The Death of the Neo-Cons

"When someone with an (R) after his name rapes the Constitution, liberals and conservatives both cheer him on."

You can't be serious. If the liberals were cheering the big (R) how do you explain the election results? I don't even think most of the conservatives were cheering or have been cheering. Just take a look at TFL and THR for openers.

I don't even know if I can spell hyperbole, but I know it when I see it.

John
 
Shamus please list for us the names and numbers of all the "rights" you have personally lost. WAiting WAiting......
 
Shamus please list for us the names and numbers of all the "rights" you have personally lost. WAiting WAiting......

If you have to ask, I would have to spend a whole of time trying to enlighten you. I bet if democrats did what Bush has done, you'd be in a frothy rage. Yes, I am sure of that.

some rights that have been compromised are not necessarily mine. Abortion issues don't affect me personally. Stop-loss orders no longer apply to me. Privacy rights and my Fourth Amendment rights have certainly been affected.


Though it has been "reformed", the Patriot Act, Title II , is a good example of my compromised privacy rights
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act%2C_Title_II#Section_213:_Delayed_search_warrant_notification
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_act#Expiration_and_reauthorization

From Libertarian writer Lew Rockwell's site, article by Anthony Gregory goes through the Bill of Rights, one by one, giving examples. http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory10.html

from paleoconservative chuck baldwin
http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/020105ChuckBaldwin.shtml

CONSCRIPTION: aka "Stop Loss Order". google it.

Civiil Liberties lost: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0307/S00041.htm
 
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Greg, I don't think he was getting personal really... but I think it is important to know what people's motivations are. I think his question was legitimate.

Are you on the Republican payroll?
 
"I do not understand how you can say it is worse to vote democrat. Just for fear of losing RKBA? How about losing your right to privacy, your right to a fair trial, your right to due course, your freedom to speak out with out being labeled a disident??? "

Lose your guns and see how fast the other rights go out the window and disappear over the horizon. And then how are you going to get them back? With harsh words?

John
 
How about losing your right to privacy, your right to a fair trial, your right to due course, your freedom to speak out with out being labeled a disident???

I keep hearing this rant about our country massively losing these rights but I have yet to see people at random being subjected to this. I have seen it used to good effect to pursue those individuals or groups that conspire to do this country and its infrastructure murderous harm.
But there is what I perceive to be a 'sky is falling' hysteria concerning this unfounded loss of rights. If I saw neighborhoods rounded up and herded into train cars, now I can understand the concern. But I only see it used to good effect in these trying times we live in.

The Constitution is NOT a suicide pact.
 
Which loss of constitutional rights would that fall under? Would that be the right to not be inconvenienced?

Mistakes, while unfortunate, are not 'crimes against the people'.
I would rather have overcautious law enforcement rather than complacency given the terrorists proclivity to using airplanes as weapons.

The Constitution is NOT a suicide pact.
 
Would that be the right to not be inconvenienced?
Ahh, I see the problem now. You believe the Constitution is an enumeration of your Freedoms and not an enumeration of the Limited Powers of Fedgov. Nope, I can't point to any statement of the Framers which demands that .gov remove us from Red Lists for travel by common carrier. Therefore, we have no right to expect such accountability. Silly me.

Moving right along. We find the first case in which the provisions of PATRIOT, making it a felony to lie to an agent of FedGov, was against that well known terrorist, Martha Stewart. Yup, she was not found guilty of a single SEC violation or other crime. She did a year in prison for lying to a Federal Agent under a law specifically passed to assist us in jailing terrorists.

Ahh, but what that heck. The rich snob probably deserved what she got. That could never happen to US, right? I mean, the government would see that we're on their side.

I have seen it used to good effect to pursue those individuals or groups that conspire to do this country and its infrastructure murderous harm.
Your turn. Name three, the specific laws that enabled us to pursue them and the specific tactics that were authorized by those laws, lest I accuse you of Sound Byte Regurgitation. Source, please.
Rich
 
Trainman said:
The Constitution is NOT a suicide pact.
BTW, you keep posting this as if to make your point. And it is witty, on surface, I'll grant. While I'm certain that you researched this little byte before clutching it to your bosom, allow me to explain its profound history for the rest of the class.

"The Constitution is NOT a suicide pact" was first used by SCOTUS Justice Robert H. Jackson in 1949. Interestingly, he used it in a First Amendment case. It seems that the City of Chicago convicted a priest for his anti-semitic remarks under an ordinance which made it illegal to make public statements which "stirs the public to anger, invites dispute, brings about a condition of unrest, or creates a disturbance".

SCOTUS struck the law down as a violation of the First Amendment by a 5-4 decision. (This was back when the Supremes tended to find in favor of liberty in issues of liberty vs "public safety"). Justice Jackson, penned these famous words in his dissenting opinion. That's right, his dissent. He, too, understood "dangerous times". Justice Jackson knew just how dangerous freedom of speech might be in the Pre-McCarthy, growing Cold of Post WWII. Thus, he felt it should be illegal to utter words which "stirs the public to anger, invites dispute, brings about a condition of unrest, or creates a disturbance".

Looks like they overlooked the true meaning of this wonderful catch-all phrase when they put PATRIOT together. Fear not, there's always PATRIOT III. :D
Rich
 
I believe I asked the first question, before I was ridiculed for having an independent thought, was where has is the affect of all of the loss of rights manifested itself. Okay Martha stewart was brought out. Hers was a plea deal that was agreed upon in lieu of a securities fraud conviction to allow her to continue with her corporation.
If I concede that one, where is the perceived loss of rights being felt?
I haven't lost any ability to my pursuit of the freedoms I enjoy.
But you might contend that the loss is coming, or the potential exists. I contend that has been in existence since this country was founded.
Back to my original question, Where is the loss of freedoms or rights being felt?
I haven't seen it.

Now I will sit back and wait for the attacks.
 
I am still waiting for Shamus to list those rights he has lost!! He goes on and on in general but STILL WAITING for the list that HE says affected him directly,....still waiting:barf:
 
Trainman-
No one is ridiculing you, but you continue to degrade your own credibility with your lack of research. Martha Stewart never entered a Plea Bargain, though it was offered. When .gov realized they had no case for securities crime, they settled for the next best thing: violations of the PATRIOT Act. She pled innocent and was tried. This was the first time this provision of PATRIOT's "anti-terror" laws were ever applied. Worked well, too. She was found guilty, as I said, of lying to an agent of FedGov. I personally felt much safer in my bed at night with her off the street. Didn't you?

So, yes, you did ask the first question and I responded directly: Martha Stewart. You don't get to say, "Well OK, but where is the loss of freedoms to you?" It's already been answered easily: Martha Stewart, like her or not. Her past, my kids' future.

Now in the tradition of fair and polite debate. I get to ask you a question. Well actually, I get to repeat one, because you totally sidestepped it first time around.
Trainman said:
I have seen it used to good effect to pursue those individuals or groups that conspire to do this country and its infrastructure murderous harm.
I repeat:
Your turn. Name three, the specific laws that enabled us to pursue them and the specific tactics that were authorized by those laws, lest I accuse you of Sound Byte Regurgitation. Source, please.
Rich
 
I am still waiting for Shamus to list those rights he has lost!! He goes on and on in general but STILL WAITING for the list that HE says affected him directly,....still waiting

I doubt if you've read my previous post.

A violation of anyone's rights/liberties is a violation of my rights/liberties.

If you can't understand that, there's nothing more i can say.
 
Lest I be accused of sound bite regurgitation ad nauseum (pun intended) I looked around and there is plenty of documentation for you to repudiate.
I will submit but one article, as I have no time for you to discount them all:

Patriot Act Protects Americans from Terrorism

By: Thomas Anderson
Burlington Free Press
August 3, 2004


Recently there has been extensive press coverage of Rep. Bernard Sanders' opposition to the USA Patriot Act. Much of this coverage has been inaccurate, unbalanced and unnecessarily frightening to the public. It is time to set the record straight.

As recognized in the Declaration of Independence, the first responsibility of government is to preserve the lives and liberty of the people. Following the horrific events of Sept. 11, President Bush, the Senate and the House of Representatives, in a rare display of bipartisanship, vowed to do everything within the boundaries of the Constitution to prevent additional terrorist attacks.

The Patriot Act is one of the most significant tools Congress has given to law enforcement to combat the people that want to kill Americans on U.S. soil. The Patriot Act passed 98 to 1 in the Senate and 357 to 66 in the House of Representatives. Sanders was one of the 66 House members to vote against the USA Patriot Act.

The Patriot Act has enhanced the fight against terrorists in four key areas: (1) it has removed obstacles to investigating terrorism; (2) it has strengthened the criminal laws against terrorism; (3) it has enhanced the federal government's capacity to share intelligence; and (4) it has updated the law to keep pace with tremendous advances in technology.

Essentially the Patriot Act gives investigators the ability to fight terror, using many of the same court-approved tools that have been used successfully for many years in drug, fraud, and organized crime cases. Do the critics of the Patriot Act believe that law enforcement should not use these same tools to protect Americans from terrorists?

The critics of the Patriot Act also fail to tell the American people that the Patriot Act is actually working to protect them.

As of May 5, 2004, the Department of Justice has charged 310 defendants with criminal offenses as a result of terrorism investigations since the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and 179 of those defendants have already been convicted, including shoe bomber Richard Reid.

Four terrorist cells in Buffalo, Portland, Detroit, and Seattle have been broken up, and millions of dollars in assets destined to finance terrorist activities have been frozen or forfeited. Details of the successes of the Patriot Act can be found on the Department of Justice Web site, www.usdoj.gov and at www.lifeandliberty.gov.

Despite the success of the Patriot Act, many misconceptions and myths have emerged about the intention and the content of the Patriot Act.

Instead of providing a single example of the Patriot Act being misused, opponents make frightening, unsubstantiated claims that the Patriot Act is a virtual roll back of the First Amendment. Indeed, one often wonders whether these critics have even read the Patriot Act.

While debate on the Patriot Act or any other law is healthy and forms the cornerstone of American democracy, misinformed debate neither enlightens nor teaches. It is therefore vital that Vermonters get accurate information and decide on the validity of the Patriot Act for themselves. In this regard, much of the current criticism about the Patriot Act is simply not true.

One provision that opponents particularly criticize is the business records provision (Section 215), which opponents, including Sanders, claim gives law enforcement carte-blanche to examine our reading habits at libraries or bookstores. This claim is misleading and intended to frighten law-abiding citizens.

Library records have long been obtainable pursuant to grand jury subpoenas in routine criminal investigations. In fact, library records obtained by subpoena or voluntarily provided were an important part of the years-long investigation into the murderous activities of the Unibomber.

Are these critics of the Patriot Act advocating shielding from law enforcement scrutiny the library records of terrorists who obtain books or other materials on bomb building or anthrax cultivation? In such instances, the Patriot Act now allows terror investigators to obtain court orders, issued by judges sitting in a specialized court in Washington, for such records in international terrorism cases.

That court must find that the requested records are relevant to either obtaining foreign intelligence information against someone other than a United States citizen or to protect against terrorism or spying. The act expressly forbids investigation solely based on First Amendment activities.

Another provision that has caused concern is the so-called "delayed notice" search warrant. Delayed notice of search warrants is neither new nor unique. It simply allows law enforcement to delay notifying an individual of a judicially authorized search for a reasonable period of time so that an ongoing investigation will not be compromised.

For decades, the Supreme Court and other courts have found these search warrants constitutional and appropriate in cases involving drug dealing and organized crime. Should terrorists and murderers receive greater constitutional protections than drug dealers? Of course not. Delayed notice of search warrants is critical in the terrorism fight. Without the ability to do delayed notice search warrants many investigations would suffer and terrorists would escape.

Finally, the Patriot Act allows for the sharing of information between law enforcement and the intelligence community. Prior to the passage of the Patriot Act, despite the critical need to get intelligence information into the hands of appropriate government personnel, such information sharing between national security officials and criminal investigators was illegal.

The Patriot Act brought down this wall and expressly permits the full coordination between intelligence and law enforcement. In short, the left hand now knows what the right hand is doing and vice-versa. This simply makes common sense.

The indelible image of the Twin Towers and the Pentagon burning against a brilliant blue September sky should be a reminder to us all that the first responsibility of government is to preserve the lives and liberty of the people. The Patriot Act has provided law enforcement with the tools to protect the American people by discovering and preventing acts of terrorism before they occur. Many of these tools are already available to law enforcement for use in tracking down other criminal activity, the Patriot Act now allows these same tools to be used in the war on terror. Armed with accurate information, Vermonters will readily see that the nation needs the Patriot Act.

Finally, I am submitting this letter in my own personal capacity and not as an assistant United States attorney. The views expressed in this letter are mine and do not necessarily express the views of the Department of Justice or the United States Attorney's Office for the District of Vermont.
Thomas D. Anderson lives in South Burlington.
 
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