The Death of the Neo-Cons

S

shamus005

New member
I hopefully see this election as the death of the neocon movement.

What the noeocons gave us:

  • Nation building (we criticized Clinton for that, didn't we??)
  • Deficit spending, and utter fiscal irresponsibility
  • Big Government
  • Unilateral foreign policy approaches that leave us holding the ball, and the bill!
  • Kowtowing to the christian-facist's twisted agenda(which turns off all those moderate voters who decided to vote democrat in this election)
  • The rape of civil liberties and Big Brother

Maybe the republicans can go back to the fiscally responsible, small government party with a more pragmatic foreign policy approach (ala Bush Sr and Reagan).

Yeah, people are saying the Dems will rape civil liberties, and they did sign the Patriot Act. Yes, the Dems are really no different than the Republicans. I call them both Republicrats.

It makes me ruefully laugh at the fact that the Dems will now use all the tools that the republicans have installed to halt opposition debate in congress. A democrat president will use the same tools that the neo-cons gave to Bush. The shoe is on the other foot. The republicans are gonna squeal about how unfair it is that the Dems are doing to them what the republicans have done to the democrats.

The Neo-cons have set up a government of unilateralism, that has installed congressional tools to halt oppositon and debate, a government that has the tools to willfully violate the bill of rights all in the name of "counter terrorism". The Dems have inherited all these tools and they are gonna use them to advance their agendas!

Good, job, Neo-cons. don't let the door hit your arse on the way out!
 
I don't think you are clear on what a neoconservative is. On the other hand, it is pretty clear you have swallowed democrat propaganda hook line and sinker. Enjoy your RKBA while you can.
 
When someone with a (D) after his name tries to rape the Constitution, conservatives everywhere try to stop it from happening. And they often succeed.

When someone with an (R) after his name rapes the Constitution, liberals and conservatives both cheer him on. And anyone who tries to stop it gets told they are on the side of terrorists, and throwing their votes away. And they never succeed in stopping it.

pax
 
Enjoy your RKBA while you can.
Click to expand...



I don't have any RKBA. I live in Illinois. I know what democrats are capable of doing. I'm living in it.


The republicans have screwed themselves with neo-conservativism and big government. They lost the moderates, and they even lost more traditional conservatives. They need to get back to their roots.

Propaganda? Yeah, I've seen it on both ends. The neo-cons take away my liberties under the guise of "counter terrorism". The Dems spin their own propaganda, but they voted with and for all those things right along with the republicans.

Two parties, same goal, different approaches. Republicrats.
 
Clearly, the republicans lost their way (although I still think you guys have no idea what neoconservatism is). But voting for Democrats and third parties is like shooting yourself in the head rather than in the foot.
 
Greg ~

Ah ... you are of the opinion that an (R) raping the Constitution is somehow better than a (D) doing exactly the same thing.

Choosing between (D) and (R) is like choosing between shooting yourself in the head or in the heart. Heaven help anyone who dares to suggest that you don't have to shoot yourself at all.

pax
 
No love for either party

I think you definition of neo-conservative as it appplies to the republican party is slightly off:


Neo-cons - 1. Are elitists
2. Disdain all religion
3. See themselves as pragmatists and not idealogues
4. Believe that "rights" are given by government
5. Could not care less about the RKBA
6. Value money and power as "practical & real values"
7. Believe in an all powerful central govt to
maintain order.
8. Want balanced budgets as long as they don't
interfere with their internationalist big business
goals.
9. Value money and business over individuals and
liberty.
10.See themselves as realists forced to play politics
in order to save this country and the world from
religious nuts and looney liberals.
11.Believe that whatever is good for capitalism is
good for the country.:barf:

They control the Republican party just like the socialists control the Democratic party.

Socialist- 1. Are elitists and like to be called progressives
2. Disdain all religion
3. See themselves as pragmatists and not idealogues
4. Believe that "rights" are given by government
5. Could not care less about the RKBA
6. Value money and power as "practical & real values"
7. Believe in an all powerful central govt to
maintain order.
8. Want balanced budgets as long as they don't
interfere with their agenda to provide a mommy
state.
9. Value money and "fairness" or equality of outcome
and security over individuals and liberty.
10.See themselves as realists forced to play politics
in order to save this country and the world from
religious nuts and corporate capitalists.
11.Believe that whatever provides for the most
"fairness and security" for the greatest,number is
good for the country.

:barf:
 
I fall paleo. I just wanted to post the definition of neo so Greg didn't have to keep throwing out
(although I still think you guys have no idea what neoconservatism is).
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and the debate could move on in case someone really didn't know what neo-conservatism was.
 
Don't kid yourself, Shamus. We'll be back. It'll just take a while for the new majority to screw things up so bad that the average Joe gets sick of it, and demands another flushing of the political toilet.

I personally hope, for the good of the nation, that there are enough politicains on both sides of the aisle who have gotten the message that voters have been trying to get across, since 1980. Stray to far from basic American values, and you're fired.

My side asked for it; now your side gets their turn. I know a lot of conservative Democrats who'll vote Republican in a heartbeat, and vice-versa. The die is a long way from cast.
 
If religion does not matter to neo-cons, then why are the hoo-ha over faith-based initiatives, the constant chest puffing abut values, etc? Look at the GOP website and they make quite a big deal about it.

If I'm somewhat off base about neo-cons, I'm open to discussion. What I am sure is everything else I listed (big brother government, etc)
 
mack59:
They control the Republican party just like the socialists control the Democratic party.
Click to expand...
I think there is a difference, though. At least I hope so. First, I don't think the neos control the party. I do think they were given free rein. I believe the Republicans were concentrating on what would keep them in office, forgetting that a principled electorate put them there in the first place. The neocons aren't conservatives in the traditional sense, just as today's Liberals are not what they used to be either.

Which leads me to my other point. Why is there no discussion of Neo-dems? Because the ideologs have taken hold in that party and there's no room for gradations of party participation: see Sen. Joe Lieberman.

So, if the Republican party can't shake the neocons influence in their party, they are in the same fix as the Dems and that 60-80% philosophical center of Americans will become more interested in alternatives. One of our problems is patience. These things take time.

Another thing, 'just an opinion, now, but once you make political associations in your own mind that Republicans represent conservatism and Dems represent socialism, it is like breaking bones to shift away that idea. I still don't think the Republicans are quite the lock-step ideologs as the Dems, but looking at the last two years especially, I'm not sure that defined the difference.

One thing's for sure, drinking your own liquid waste by products will make you stoopid.
 
Good points, Bud. Labels are always changing anyway. When I was a kid, the Dems were considered the conservatives and, to add further fuel to the fire, in the 1770's the Founding Fathers were considered liberals because they wanted to form their own government.
The more I learn, the more I find I don't know.

badbob
 
shamus005 Quote:


"If religion does not matter to neo-cons, then why are the hoo-ha over faith-based initiatives, the constant chest puffing abut values, etc? Look at the GOP website and they make quite a big deal about it."


People of faith who are republican are the traditional or paleo-conservatives not the neo-cons. Neo-cons like to pay lip service to the idea of religion or traditional values - but they only really do so to mollify the "religious nuts" in the party. The hooha over faith-based initiatives is because that was a "Bush" thing that the neo-cons could live with since it didn't get in the way of more important issues and since it also served as a sop to the religious conservatives, since the neo-cons weren't going to get into an abortion battle. Most neo-cons were pissed about the blocking of federal funds for stem cell research - since it, (in their minds), blocked progress, messed up lucurative business possiblities, and was a case of religious nuts messing up a good thing - but then that was due to the religious streak in Bush - who is not an idealogue and who while he has a lot of neo-con in him also has some traditional conservative traits. Neo-cons see the religious wing of the party as akin to the extended family member that everyone talks about behind their back, at a family reunion, as being a little weird. They find gun rights and people of faith to be distasteful. People have a right to own guns but if you really own one you are a little out there. Religion and God are good - especially on Sundays - but people who take it too literally or too seriously are a little out there. Neo-cons are, by their lights, the elite, enlightened, and educated conservatives.:barf:
 
panties in a knot

This is another one of those threads that get my panties in a knot as we used to say down south.:)

Greg, I do not understand how you can say it is worse to vote democrat. Just for fear of losing RKBA? How about losing your right to privacy, your right to a fair trial, your right to due course, your freedom to speak out with out being labeled a disident???

These are things we have been losing. There is no need for speculation and fearful prophesizing on these matters. Is RKBA worth losing these things for??? Once these things are lost do you really think they are going to let you stay armed?

How about, instead of moaning and whining, we start trying to take the bad with the good and start trying to work on bringing the dems to a more gun friendly position and stop acting like gun crazed radicals and forcing them even further towards the anti-gun special interests.
 
If religion does not matter to neo-cons, then why are the hoo-ha over faith-based initiatives, the constant chest puffing abut values, etc? Look at the GOP website and they make quite a big deal about it.

If I'm somewhat off base about neo-cons, I'm open to discussion. What I am sure is everything else I listed (big brother government, etc)
 
They are not so much about values as they are about holding office. That's why. They misjudged the mainstream as bad as the other side. They thought it was time to run on religious values. Wrong guess! They pay. Now we get to tell the Dems we don't want galloping Socialism again. Back and forth. Reid says they have a mandate. That's what Bush thought too. Idiots. They'll go off the deep end, I have that much faith.
 
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