass whoopin'. The flag is a symbol of everything right about this country, not what is wrong. Its about freedom, honor and ideals. Its about the blood of good men shed in the cause of freedom. While the beaucrats in Washington may have forgotten this, I haven't!
As a Boy Scout leader, I've taken part in many flag ceramonies from the Pledge of Alligence to the proper retirement of worn and damaged flags. I've seen grown men choke up and a tear come to their eyes as a retired flag is gently placed in the fire. And I'm damned proud to say I am one of them.
For the last ten years I've worked as a volunteer staff member for the Memorial Day Ceramony at the Memphis National Cemetary. After paying tribute to the veterans buried there, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, members of other organizations and anybody who walks in the gate place an American Flag on each and every grave. We get enough people each year to place a flag on all 38,000 graves in 30 to 45 minutes. That's one hell of alot of people who believe in a symbol and says alot about what that symbol means.
It ain't about government, Its about the principals of freedom.


BTW: I have similar feelings for klan klowns,nutzies and scum heads who defile the "Stars and Bars" for their own twisted purposes. That too is a part of my heritage that I take pride in.


[This message has been edited by Grayfox (edited March 14, 1999).]
 
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