The death of the Co-Pilot

Ipecac,

I'm not sure what he would charge for a .450 Alaskan. Yes, he could do one in .500 but you might have to split the reamer cost with him or something if he didn't have it on hand.
His name is Phil Chiaravalle. He's an excellent gunsmith who really understands big bore rifles.
He's also working on a couple of proprietary cartridges, ask him about them.
His email is gunsmith@ptialaska.net - give him a holler.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Ken,

I had to think about your idea of modifying the gear ratio somehow to make the long action BLR a more responsive package for longer cartridges.
Thats a damned interesting idea. It would be expensive of course but maybe not prohibitive if you were doing a whole series of rifles. The larger gears still have to fit in the receiver... Have to look at one and see if it could be done.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Mad Dog,
Saw your comments on the .35 Whelen, which reminded me that I've been recently curious about the potential efficacy of the wildcat .375 Whelen for use in the bear/elk category. The bullet has the right ballistic pedigree, but I'm not so sure that the -06 case would allow one to take sufficient advantage of the bullet's potential. Seems the minimal shoulder left would hardly be anymore effective than a relatively straight wall case (e.g. the .444 or .45-70). Any experience or here-tell-of which you'd care to share on this one?
 
If no one minds, I'd like to post my 2 cents worth, and answer several posts at one time. Remington 600's and 660's in .350 Remington sell for $700.00 up here in southern Arizona. They have the samr typeextractor as the Remington model 700. I don't know how many thousands of rounds went through my 660 before the extractor gave up the ghosts, but it was a bunch. I have a very lightweight .308 Winchester, built on a standard Steyr Mauser action, 19 1/2 inch barrel, and the light weight Harry lawson thumbhole stock. Actual weight is 5.5 pounds with sling and 4 rounds of ammo. I believe you could build the same combo in .35 Whelan and not go much over 6.25 pounds. Yes my rifle is scoped with a Leupold 4x compact, no iron sights. Iron sights are not compatible with that stock. Hoever, substitute a lightweight classic synthetic stock and you could have your irons. The barrel would be very light and thin, but they will shoot. Mine does from 1 to 1.5 inches, depending on what I put in it. The action is a full length Mauser, and has the controlled feed that I would consider essential for the type of rifle you are looking for. I also have two .35 Whelans and I think it is a fantastic round. I guess in my old age I want my game to drop a lot faster and not travel as far, when I shoot them. Hell, maybe old Elmer Keith was right. Anyway, maybe some of my ideas will help you out.
Paul B.
 
Paul,

Theres a lot of distrust of Remington extractors among people who hunt dangerous game. I know several people who have had their extractors replaced with Sako extractors upon buying a rifle.
Remingtons are probably the best factory type rifles going but they do have this flaw. On a rifle like we are envisioning it has to be considered. Luckily the fix is inexpensive and easy to do.
We are probably going to make two different rifles for this project. The BLR carbine as originally envisioned and a bolt rifle on the model seven action - which will have the extractor replaced.
There are a lot of things you can do to lighten a rifle and still use a standard length action. But for our purposes, every inch of length and ounce of weight we save makes the rifle more attractive to those who've been in the alders with a big browny. We envision selling this rifle to people like me who hunt medium game in brown bear country and to guides who have to follow up wounded bears.
For someone like yourself in Arizona, this rifle would make little sense unless you just like the portability, its nice to have a lighter rifle to lug around. Sort of a niche market...

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Keith. I appreciate what you are trying to build. You will notice that I specified a Mauser action. I think that the Mauser is probably the most reliable action there is, with the benefit of controlled feed. No double feeding like what can happen with a push feed such as the Remington and Sako. That would eliminate most sources of jamming in a life and death situation. Let's face it, the most life and death situation you can face is war, and the Mauser is designed for war. Old man Mauser designed a rifle that would be as fool proof as he could make.
Let me describe my rifle in detail, and consider the same thing chambered for the .35 Whelan. The rifle has the lightest weight stock Harry Lawson makes. It has a blind magazine, IE, no bottom metal, a huge weight savings. Overall length is 40 inches, but the Lawson thumbhole stocks are usually an inch longer than a conventional stock. That gets it down to 39 inches. I have a 19.5 inch barrel, which could,if you really want it short, be cut back to 16.5 inches. Now we're down to 36 inches. You could trim the stock about another inch to allow for cold weather clothing. That's shorter than a model 94 Winchester. Total weight loaded with 4 rounds, scope and sling, 5.5 pounds. In a 16.5 inch barrel,with a 225 gr. Nosler, you should reach 2400 fps or better with a good handload, seeing as the Whelan is underloaded a bit because of Remingtons pump gun. I have reached 2500fps to 2550fps with apparently safe handloads. That's 2500 fps in a 22 inch barrel, and 2550 fps in a 23 inch barrel. I have 2 .35 Whelans. I just looked in the Nosler book, and the difference in velocity, with the 225 gr. bullet, on a max load between the .350 Rem. and .35 Whelan is 70 fps, in favor of the Remington. Another thing, factory ammo doesn't quite reach advertised specs. I have clocked between 2250 and 2350 fps from my two rifles. Also I think Remington may have discontinued the .350 mag.
If so, you would have to make brass from something else, which would entail shortening, and neck reaming brass from some other cartridge, which may result in a smaller powder area. .35 Whelan from 30-06 brass is just a simple resizing task. and you are ready to go.
Gook luck on your project, whichever way you decide to go.
Paul B.
 
Paul,

I appreciate what you're saying about the controlled feeding of the Mauser. I wish a short action was available that had that feature but I don't know of any. I note that Savage is now offering a short action but I don't know if its a push or controlled feed - anybody know?
The best thing I can say about the Remingtons and the .350 Rem. Mag is that the Alaska Dept. of Fish and Game bought up several dozen of these rifles back in the 60's. They still have these rifles and these are the ones they reach for when they go out after rogues or wounded bears.
New ammo is still being made in .350 Rem. Mag - I just did a web search a few days ago and found plenty for sale. Lots of brass out there as well.
Theres no hurry on this. The first rifle we build will be on a BLR action. The bolt rifle will come along later and I want to look at one of these new short-action Savages and any other action that turns up as well.
The thing with the short action is that for every bit of shortening or lightening you do in the standard action, you still have the handicap of an extra pound of weight and an extra inch of pull to fire the rifle. Since the .350 Rem Mag has the edge (slightly) in ballistics it only makes sense to go with the shorter action.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Keith, I believe all current Savage bolts
are push feed, though I recall mention
of a "safari grade" rifle in a .4xx
cartridge that Savage had converted to
controlled feed. sounded like a
"Savage Custom Shop" sort of thing, don't
know if it got into production or not.
thus, the action itself seemingly can
be converted, but probably does not exist
on the shelf.
 
Ivanhoe (and Paul),

Thanks for the input on the controlled feed. The more I think about this, the more I realize it has to be addressed.

This is a rifle that somebody may have to use when they're being swatted around by a bear. Thats exactly when a push feed is likely to fail. We'll have to fix this somehow before we sell anyone a rifle. Luckily, the BLR is going to be the first rifle we work on so we have a bit of time to look at the bolt rifle and make decisions.
We could always go to a custom action from Dakota or something but the price begins to rise astronomically...

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Here is a nifty idea for a guide gun, admittedly not mine.
John Traister writes in "Wildcat Cartridges, Vol II", about a "Big" big bore mdl 94.
Page 557.
He converted a mdl 94 big bore to shoot the ".458 X 2" American" cartridge, first developed by Frank Barnes some years ago.
It is basically a shortened .458 win mag.
It is capable of hurling a 300 grain bullet at about 2100fps, a 400 grainer at 1900fps, and 500 grains at 1725fps.
The 400 grain Speer softpoint moving at 1820fps shot 1.125" groups.
Not too shabby, and certainly better than the .45/70.
Rifle with full length barrel weighed in at 8 pounds or so. It could be lightened by reducing barrel length and increasing the taper, and using a composite stock set.

To top it all off, he had it fitted with a Thompson/Center screw in choke, so it will handle shot loaded shells to boot. They are the theoretical equivalent of a 28 guage, loaded with 3/4 ounce of shot, and about 12.5 grains of Unique.
Talk about versatility, this is one for the books.

[This message has been edited by MAD DOG (edited April 10, 1999).]
 
Mad Dog,

Sounds like a neat idea. You could just lengthen the chamber in a .45 Colt Trapper and rework the bolt face and be in business. Thats assuming the Trapper can handle the pressure - they're only rated to 30,000 cup or something.
Maybe you could rebarrel a model 94 with a Trapper barrel and go to work? Or is the regular 94 a low pressure rifle as well?


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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
All,

I'm outa here until about the 23rd - gonna go lay on a Mexican beach and suck down cerveza!
Please keep the commentary rolling! I'm learning a lot and I thank each and every one of you for your idea's and commentary. I'll read every one of the notes as soon as I get back.

Later dudes!


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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Keith. It's too bad I didn't know you were going to head down in the general direction. I'm only 50 miles from the border. I would have invited you to stop by, and let you try out my super featherweight, and discuss your projects. Oh well. Maybe next time. Have a few cervesas for me.
Paul B.
COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!
 
how about a Winchester 88? .284 Winchester necked up to .338 or .375 is a great round and will have more power and better bullet selection than the .350 Rem Mag. You should also consider the short cartridges that Rick Jamison of Shooting Times has been working on based on the .404 case I believe.
 
I shoot the 350 in a rem 700 Classic with 22 bbl. There seems to be concerns that need to be addressed such as the availablility of factory ammo, hotter short cased 35's and 375's such as from Rick Jamison, Lazzoroni and others, the actual weight diference between the 308 and 30-06 action guns, etc.. The bottom line is that all of the approaches are compromises and since beauty is in the eyes....., I think whatever the 'solution' to your project really will not have too broad based appeal as each camp will have it's own idea about Paul Mauser controlled feed or not (keep in mind that both Ruger and Winchester have controlled feed actions now and some choices in both short and stainless, etc.). A lot of people will prefer something with a lot more firepower although my ballistics with the 22" bbl are very close to the 338 Win mag in the lighter weights (200-225gr and I don't use heavier than 250's because they don't give me the desired velocities). The exercise of designing your perfect rig is great and does get people to thinking and I do hope that you achieve success with yours. Good luck and keep us posted. We have been talking about a Sitka deer hunt and normally on some island with the big bears. I am planning on carrying my 350 as it is about the only gun that I have that is a pleasure to carry that I would consider for the suprise big bear situation. If I were hunting big bears, my 375HH would probably be my first choice and a lot of the boys are going to 40's now. When did our game get so much tougher, anyway? Maybe around 1952 when Harold Johnson found the 220 gr 30-06 leaving a little too much hair on that Brown bear sow for comfort and came up with the 450Alaskan? Have fun, Jim
PS: the model 700 weighs under 8# loaded with scope (1 1/2-5 LeupoldIII) and mounts and I can cut off over a # with an MPI stock from Doc Roland in Portland. With full power loads that would be plenty light when sighting in, or working up loads off the bench even with a Decelerator pad w/o a muzzle break. I do not like vented bbls on hunting guns.
 
Back from the land of bad beer and big hats. Lots of good comentary here while I was gone.

I had the opportunity to have a long discussion with a rifle indistry exec while I was on vacation. His suggestion: Go with a Browning Pump Rifle (BPR).
The BPR weighs about a pound more than the short action lever BLR but still has the rotary bolt and tight lockup. The enclosed reciever eliminates controlled feed problems. It has one other big plus - the barrel is totally free floating and so the accuracy is even bettter than the BLR.
Best of all, since the action is slightly longer, you can go to the standard length cartridges and eliminate all worries about realoading and ammo availability. People could order the rifle in the their favorite heavy cartridge and not have to worry about it.

Thats seems like a lot of gain for the small price of adding 1 pound to the weight of the rifle. I think a pump action is a more natural action and perhaps a faster shooting rifle for the average guy when the **** hits the fan.
My only problem is that I have never even laid eyes on a Browning BPR!
Has anyone shot one of these? What do you guys think of the BPR?


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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Keith. All I have seen are the write-ups in the gun rags, and with the exception of GUNTEST magazine, I take what they say with a lot of salt. I just checked back to Sep 96, and they haven't tested one yet. Now the only question is, does it come in a big enough cartridge? If it comes in .338 Mag. like the BAR, it certainly would be worth looking into. Another pump job is Remingtons. It came in .35 Whelan, which is certainly an option.
What kind of beer did you drink? Corona ain't bad. Living as close to the border as I do, it's no problen to slip across for a few brews. LOL. Actally, I can get it by the case at COSTCO.

Keep us up to date on your bear gun.
Paul B.

COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!
 
an enclosed receiver eliminating feed
problems? say what? my BS meter just
bent the needle on that one. the only
way I can envision the receiver housing
controlling cartridge movement is if the
inside diameter of the housing was pretty
close to the diameter of the cartridge.
given that the bolt gots to be larger than
the cartridge case, the housing then must
be too big to control feeding. but then,
that's what you get for talking to an
executive instead of an engineer! ;)

the other thing concerning the BPR is that
it's pump action may be more than just
sliding to and fro. I seem to recall
reading that you have pull the forend
down then slide it back. sounded clunky
to me. if I were you I'd handle one before
committing those hard-earned Rubins.
 
Paul,

I'm a dark beer guy. I do like the Negra Modelo which is sort of a German style dark lager. I also found a beer called Indio which is something like a British red ale - I was quite satified with the beer, just not enough varieties to suit a drunk like myself.

Ivanhoe, sorry if I set your BS meter off - I assumed that an enclosed action type like the BLR or BPR minimized the odds of a misfeed since the round couldn't pop into space when getting banged around - if thats not true, educate me.
And of course you're right about handling the rifle before making any decisions. Its my understanding that with the BPR the short stroke sort of cams itself down as you pull back the slide. I haven't handled one and I'd reallly like to see one and get some feedback on the rifle. I think I'll start a new thread and get some commentary from BPR shooters.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Keith, here's why an enclosed receiver
isn't going to help. to control a cartridge
during the feed cycle, the receiver would
have to provide a channel or ramp in
its upper surface to guide the cartridge
into the chamber. the problem is twofold.
one is that the bolt head has to pass thru
the reciever, thus the "ceiling" has to be
higher than the level of the chamber. second,
to really keep the cartridge from getting
into trouble, the channel in the receiver
would have to provide maybe 120 degrees of
contact. but this would inhibit ejection,
as the case would have to be pivoted
downward to clear the channel.

I guess the easiest solution is to use
disintegrating metal link belts, but that
might look a bit strange when hanging out
of a pump or levergun!

if the BPR handles well, it would seem to
be a good choice. I like the handling of
pumps better than levers, though a
Winchester 94 has about the best styling
of any rifle, ever. love those straight
lines...

here's a thought I've had for my mental
"Alaska Scout" project. put a Weaver rail
on the receiver, and then put a Trijicon
Reflex tritium-powered dot sight on the
rail. should get the quick target
acquisition of a dot sight without the
battery problems. should be able to find
a peep rear sight that can clamp to a
Weaver rail.

as for Mexican beer, I seem to recall it
tastes pretty good after a few shots of
tequila. or was it vice versa...
 
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