The Flag...And Why TFL Exists

R

Rich Lucibella

Staff
Taken from Ty Miller's post to the API List:

The Flag

Ladies and gentlemen. I give you the flag
That flew over Valley Forge
Was torn in two by the gray and the blue
And bled through two world wars.

I give you the flag that burned in the street
In protest, in anger and shame,
The very same flag that covered the men
Who died defending her name.

We now stand together, Americans all.
Either by choice or by birth
To honor the flag that's flown on the moon
And changed the face of the earth.

History will show this flag stood a friend
To the hungry, the homeless and lost
That mixture of men as common clay
Valued one thing beyond cost.

And they've signed it in blood from Bunker Hill
To Saigon and Toko Ri.
I give you the flag that says to the world
Each man has a right to be free.

Baxter Black
 
Yes, very moving, and I don't want to be antagonistic, but.
I'm starting to feel less and less allegiance to the flag. I've never had a problem about flag desecration of any kind. Since it's just a symbol of the government I distrust, I don't see why I should get weepy about it. Does anyone here think differently?
 
Yes Mort I do.

It's a symbol OF the freedom enjoyed by the people that make up this great country and who way too often tend to take it for granted. It's a symbol of freedom TO the teeming masses of people dying in poverty and oppression elsewhere on this planet, yearning more than anything else for themselves or their children to someday reach our shores.

I don't see it as a symbol of our Government at all. In fact, each branch, organization and agency of our Government has its own unique heraldic emblem, and by law the Flag of the We the People must be displayed in a position of precedence over each.

[This message has been edited by Mykl (edited March 11, 1999).]
 
You may have noticed no flag images at my site. The US flag stands for....something for everyone, I am sure VCs had an opinion of it, as do Americans, as do tiny and diverse social groups all over the world.

I view the US flag the same way I view any national flag...a warning sign of armed and belligerent beaurocracy at work.

I give you the flag that says to the world
Each man has a right to be free.

I cannot agree with this...freedom is the same kind of right as happiness...you do not have an enforceable right to happiness, only to pursuit of it. Jews in Germany did not have a right to freedom any more than Jews in Israel did...those who fought for it would have freedom as long as they kept fighting. I just wish fellow Americans could see the parallel.

You have a right to pursuit of freedom...if you cease to pursue it, you remain a slave or a domestic animal...if you keep pursuing freedom, you will either be free or dead. The odds of being free rather than dead improve the earlier you start...both because of fewer shackles on your body and fewer fetters on your mind, for slave mentality is pervasive and subtle and can trip you up in your fight...just how many would-be free people had failed by either never thinking of possibilities or by emulating their former masters. Animal Farm, anyone?

Back to the flag...look at any political site or publication...red-white-blue all over the place...but freedom? To me, freedom is shown in a picture of a family, an individual, a sentient being, opressing no one and opressed by none. Some level of interference from others is unavoidable, but if the other people do more damage to you and have more control over you than common pests like mice or mosquitos, it is time to think about it.

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Cornered "but cheery" Rat
http://ddb.com/RKBA




[This message has been edited by cornered rat (edited March 11, 1999).]
 
This is from one of my books - Choices.


Symbolism

A flag is burned upon it's staff -
While some are angry I just laugh,
Knowing how little it means.

Roses blooming in your room,
So beautiful today -
Within a week they'll wither,
Slowly fade away -
It's not sad if you consider
What I have to say -

To keep a symbol intact some take great pain,
But if the symbol is true then the substance remains.
 
Live and learn. :)
I had no idea people look on the symbol of the flag *so* differently, as I agree completely with Mykl. In these times, I would have expected that the Flag would remind each of us of the finer principles and moments in our nation's history....a symbol of hope, if you will.

My error in taking others' opinions for granted.
Rich


[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited March 11, 1999).]
 
Frankly, I think the "Don't Tread On Me" flag has a lot more relevance, especially now, than the Stars-n-Bars.

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Bullets and primers and hot brass a-flying;
Goblins in my house all screaming and crying;
Nineteen-elevens and scope-mounting rings;
These are a few of my favorite things...
 
Rich, you did not err.

All,
Okay, boys and girls! I tried to stay out of this, but y’all have gone “One Bridge
Too Far”.

MY flag does not represent our rapidly-sliding-into-Socialism bureaucracy. It does
not represent the government personnel who are supposed to represent our best
interests but who serve only their careers. I hate them with the same fervor I hate
the drug-dealing cop, the pedophile minister, and the hypocrites in academia, in
government, and in every position of authority, who say we must think as they
think, act as they would have us act, and be totally subservient to their philosophy
and rules.

MY flag does NOT represent these bastards. Not at any level. Not in any way.

MY flag represents what our people and our people-serving government
SHOULD be - not what we have been, are now, or may become.

MY flag represents what our heroes were really fighting for. Freedom! Liberty!
The securing of our God-given Rights to HAVE (not merely “pursue”) safety,
progress, and success for ourselves and our loved ones - the Rights to Life,
Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness which our Constitution and our Government
are SUPPOSED to ensure and safeguard for us. Among other Rights that MY
flag stands for, is the Right you have to VERBALLY debase and disgrace the “mere symbol” I
hold so dear.

MY flag represents my father who, with only an eighth-grade education, worked
his body to death to provide for his family. MY flag represents my mother, who
did her best to raise her children with integrity, honesty, and fairness. MY flag
represents little Vickie at our local grocery store whose husband was killed in a car
wreck and she must work all day while her child is in school and many nights as
well to support herself and her child and stay off the dole. MY flag represents the
87 year old retired Army Major who, as an Army nurse, flew “The Hump”
forty-some times bringing wounded and dying American soldiers from enemy
territory to safety. MY flag represents the heroes described elsewhere on The
Firing Line as well as all the common people who try every day to secure the
blessings of our land for their families.

MY flag represents what is fair, just, strong, kind, benevolent, and all the other
attributes of personal responsibility and integrity. That our self-serving, lying,
hypocritical representatives and others have tried to sully MY flag infuriates me as
it should infuriate you.

It is NOT the “symbol” of the flag, that we should be fighting to protect! It is the
Rights we know are the cornerstone to a civilized society, personal responsibility,
justice, integrity, kindness, charity, and all the other attributes which should be
shared by intelligent, caring people.

If we would but correct our ways, MY flag would represent the attributes you
would be proud to acknowledge. It is WE who have transgressed - not MY flag.

If you, or anyone else, tries to PHYSICALLY damage, destroy, drag down or any manner
disgrace MY flag, you had better hope I am armed. For this will give you time to flee. I will go to my car, secure
my gun and return unarmed to inflict more pain, physical damage and general
mayhem on the defilers of MY flag than you ever would expect from a fat, old,
gray-haired patriot.

I’m no writer, as this poor epistle proves, but by the Grace of whatever I hold
dear, I am an American. If you are not proud of MY flag, then correct the wrongs
others have done to her. But don’t you EVER touch MY flag with disrespect.
Not ever.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited March 11, 1999).]
 
Well, I'm not going to allow any gov't co-opt what it has meant to me and my family.

It was a symbol of promise, prosperity and freedom to my immigrant Sicilian and Calabrese grandparents.
It was the symbol of freedom, pride, appreciation and potential success to my 17 yr old WWII Marine father.
Its the symbol of promise, tradition and pride to me and what I am raising my infant son to believe in.

Just because it has been co-opted by a particular political administration(s) doesn't negate what it really represents.
**********
You posted while I was writing...Once again Dennis, eloquent, heartfelt and true!

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"



[This message has been edited by DC (edited March 11, 1999).]
 
I am struggling not to cry. Anyone who reads what I write has found in short order that I brink no attacks on my freedom, or even the freedom of nonviolent groups that I disagree with.

Our country, though still great, is in a downward spiral of abuse by our government. I support few politicians. The flag, on the other hand, is a symbol of what is best of our heritage- freedom won the hard way, with the blood of those who believed, united for the common good. To disrespect the flag is to demean the thing I value most, the right of the individual to make positive change in the world.

I will not smite you if you burn the flag, though I will assurredly call the police if the flag is my property. I will not descend upon you with blood in my eye and weapons in hand...but, please, don't think you can burn this flag that stands for the best ideals and the most successful body of political thought in the last millenium, and stand beside me as comrade. To those who spit upon this flag, please reconsider. The ideals this nation was founded upon are still valid. Let's work to preserve them.
 
Yes! Many thanks, Dennis! And, Right On! to Rich and Mykl.

The flag has little to do with who's President or in Congress and little or nothing to do with their actions, except as they bring honor or shame to it. The flag is the symbol of the fundamental concepts and principles of this nation, typified by the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and a way of thinking that led to the Bill of Rights--even more important than the Bill of Rights, itself.

The flag is NOT a symbol of the U.S. government as a government. It is the symbol of a set of ideas and ideals.

For me, it's real damned simple: Spit on the Stars and Stripes, and you're spitting on such ideas as "liberty and justice for all", among others.

I don't tell folks what to think, and I rarely tell folks what to do, but I can give some sound advice about what not to do around some of us old farts out here in politically-incorrect land: Don't spit.

Best regards, Art
 
Perhaps I should clarify my earlier post. I respect the flag, and disrespect those who would burn/spit/walk on it. However, it is a symbol - that's all. Nobody should get too upset by the destruction or desecration of a symbol. When they start destroying the substance, that's when I get mad - and boy, am I mad!
 
Great sentiments all around on this one. I guess I'e run the full spectrum of emotions on this one, because as a kid with a war-hero father, I was intensely proud and patriotic. In college in the late sixties, I was one of those longhairedhippiefreakcommieratbastardpinkoniggerloverfaggots peace protestors, and I wasn't too proud of the flag (as a symbol of Amerikan power) at that time.

FWIW, I enlisted in the summer of '70, wasn't too happy about it, but it was still my country, dammit, and I wasn't about to bolt or shirk my duty. Govrnment sucks, God bless the soldiers.

Back in the world, I found a life, mellowed out, and got back on amore even keel. As symbol of the American people and American ideas, though, I will always honor and love the flag, but I'm very wary of those who wrap themselves in it, as Dr Johnson said, 'patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel'.

The flag means a lot of things to me, I'm not waxing as eloquent as Dennis, but I had an uncle who spent 444 days as a guest of the Iranian gov't, a nephew who spent Chiristmas of '90 in Bagdad (he joined the Marines upon his return),and they both had a lot to say about what the flag meant to them, more than I can relay here.

It's a hell of a dicotomy, actually, because as I was trying to organize my thoughts to write this, I kept comming back to that poem by the Marine chaplin about the guy in the coffin under the flag who died so that others might have the right to burn it.

Sometimes it's very simple, sometimes it aint. M2
 
Morgan,
Then we agree completely on the important part! We just have a difference of opinion about whether or not the flag represents the substance. What a "symbol" represents we can discuss (and maybe I can learn a little tolerance for) once we have again secured the Natural Rights our Constitution secured for us, and "they" are taking from us.

My problem is that the flag, to me, *represents* those "Natural Rights". I guess I should realize that we each "connect" ideas differently.

Still, :) , I like Art's concept. It's a courtesy we should extend - "Don't spit" on other people's symbols and expect them to revere you for it. <chuckles heard here.> Ozzie Osburn nearly was mobbed when (just to be "controversial") he peed on the Alamo.

(((Now. Where are those danged "chill pills"? Aahhh. Shiner Bock!)))
 
I believe it was Samuel Clemens who originated the quote "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." I may be mistaken.

Mere symbols? There is no such thing as a 'mere' symbol. Symbols, and the ideals they represent, inspire humans to transcend their frailness, their fear, their weakness. The American flag is no 'mere' symbol of the US government. Nor is it merely a symbol of the American people. It is a symbol of liberty, equality before the law, government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

I, too, have disagreed with the US government on many issues. I still do. I probably always will. I have associated with others who did so. I have always given fair warning to these folks: If you wish to desecrate that flag...it is your right but it is prudent not to do so in my presence.

Cornered Rat, certainly others have a different view of the American flag. The Viet Cong during the Vietnam War? Certainly.
Uneducated or ill educated peasants for the most part with neither a cultural nor legal tradition of freedom of any type. Go talk with some of the thousands of former Viet Cong now living in the United States what their present opinion is.

The day might come when I stand armed against my government and my fellow citizens who support it. I pray not. I am working to prevent that black day from ever arriving. But the day will never come when I desecrate that flag by word or deed.
 
The line "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scroundrel" is originally attributed to Samuel Johnson (18th century English writer and critic) in the biography about him by James Boswell. When Boswell quotes the line, he explains carefully that Dr. Johnson is not attacking all patriots but those people who use love of country as a way to conceal their treasonous misdeeds. I think it is still good advice today because our friends at ATF or the White House probably consider themsevles loyal patriots as well as anyone who follows this board. Remember though, the winners get to write history and decide who were the real patriots.
 
A question for you who are in the know:

What does the gold fringe around the flag mean? I have been told that it represents corporate america.

And the tassels on the pole above the flag? I can't think of many times I have seen them.

What other adornments are there and what are there meanings?

Thanks!

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."
 
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