Make no mistake Oregon is going to face this soon. Our election voted in every single anti gun senator except 1. We already voted down UBChecks prior election.... And every senator that supported that was voted back in this election..... Oregon gun owners failed as bad as Washington did......
The Big Washington I-594 Thread: Direct all questions and concerns here
- Thread starter JimDandy
- Start date
motorhead0922
New member
OK, there are a few problems here.
First, how does this "break apart the entire legislation?" The law's still going into effect. More to the point, it won't be effective at the time of the demonstration, so the actions of this group aren't really civil disobedience.
Second, how likely is it that onlookers are going to understand the point of the demonstration? They're just going to see a bunch of folks shuffling guns among themselves.
Third, the "no gun laws are constitutional" tack may be philosophically correct, but it runs counter to modern jurisprudence and public perception. Washington voters elected to pass I-594. That means they're not likely to be persuaded by unilateral, absolutist arguments.
The SAF and NRA are already drafting legal challenges. Let's leave this to folks who know what they're doing.
i594 non resident implications
I have a non resident Wa. CHL and travel them occasionally...
What I am wondering is what are, or are possible, implications for non residents lawfully traveling with guns in Wa. once the law takes effect?
One scenario is if while visiting the group decides to go someplace where guns are illegal, such as all bars in Washington regardless of CHL. So If I "leave" my gun at someones home, will that be an illegal transfer?
Another possible scenario is if while traveling say I get into an accident and must go to the hospital.... who takes the gun lawfully? Im assuming that as a non resident I'm still subject to transfers under state laws so I cant just unload it lock it for proper interstate travel and let my wife take it home, that would be a transfer.
I have a non resident Wa. CHL and travel them occasionally...
What I am wondering is what are, or are possible, implications for non residents lawfully traveling with guns in Wa. once the law takes effect?
One scenario is if while visiting the group decides to go someplace where guns are illegal, such as all bars in Washington regardless of CHL. So If I "leave" my gun at someones home, will that be an illegal transfer?
Another possible scenario is if while traveling say I get into an accident and must go to the hospital.... who takes the gun lawfully? Im assuming that as a non resident I'm still subject to transfers under state laws so I cant just unload it lock it for proper interstate travel and let my wife take it home, that would be a transfer.
RampantAndroid
New member
Koda, for scenario 1, leaving it another's house would likely be a transfer...and as such, illegal. It's one of the SERIOUS problems I have with this legislation. But what about another scenario: I'm carrying and need to enter an establishment where I cannot be armed (school, open carrying in a bank, courthouse, bar) and a friend is driving. If I leave the gun in his car, is THAT a transfer?
For the hospital issue - it's one I already posted a few pages back. There is no answer I know of yet. The rent-a-cops at hopsitals, as I understand things in the RCW, have no force of law, beyond things like being able to carry a folding baton otherwise illegal. 594 exempts law enforcement officers and corrections agencies. Neither of those two categories include private security people. So disarming at a hospital to receive care might well be a misdemeanor/felony.
But what about shipping a gun? Can I drop off my gun in a package to otherwise LEGALLY ship it using fedex 2nd day air? Or is that a transfer too? If I can't ship the firearm, am I able to sue the state for infringing on my 2A rights? It's the only way I've been able to figure out to get standing without ACTUALLY violating 594.
For the hospital issue - it's one I already posted a few pages back. There is no answer I know of yet. The rent-a-cops at hopsitals, as I understand things in the RCW, have no force of law, beyond things like being able to carry a folding baton otherwise illegal. 594 exempts law enforcement officers and corrections agencies. Neither of those two categories include private security people. So disarming at a hospital to receive care might well be a misdemeanor/felony.
But what about shipping a gun? Can I drop off my gun in a package to otherwise LEGALLY ship it using fedex 2nd day air? Or is that a transfer too? If I can't ship the firearm, am I able to sue the state for infringing on my 2A rights? It's the only way I've been able to figure out to get standing without ACTUALLY violating 594.
RampantAndroid, thanks for the help. I'm still scratching my head trying to understand it all.
Heres an interesting flow chart I came upon regarding 594. it includes citations to the relevant parts of the law. https://i.imgur.com/QLMj1Em.png
Heres an interesting flow chart I came upon regarding 594. it includes citations to the relevant parts of the law. https://i.imgur.com/QLMj1Em.png
Tackleberry1
Inactive
I am a WA resident and I will not comply with this new law.
I will continue to enjoy my guns AND my friends guns as I see fit... and I can not imagine any LE's in my state raising a finger to enforce this farce.
I will also put that to the test the next time I serve RSO duty at my gun club by making sure I fondle another members handgun in plain sight of one our many LEO members... Should be interesting.
Tack
I will continue to enjoy my guns AND my friends guns as I see fit... and I can not imagine any LE's in my state raising a finger to enforce this farce.
I will also put that to the test the next time I serve RSO duty at my gun club by making sure I fondle another members handgun in plain sight of one our many LEO members... Should be interesting.
Tack
carguychris
New member
Dealers in jeopardy...?
Another thing has been bugging me about the law, and I feel it deserves its own write-up.
My emphasis in boldface and notes in [brackets]:
Furthermore...
Hence...
Sec. 3(3)(d) says that the licensed dealer "...shall return the firearm to the seller or transferor", although it does NOT clearly address situations where this cannot be done because the seller or transferor failed the background check himself. A Form 4473 and NICS check are required under federal law before a firearm may be returned, as presumably known to anyone who has changed their mind about a consignment firearm and/or gotten a firearm out of hock. However, this puts Sec. 3(3)(d) in conflict with both federal law AND Sec. 3(3)(b), so this provision may be unenforceable.
Only Sec. 3(3)(e) is clearly discretionary, as it says that the dealer "may" charge a fee.
Here's the kicker:
AND...
If the dealer manages to keep his license after the misdemeanor conviction, the dealer potentially faces a FELONY charge for the SECOND paperwork violation.
Not sure I'd want to process these transactions if I were a WA FFL!!
Another thing has been bugging me about the law, and I feel it deserves its own write-up.
My emphasis in boldface and notes in [brackets]:
Note that the definition for "unlicensed person" clearly excludes a "licensed dealer", but the same is NOT true for the term "person" without the "unlicensed" qualifier.I-594 said:
Furthermore...
Sec. 3(2)(a) clearly implies that a "licensed dealer" is a "person".I-594 said:
Hence...
Sec. 3(3)(b) says that the "the licensed dealer shall comply with all requirements of federal and state law... including... fulfilling all federal and state recordkeeping requirements."I-594 said:
Sec. 3(3)(d) says that the licensed dealer "...shall return the firearm to the seller or transferor", although it does NOT clearly address situations where this cannot be done because the seller or transferor failed the background check himself. A Form 4473 and NICS check are required under federal law before a firearm may be returned, as presumably known to anyone who has changed their mind about a consignment firearm and/or gotten a firearm out of hock. However, this puts Sec. 3(3)(d) in conflict with both federal law AND Sec. 3(3)(b), so this provision may be unenforceable.
Only Sec. 3(3)(e) is clearly discretionary, as it says that the dealer "may" charge a fee.
Here's the kicker:
The law gives the Dept. of Licensing the authority to take away the dealer's license, and does not clearly prescribe the number of violations that must occur before this can happen.I-594 said:
AND...
The dealer is a "person", and Sec. 3 imposes duties on licensed dealers, thus a dealer could potentially be charged with a gross misdemeanor AND have his license taken away for the FIRST paperwork violation related to a private transfer. Although the dealer is entitled to a hearing before her license is revoked, and can contest the misdemeanor charge in court, the court costs are likely to be burdensome even if the case is ultimately dismissed.I-594 said:
If the dealer manages to keep his license after the misdemeanor conviction, the dealer potentially faces a FELONY charge for the SECOND paperwork violation.
Not sure I'd want to process these transactions if I were a WA FFL!!
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2ndsojourn
New member
From carguy:
"Not sure I'd want to process these transactions if I were a WA FFL!! "
That's an unintended consequence to the anti's benefit and agenda. Less, or no more, transfers. Legally anyway. And again, how can they enforce this for guns made prior to the new law?
"Not sure I'd want to process these transactions if I were a WA FFL!! "
That's an unintended consequence to the anti's benefit and agenda. Less, or no more, transfers.
Legally anyway. And again, how can they enforce this for guns made prior to the new law?Theohazard
New member
It's not necessarily unenforceable if the gun was made before the law takes effect, but only if its last transfer was before then. If the cops want to try and charge someone, they need to determine who actually owns the gun, and the only way to do that is to trace it back to the last dealer who sold it. If it's a handgun it's a little easier because the state gets involved and requires a separate handgun transfer form to be faxed to local law enforcement, so the state does have a record of each handgun sale by any dealer in the state.2ndsojourn said:
But if the last time the gun was officially transferred was before the law went into effect, then it's pretty hard to prove that the gun wasn't sold before I-594 required a background check and record of sale.
carguychris
New member
Theo, since you're in WA and you're presumably more familiar with the local laws than I am, what happens if someone brings a personal handgun from out-of-state?Theohazard said:
My understanding is that the state maintains a handgun PURCHASE database, but it's not a comprehensive and compulsive registry; please correct me if I'm wrong!
Theohazard
New member
Correct. When i moved to WA I brought my handguns and long guns and I didn't have to register them or anything; as soon as I arrived here they were legal.carguychris said:
When buying a long gun from a dealer there's no paperwork or records beyond the federal requirements (the 4473 and the FBI NICS check), but when buying a handgun from a dealer you also fill out a WA pistol form with all the information regarding that specific gun and the buyer's personal information, and that form is faxed to the buyer's local law enforcement agency (there's also a waiting period for a handgun if the buyer doesn't have a CPL, and during that waiting period the local law enforcement agency does the background check instead of the dealer doing it).
These state handgun transfer records aren't supposed to be used as a handgun registry, but I've talked to more than one LEO who said they do have access to a list of what handguns someone has bought in this state.
However, since -- until now -- private sales were legal and simply had to conform with federal law, there was no way to track guns that were privately sold, and there was no requirement for anyone to ever document information pertaining to a private sale.
TaildragginDave
Inactive
FFL 03?
As a Washington State resident, one question I have not been able to determine is: Do my C&R eligible purchases now have to go through an FFL 01 for a "background check"? I didn't see where I594 specifically addresses these types of transactions. As an aside, this election absolutely proved that when a group of the richest people on the planet want something, truth becomes meaningless.
As a Washington State resident, one question I have not been able to determine is: Do my C&R eligible purchases now have to go through an FFL 01 for a "background check"? I didn't see where I594 specifically addresses these types of transactions. As an aside, this election absolutely proved that when a group of the richest people on the planet want something, truth becomes meaningless.
It doesn't address them directly, but it doesn't exempt them either:
The problem is the requirement for a background check, which has to be done by a Type 1 or 2 FFL.
The question hadn't occurred to me until you raised it, but this does look like something that would invalidate the advantage of a C&R license in Washington.
kilimanjaro
New member
TDDave, I've been questioning C&R issues with this new law for some weeks. As far as I can tell, our FFL03s are now null and void, except for the requirements to log items in and out.
I don't recall seeing an exemption for antiques, either.
I would not want to be the FFL01 or 03 who ships a C&R to a 03 licensee and is found out to have done so.
I don't recall seeing an exemption for antiques, either.
I would not want to be the FFL01 or 03 who ships a C&R to a 03 licensee and is found out to have done so.
carguychris
New member
Re: C&R licensees...
As detailed in my prior post, a C&R licensee / 03 FFL / licensed collector is not permitted to "engage in... business" under federal law, and thus IMHO is not encompassed in the definition of "licensed dealer" under I-594.
However, I think there may be two minor caveats. To quote the first section of I-594 (my emphasis in boldface)...
This wording suggests that two specific types of transfer MAY be exempt from the UBC requirement:
I personally wouldn't engage in these types of transactions until the State of WA clarifies the status of an 03 FFL under I-594. More specifically, the viability of caveat #1 likely hinges on whether the WA AG and courts manage to apply the "in part" clause to a WA collector based simply on his state of residence and/or his physical location when the transaction is initiated, e.g. using his home computer to bid on GB. (I wouldn't want to be the test case. )
I addressed this issue in post #50, and unfortunately, I have to basically agree.kilimanjaro said:
As detailed in my prior post, a C&R licensee / 03 FFL / licensed collector is not permitted to "engage in... business" under federal law, and thus IMHO is not encompassed in the definition of "licensed dealer" under I-594.However, I think there may be two minor caveats. To quote the first section of I-594 (my emphasis in boldface)...
An interstate transfer of a C&R firearm to a licensed collector is not normally subject to a BC under federal law, although the recipient's state laws may require one. Furthermore, the quoted passage says that the law applies when the "...the purchaser or seller or transferee or transferor is in Washington...", and NOT necessarily if/when the relevant party RESIDES in WA.I-594 said:
This wording suggests that two specific types of transfer MAY be exempt from the UBC requirement:
- A lawful interstate C&R transfer, involving a licensed WA collector, that physically occurs entirely outside the boundaries of the state of WA. The UBC requirement would clearly apply to a mail-order sale in which the collector takes delivery in WA, but would not necessarily apply when a licensed WA collector personally takes possession of a C&R firearm in another state that lacks a local UBC requirement.
- A shipment from a licensed WA collector to a licensed collector in a state that does not impose a local UBC requirement; however, in this case, I believe that the I-594 requirement to "deliver the firearm to a licensed dealer to process the sale or transfer" will still apply to the WA collector on the originating end, so this caveat arguably doesn't do the WA collector much good, but at least the out-of-state recipient would not break WA law by taking possession without a BC.
I personally wouldn't engage in these types of transactions until the State of WA clarifies the status of an 03 FFL under I-594. More specifically, the viability of caveat #1 likely hinges on whether the WA AG and courts manage to apply the "in part" clause to a WA collector based simply on his state of residence and/or his physical location when the transaction is initiated, e.g. using his home computer to bid on GB. (I wouldn't want to be the test case.
)
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What really upset me about this law is I used to do most of my shooting in Washington. Now that it is illegal to hand a firearm to a friend, family member or my wife, I don't even want to go. How can people not see how ridiculous that is? How do you even get by that? You have to go to the range with guns you bought and only you can shoot them? Complete control over YOUR property.
carguychris
New member
Museums...
Another thing that's been bugging me... this law potentially makes it VERY cumbersome for a museum to display firearms, unless the organization uses impregnable display cases, they obtain an 01, 02, or 07 FFL, and they dutifully list every staffer with access to the keys as a "Responsible Person"- steps I can't imagine many museums taking, particularly on the small-scale community level.
Take note that the law's definition of "Antique"- discussed by Tom in post #117 and myself in post #50- is essentially the narrower NFA definition rather than the broader 68 GCA definition, and thus does NOT encompass pre-1899 fixed-cartridge firearms that accept commercially available ammunition.
Another thing that's been bugging me... this law potentially makes it VERY cumbersome for a museum to display firearms, unless the organization uses impregnable display cases, they obtain an 01, 02, or 07 FFL, and they dutifully list every staffer with access to the keys as a "Responsible Person"- steps I can't imagine many museums taking, particularly on the small-scale community level.
Take note that the law's definition of "Antique"- discussed by Tom in post #117 and myself in post #50- is essentially the narrower NFA definition rather than the broader 68 GCA definition, and thus does NOT encompass pre-1899 fixed-cartridge firearms that accept commercially available ammunition.
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