The death of the Co-Pilot

K

Keith Rogan

New member
A friend and I are "inventing" a new rifle. Something that will do everything the Co-Pilot (modified Marlin Guide Gun) does but lots more besides.
I'll give you my criteria and my solutions and I'm very interested in hearing your suggestions as well. The guy building the gun will be Phil Chiaravalle here on Kodiak Island and if the gun is successful it'll be his trademark rifle - The Kodiak Scout.

Criteria: Must be light, handy and fast shooting. Must handle a round thats appropriate for brown bear. (so far the Marlin guide gun fits the criteria).

Additional criteria: Must be capable of taking medium game at ranges of 300 yards. See, thats the stickler - A Co-Pilot is great until you want to go hunting in this open country and then you're screwed because your range is limited. We want a rifle thats truly versatile and does it all.

So far, this is what we've come up with. A short-action Browning BLR "Lightning" rebarreled to .350 Remington Magnum (.350 "fireplug" - same as Coopers Lion Scout). The Brown BLR is a magazine fed lever action. You can feed it spitzer bullets! Zeroed 2 inches high at 100 yards its but 9 inches low at 300. A credible 300 yard game getter.. With 250 grain bullets (Nosler Partitions or Failsafes of course!) it delivers more energy at 150 yards than the Co-Pilot does at the muzzle!

The BLR weighs 6 1/2 pounds. A decelerator pad and perhaps a muzzle brake will be added. Ghost ring sights and a forward mounted scout scope with quick detachable rings will complete the package.

What do you guys think? It seems to have it all, a mad browny at close range or a blacktail deer on the ridge line are in equal trouble.
This is a real rifle that will be made as Kodiaks answer to the Co-Pilot. Any input will be valued - I know theres a lot of knowledge and talent out there.


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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Looks like you guys have a great plan. Certainly, your combined rifle talents and knowledge are way beyond my input as a designer.. but as a possible customer, consider this:

I'd like to see any rifle that is supposed to "handy" chambered in a relatively common round. That is the reason I think the .376 Steyr version of the Scout Rifle is so out of place.. it is an oddball round in what is supposed to be a utilitarian weapon.

Is there another more common caliber that would suit the bill?

How does .338 Win Mag do up close with Brown Bears?

Have you considered a Semi-Auto? before I ended up getting a true Steyr Scout, I was going to have the following "super scout" built:

Browning BAR, chambered in .338 Win Mag, with a Christensen 16.25" Carbon Fibre Barrel. I was planning on quick release scope mounts for both "scout style" and traditional optics. and a back up Ghost Ring system.

This rifle wasn't going to be cheap, but neither is a Scout. You could save dollars and add wieght with a normal barrel.. maybe split the difference with some type of fluted barrel.
 
Light rifles are nice, however the effects of recoil seem to be cumulative.

I prefer my 9.3X74 OU, or my son's .450 Alaskan, or better yet my BAR in .375/338, with a 300 gr bullet at 2500fps. GLV
 
Rob,

I don't know of any big bore rounds that will fit into a short action except the .350 Remington Magnum.

If you edge up to a .338 or something in length, you then add pounds to the rifle - its no longer the handy carbine you started looking for. The BLR does come in a long action but its slower to fire (longer lever stroke), heavier, etc, etc.

Obviously Steyr ran into the same problem and created their own cartridge. I'm not even sure if Remington still makes the .350 - it may be a handloading proposition for potential customers.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
GLV,

Is your sons .450 Alaskan one of the old ones built from an old Winchester .348? Those are indeed fine rifles. The originals are extremely collectable.
My pal Phil is building some on the Browning reproductions. Awesome rifles. But no range to speak of - same problem as the guide gun. And the other rifles you mention are too heavy to really make a packing gun for bear protection.
We're hoping to bridge that gap with this rifle.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Understood, Keith. The BAR is not the lightest rifle around, but with the right stock and the Christensen Barrel it comes into the right range. And the fact that it is a semi makes up for any of the time factors of Long Action vs. Short Action.

As for the weight vs. recoil.. I don't ever remember recoil from a single hunting shot..So I don't consider it in a real factor in a practical arm.... though I have FELT it AFTERWARDS on occassion with a badly shouldered 12gauge 3in mag slug ;).

I would not be in the market for a weapon that practically required ammo to be handloaded.. but I suppose some people would be.
 
There is already a rifle that fits the picture except for big bore. It's called the Remington 7600. Shorten barrel and rebore to .35 Whelen, a factory cartridge. (Remington custom would probably do it for you.) It is FAST, and there are 10 rd mags available anywhere.

Added info: Remington 7600 synthetic stock version weighs less than the BLR and is significantly cheaper.

I know you plan to build your own action, but if that proves not so easy, consider pumping it.



[This message has been edited by Jim Keenan (edited April 03, 1999).]
 
What about the Savage 99 series. That was even made in a takedown version at one time. It was/is available in several calibers; .243, .308, .284 Win, 7mm-08 among others.
 
Rob,

Your .338 BAR with a Christiansen barrel would likely fill the bill. It would be a little heavier and a lot more expensive though. On the other hand, the reduced recoil and the wide availability of ammo would be a big plus.
I hadn't put a price limit as one of my criteria, but its certainly a factor (for me). This rifle has to compete on a price basis with other weapons. We're thinking we can put out a rifle for as low as $1200 with the basic mods to a BLR.


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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Yeah, I think we had figured on about $1900 for the .338.. a bit steep indeed.

(maybe next year ;)).

The 7600 is probably a great alternative to the leaver action too, if you are looking for one. I have a .30-06 760 that I've taken a few deer with, there are a handy rifle.
 
Jim,

Your Remington 7600 is a great idea - one that we looked at and discarded though. The 7600 is heavier than the BLR and the cost difference is negligible. The BLR comes in at about $530 and its aluminum reciever makes it at least a pound lighter than any other factory rifle out there.
The deciding factor was accuracy though. The 7600, for several reasons, is just not amenable to great accuracy. This was Phils input (I'm no gunsmith), something about the way the 7600 locks up and the way the barrel binds against the pump and forestock.
Great minds think alike though! The 7600 was a choice we debated at great length. I think that the 7600 in even a standard caliber like 30.06 would make an acceptable rifle for our purposes just as it comes off the shelf!
We're going to go a bit beyond the capabilities of the 7600 with the BLR though. It'll be lighter, shorter and more accurate.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Fal,

I hadn't thought about the Savage 99. I used to own one in .308, my first deer rifle. I wish I had it now!
The 99 has everything the BLR does except it weighs more. Steel receiver vs aluminum. If I could pick up a used 99 cheap, I'd use it if it could handle the additional pressure - I'd have to ask my buddy about that.
Phil is a big believer in the BLR system. It has a camming action and a rotary bolt that gives it a tighter and stronger lock up than any other lever action. It'll handle any round that'll fit into the action and the rigid lockup contributes to better accuracy.
Accuracy isn't everything though, if the rifle will shoot minute-of-caribou at 300 yards, what the hell?

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
If you insist on a .35 caliber, go with the 35 Whelen, which has identical ballistics to the .350 Rem Mag, but lacks the belted case problems, short neck, and other hassles. You can even get factory chow for it.
I have shot Jeff Cooper's "Lion Scout", and I was underwhelmed. It is a nice concept, but there are problems with the execution.

You can also move on up to the .358 Norma Mag, my personal favorite bear whacker. I would recommend going to a bolt gun for this though.
 
Mad Dog,

You're missing the essential criteria here - weight and handiness. Yes, there are all kinds of heavy rifles and cartridges out there but nothing I'd want to duel a brown bear with in the brush.
The .35 Whelen is a standard length cartridge and while it may have similar ballistics to the .350 Rem. Mag, you are still stuck with a longer action and heavier rifle.
The cartridge doesn't have to be a .35. it just has to fit the other criteria - stop 1500 pound bears, fit in a short action and be capable of taking other game out to 300 yards.
I've had the bear experience and I don't want to repeat it. I've got chunks missing in important places and scars all over my body. When bears attack its more like a tiger than the big clumsy bear we've seen ambling around salmon streams. They're unbelievably fast, so fast I couldn't get my rifle to my shoulder quick enough to get a shot off even though I figure she still had 15 yards to cover when I first saw her.
So, its got be a little carbine but I still want something that will be a decent long range hunting rifle.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan



[This message has been edited by Keith Rogan (edited April 03, 1999).]
 
Latest development - an entirely new action, the Remington model 7 action. A short action bolt gun has been proposed as the new home for the cartridge.
Sort of reinventing history since the .350 Rem. Mag was originally birthed in the now extinct Remington model 600, a very similar rifle.
I haven't had the pleasure of shooting a #7 - anyone know this rifle?

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Haven't shot a Reem 7 but the 600s are starting to show up in gunshows around here on a regular basis. Wouldn't want to get rid of mine though. I really like shooting it. Really useful in heavy cover too with the 18.5" barrel.
 
Keith,
Never handled a BLR before, but as memory serves, it's a "gear driven bolt" rack and pinion?
Seems you could modify the gear ratio to compensate for a long action? This would shorten the lever throw to something very tolerable and give you more room to play with where cartridge choice is concerned.
You could also offset the cumbersome weight difference with a smaller/shorter barrel profile without losing magazine capacity in this rifle.
just some early-morning-haven't-had-my-coffee-yet thoughts.

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Your mind is your primary weapon.
 
Keith,
Around here have seen asking prices starting from about$325 - $350 on up. The 660 goes for about the same or just a little less. The 660 was the no frills version produced after they quit making the 600. It had a plain barrel and stock instead of the 600 vent rib and pressed checkered stock.
See my e-mail to you Keith.
 
Keith,
I've done some guiding for brownies, as well as other Alaska game, and for my money, a Remington is the last rifle I'd take on a bear hunt. The only failures to feed I'v experienced have been in Remingtons, and the only failures to extract have been in Remingtons as well. I almost had a guy lose a dandy moose thanks to the tiny Remington extractor. Yes, there were extenuating weather conditions involved, but when aren't there when hunting in Alaska? I haven't handled a model 600 or 660 so I can't say if their extractor is the same.

BTW, what does your buddy charge for a .450 Alaskan on a Browning? Does he do the .500 as well?

Why not a .35/.284? The super-lite rifle guys have been making .284s for years, and since the .30/384 is ballistically identical to the .30-'06, you'd think the .35/.284 would be mighty close to a .35 Whelen.Just a thought.

[This message has been edited by Ipecac (edited April 06, 1999).]
 
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