The firearms of WW2
- Thread starter C7AR15
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while I don't have any great love of the M1 carbine for what it is, I have a deep respect for what it was able to accomplish, and the US was very fortunate that we were able to produce and field the carbine when we did, and the way we did.
One of the many things that astonished the Germans when they began meeting serious numbers of M1 Carbines was not just what it was, but particularly that there were so many different makers, producing them in large numbers.
This was something the Germans simply could not do.
One of the many things generally forgotten today, after generations of the US being a superpower and world leader is that back then, we weren't and weren't thought of as such by other nations.
The tremendous industrial might and production capability we created and mobilized during WWII was virtually unknown, or disbelieved by most of the rest of the world, until we proved it.
Some people knew, even some of the military leaders of nations who became our enemies, but they weren't listened to by those in charge.
Yamamoto spent time in the US before the war, and knew our potential, which is why he advised against war with the US. His warnings were not heeded.
There is a story (can't verify if its true or not) where supposedly Goering dismissed the threat of war with the US saying "all the Americans can make are refrigerators and razor blades"... according to the story, Galland then asked if he could get some of those razor blades....(which didn't earn him any points with his boss, Goering...)
Small arms on their own don't win wars, there is a lot more involved in that, but if you look at what we fielded in WW II, and were to point to any one person who did more than anyone else to create the successful arms we used, I'd vote for JM Browning.
Our main pistol was a Browning design, and our machine guns .30 and .50 were Brownings. And the BAR was Browning. Our rifles weren't but I think mostly because Browning died several years before the Army went looking for something better than the 1903 Springfield bolt action.
As an intellectual exercise, I think its interesting to imagine what Browning might have come up with, had he lived and kept designing for another decade....
One of the many things that astonished the Germans when they began meeting serious numbers of M1 Carbines was not just what it was, but particularly that there were so many different makers, producing them in large numbers.
This was something the Germans simply could not do.
One of the many things generally forgotten today, after generations of the US being a superpower and world leader is that back then, we weren't and weren't thought of as such by other nations.
The tremendous industrial might and production capability we created and mobilized during WWII was virtually unknown, or disbelieved by most of the rest of the world, until we proved it.
Some people knew, even some of the military leaders of nations who became our enemies, but they weren't listened to by those in charge.
Yamamoto spent time in the US before the war, and knew our potential, which is why he advised against war with the US. His warnings were not heeded.
There is a story (can't verify if its true or not) where supposedly Goering dismissed the threat of war with the US saying "all the Americans can make are refrigerators and razor blades"... according to the story, Galland then asked if he could get some of those razor blades....(which didn't earn him any points with his boss, Goering...)
Small arms on their own don't win wars, there is a lot more involved in that, but if you look at what we fielded in WW II, and were to point to any one person who did more than anyone else to create the successful arms we used, I'd vote for JM Browning.
Our main pistol was a Browning design, and our machine guns .30 and .50 were Brownings. And the BAR was Browning. Our rifles weren't but I think mostly because Browning died several years before the Army went looking for something better than the 1903 Springfield bolt action.
As an intellectual exercise, I think its interesting to imagine what Browning might have come up with, had he lived and kept designing for another decade....
What I've heard about the M2 carbines is that the early ones had "user problems" because the selector switch was close to the magazine release, and troops would sometimes use the wrong one. This ended when the selector switch location was moved.
The biggest thing (most widespread) that I've heard is that the 30 round mags were problems, in both M1 and M2 carbines. Some would work ok, many would not, so reliability was "problematic".
Not a good thing when your life may depend on it.
The biggest thing (most widespread) that I've heard is that the 30 round mags were problems, in both M1 and M2 carbines. Some would work ok, many would not, so reliability was "problematic".
Not a good thing when your life may depend on it.
My father was issued an M-1 carbine when he was in Okinawa.
He was a Corpral in charge of a USAAF ground radio station.
The problem he had with the M-1 carbine was that the magazine release was a push button. Right next to the cross bolt safety.
The only time he fired his carbine in a combat situation, he accidentally dropped the magazine, instead of going off safe.
When the Jap saw my Dad, fortunately, he ran off. Dad reloaded and sprayed 15rds into the bushes.
He liked his Carbine and brought it home, he got back to Montana right before his 20th birthday.
He was a Corpral in charge of a USAAF ground radio station.
The problem he had with the M-1 carbine was that the magazine release was a push button. Right next to the cross bolt safety.
The only time he fired his carbine in a combat situation, he accidentally dropped the magazine, instead of going off safe.
When the Jap saw my Dad, fortunately, he ran off. Dad reloaded and sprayed 15rds into the bushes.
He liked his Carbine and brought it home, he got back to Montana right before his 20th birthday.
GI's never complained about anything in WWII ...
Are you kidding ... I can hear my old man and my uncles now ... I can post what they didn't complain about easier .
They didn't complain about ... uh , lets see ... Heck Fire ... they complained about everything ... a lot of complaining about food ! Not so much about arms , Dad had a Kabar combat knife he was quite proud of ...but food was bad and they talked about that a lot .
Them boys missed their Cajun Mamma's good home cooking !
Gary
Are you kidding ... I can hear my old man and my uncles now ... I can post what they didn't complain about easier .
They didn't complain about ... uh , lets see ... Heck Fire ... they complained about everything ... a lot of complaining about food ! Not so much about arms , Dad had a Kabar combat knife he was quite proud of ...but food was bad and they talked about that a lot .
Them boys missed their Cajun Mamma's good home cooking !
Gary
Jim Watson
New member
Early carbines had cross bolt safety and magazine catch. After a few experiences like 105kw Sr, they changed the safety to a rotary lever.
I never heard anything about moving the selector, it is on the left front of the receiver on the few I have seen or seen pictured.
The 30 round magazine was troublesome, they revised the magazine catch to hold it more securely.
I never heard anything about moving the selector, it is on the left front of the receiver on the few I have seen or seen pictured.
The 30 round magazine was troublesome, they revised the magazine catch to hold it more securely.
44AMP - I bet that SeaBee buddy of yours fought in the SW Pacific. MacArthur had a habit of declaring an area secured (it made him look better in the press) while the guys on the ground were still engaged in heavy fighting. MacArthur said it was "mop-up" operations. Some mop-up.
I enlisted USMC 1960 and most senior NCO had fought WWII. My first tissue rifle was M-1 Garand. I was O311 so first thing I learned, was what ribbons relate to combat.
I was very lucky having Bull Fissher.
http://www.kbaymarine.com/images/Colonel_Joseph_R_Bull_Fisher.pdf
I was very lucky having Bull Fissher.
http://www.kbaymarine.com/images/Colonel_Joseph_R_Bull_Fisher.pdf
stuckinthe60s
New member
those M1/M2 mags were made in Seymour ct, as were the Thompson sticks and drums. my family worked in that factory. the actual empty plant burnt to the ground just recently in 2008.
The "Other Guy's" stuff is always better. Rommel examined captured/destroyed US vehicles at Kasserine Pass, he remarked on the high degree of standardization. The Germans were quite taken aback when they first encountered the T-34 tank.
The stories about the lack of stopping power of the M-1 Carbine seem to come from Korea.
I have long suspected the problem were groggy and exhausted and sleep deprived GIs and Marines trying to fight Chinese hordes at 0200 in sub-zero weather and howling winds.
In Vietnam they could shoot our ammo out of their AKs but we couldn't shoot theirs.
At the Battle of South Mountain, September 14, 1862 Union forces captured an entire Confederate brigade. The colonel of a New Jersey regiment told his troops to stack their smoothbores and take the .577 Enfields they had taken.
The stories about the lack of stopping power of the M-1 Carbine seem to come from Korea.
I have long suspected the problem were groggy and exhausted and sleep deprived GIs and Marines trying to fight Chinese hordes at 0200 in sub-zero weather and howling winds.
In Vietnam they could shoot our ammo out of their AKs but we couldn't shoot theirs.
At the Battle of South Mountain, September 14, 1862 Union forces captured an entire Confederate brigade. The colonel of a New Jersey regiment told his troops to stack their smoothbores and take the .577 Enfields they had taken.
"In Vietnam they could shoot our ammo out of their AKs but we couldn't shoot theirs."
What ammo did we have that worked in the AK's? I have heard this for years but have never heard what it was. I have 7.63x39, 5.56, 308, 30-06, and don't see how any of them would be interchangeable.
What ammo did we have that worked in the AK's? I have heard this for years but have never heard what it was. I have 7.63x39, 5.56, 308, 30-06, and don't see how any of them would be interchangeable.
Somewhere I have a picture of a DAK column in Tunisa. The lead vehicle is a German SDKFZ 251 halftrack, the second vehicle is a US M2 or M3 halftrack with a German Cross painted on the side over the US flag marking. The rest of the column is a mix of US, British Italian trucks and maybe a German truck in there, somewhere. If it ran when the DAK captured it, they used it until it didn't run anymore. Trucks halftracks cars but not captured tanks.
In Russia, the Germans would use captured tanks, as well as rifles and SMGs, and anything else they captured in working condition, other than aircraft... The Soviet PPSH smg was particularly prized for its ammo capacity.
In the pacific, we used captured Japanese trucks and construction equipment (and, of course also food). When we retook the Philippines we had to fight some US M3 light tanks the Japanese captured there in 41.
Sometimes the other guys stuff is better. Sometimes, its just there and can be used.
This one I have to take issue with. It was Bull when first thought up and its still bull today. It is NOT true. The AK 47 uses the 7.62x39mm round. The .30 cal round used by the US in VietNam was the 7.62x51mm NATO round (aka .308 Winchester in civilian loadings). The case body is longer and larger diameter than the Russian round. It will not go into the AK chamber enough for the gun to close and fire it.
IF you count the ARVN forces, there were also .30-06 and .30 carbine ammo in use and neither of those will work in an AK, either Nor will the AK round fit or fire in our guns, either.
"In Vietnam they could shoot our ammo out of their AKs but we couldn't shoot theirs" was a myth when it was created, its been busted over and over but people keep repeating it. People said the same kind of thing about US 06 and Jap 7.7mm rifles in WWII. That wasn't true, either.
There IS one case I have found where there is an actual "they can shoot ours but we can't shoot theirs" situation, and that is the 81mm mortar.
The US 81mm mortar is a simple smoothbore tube with a fixed firing pin at the bottom. The Soviet/Chinese mortar in that size class is also a smoothbore tube with a fixed firing pin at the bottom, but its bore is 82mm.
Our 81mm ammo will slide down their 82mm tube and fire...usually.
Their 82mm ammo with usually get stuck in our 81mm tubes.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
It didn't interchange, but when I was in Vietnam I heard that story innumerable times. I don't know how it started, but it was repeated by people who didn't know anything about firearms. They heard or saw "7.62mm" and assumed that our ammo would shoot through AK-47s because "it's the same caliber." Which it is -- it just happens to be a different cartridge in the same caliber.kenny53 said:
It doesn't make any sense, but I can attest that it's true that rumor was wide-spread in Vietnam.
There was and still is a lot of BS spouted in the seervice about fireams. For example:
* 5.56 bullets tumble when they hit flesh, so you could get shot in the leg and have the bullet come out of your chest/arm/head (choose whichever sounds more gruesome at the time)
* Conversely, 5.56 bullets just zip right through and only make a little hole in flesh, so the bad guys can keep fighting even after they're shot.
* Or, 5.56 bullets make a huge hole and blow body parts right off.
(These previous three were told to me by the same person, who claimed he knew about guns because he was in the Corps and had seen it. While I don't doubt he had seen those things, he had NO knowledge about terminal ballistics.)
* The 5.56 can't penetrate jungle foliage, but their AKs can shoot right through it (as if by magic).
* An AK can't hit anything beyond 150 yards
* Conversely, An AK can hit you if you just barely peek out of cover.
I will tell you that I heard more BS about guns from people who supposedly knew about guns just because they carried them.
* 5.56 bullets tumble when they hit flesh, so you could get shot in the leg and have the bullet come out of your chest/arm/head (choose whichever sounds more gruesome at the time)
* Conversely, 5.56 bullets just zip right through and only make a little hole in flesh, so the bad guys can keep fighting even after they're shot.
* Or, 5.56 bullets make a huge hole and blow body parts right off.
(These previous three were told to me by the same person, who claimed he knew about guns because he was in the Corps and had seen it. While I don't doubt he had seen those things, he had NO knowledge about terminal ballistics.)
* The 5.56 can't penetrate jungle foliage, but their AKs can shoot right through it (as if by magic).
* An AK can't hit anything beyond 150 yards
* Conversely, An AK can hit you if you just barely peek out of cover.
I will tell you that I heard more BS about guns from people who supposedly knew about guns just because they carried them.
Steven Pressfield wrote a great book called Killing Rommel. Its historical fiction but very well researched and written, it follows a Long Range Desert Group patrol through a mission to attempt to kill Rommel. It covers the mixed bags of equipment being used by both sides, even to the point of Germans preferring Chevrolets but both sides preferring the German made fuel and water jerrycans.