The Actual Guns of Littleton

J

Jeff Thomas

New member
Today's Wall Street Journal ('WSJ') had an article regarding the actual firearms used (haven't seen this elsewhere in the threads):

1. Intratec Firearms (Navegar, Inc.) Tec-9
2. Hi-Point Firearms Carbine - 9mm; please see www.hi-pointfirearms.com/
3. Mossberg shotgun (gauge not indicated)
4. Still unidentified shotgun

The 1994 Federal Crime Bill labeled the Tec-9 an assault pistol, and prohibited its manufacture. The Hi-Point Carbine, to my knowledge, is simply a semi-auto 9mm carbine with one nasty feature - a pistol grip.

Clearly, the initial reports were as usual - no automatic weapons in spite of the reports. Whether the shotguns were truly 'sawed-off' has not really been discussed yet, as far as I can tell. No discussion of magazine capacities.

The pistol and the carbine were obtained from Denver-area dealers, but otherwise no indication yet of how they fell into the hands of the BG's.

I don't present this information to minimize or mitigate the destruction these criminals caused. Nor to accept the absurdity that the firearms created the crime. I post this so that we can participate in understanding the true facts of this case, instead of the media hype.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited April 24, 1999).]
 
Jeff,

Thanks for the info. I was curious as to what was used, as well. I guess this indicates, once again, that anything (even POS') can be used to these ends. Too bad it was by the BG's. I have heard there were at least 30 pipe bombs placed, as well...
 
Let's see. Should we outlaw pipes? Probably not practical. What we need is proper training and licensing of plumbers to avoid the danger of pipes or parts of pipes from falling into the wrong hands. We must outlaw the large "assault" pipes, permitting only pipes with an inside diameter of 3/8" or less with (23,529 pages of government specifications follow).

So we use buckets. But buckets can be used as weapons so we must use only plastic, rubber, or other materials pre-approved by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms; Department of water-carrying devices......aiyeeeee, I'm loosing it!

(Quick! Tums & Shiner Bock!)
 
I am always curious about the weapons used in these things. It is odd that something like the Tec-9 would show up, isn't it?

I, for one, must admit that the *only* reason I can see for that gun being included in several criminal arsenals is the hype that it has recieved.

My wife heard an interview with a girl who was apparently about 5 feet from one fo the gunmen when he pointed his shotgun at her and pulled the trigger "click"... she said she watched him open the gun and reload (apparently this was the "double barrel" shotgun) and then he turned to shoot at someone else and walked off...
My wife couldn't believe that someone would not take the opportunity to tackle the guy, grab the gun, or otherwise try to fight for their life... Apparently the girl didn't even think to escape...

It is hard to understand that not one in 1900 people even tried to stop the gunmen.
 
Rob-

That was actually my first reaction. I can't imagine something like that happening directly infront of me and not trying to do something to stop it. Admitidly i've never been in the same situation but i thought "fight" and "flight" were about balanced in society.

-Poz
 
It is impossible for me to know how it felt to be pinned down in a classroom with madmen outside shooting people. And, I can't blame the innocent students of that high school for anything that they did or did not do--after all they are kids and this experience is quite out of the ordinary.

But... it also seems strange to me that no one tried to stop the shooters. Some kids heard the gunmen coming to their classroom and reacted by hiding under desks and tables. They hid there for a long time before the shooters finally came in and picked off a few of their number. I think I might have reacted to such a situation by finding some weapon in the room (e.g. a stick or heavy object), recruiting some friends to help, and waiting by the door to whack anyone who comes in. That seems better than hiding under non-bulletproof furniture.

Perhaps the entire story hasn't yet been told. I hope it turns out that some of the Littleton students did give self-defence a try. As I remember, another recent school shooting ended when a wounded student tackled the gunman when he stopped to reload.

Again, I cannot blame the innocent kids for anything they did or did not do.
 
The lesson here is that these kids were "normal" kids. They never thought about what they would do, at least for more than a fleeting moment. They never planned their response to an attack, they never thought it was possible. Therefore, when it happened, fear and shock made action impossible. I don't know you very well, but I would guess your reaction to this tragedy, like mine, has been to wonder and plan about what you would do (I'm a student teacher, so this is particularly true for me--ever try to plan unarmed defense of 25 children against 2 gunmen? It's not a long list of options . . . .) Therefore, hopefully, your reaction in the situation would be different.

But it's hardly their fault that they were left so helpless; they've been lied to all their lives, told that turning their lives over to Big Brother means they're safe. If you're safe, why bother planning? The only difference is, you and I know we're not safe.
 
Dear Gwinnydapooh,
Truer words were never spoken!!!
Self defense is as much software (mental preparation and attitude) as it is hardware.
 
Poplin...

Thank you for reminding me.

The father of the wounded Oregon student wore his NRA hat during all his interviews on the networks. As I recall one reporter made the mistake of asking him why he wore it, and the dad succinctly ripped the anti-gunners. :)

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
Gwinny and Willy-

Yeah, that IS a major point of contention. The difference between a "tac minded" person and a sheeple is startlingly large. But out of 1900 students? I find it hard to beleive that not a one decided to blindly rush them. Especially when reloading.

Poplin-

Your right about that, it's definatley not the innocent's fault.

-Poz
 
Just heard a blurb on the news that two of the weapons used were traced to an 18 yr. old friend of one of the shooters, who bought them from, of all things, a "Denver area gun show". Nothing else said, but many questions were raised.
How? What are the legal requirements for firearm purchases in CO? Was fake ID used? Was it actually a legal sale? Did a gun show dealer knowingly illegally sell a firearm? Were they purchased from a private individual instead?

That's what I hate about these damn sound bites. They make a statement, but give no real information, only ammunition for agenda-driven politicos to continue trying to ban gun shows.

------------------
Don LeHue

The pen is mightier than the sword...outside of arms reach. Modify radius accordingly for rifle.

[This message has been edited by DonL (edited April 26, 1999).]
 
A gun show link in the sales path is certainly possible, but personally I'll be a little suspicious considering the administration's current legislative goals.

I agree with the above posts regarding the kids being scared, ignorant and blameless. But, the adults in their lives were not blameless. Long before they reach age 18 both my kids will be familiar with various types of firearms. They will understand what those firearms can and cannot do. For example, when a double-barrelled shotgun is empty, it's empty. And, a human being with a gun is not Superman. He / she can be taken by surprise, stealth, and makeshift weapons if the need arises.

Just as others have posted, none of us can possibly guess what we would have done in such a nightmarish situation. However, considering how one could react in different self-defense scenarios is considered a basic rule of self-defense training, from what I've been taught. Teachers, school security guards and students should recognize they need to at least consider their alternatives. And, hiding under a desk is not preferable to lying in wait at the door. Our children must know that they have the ability to control their lives, their bodies and their minds until that ability is wrested from them.

We should always remember that the school shooting in Pearl, MS ended when the Vice Principal retrieved his personal handgun from the trunk of his car.
 
Laws in Colorado are pretty standard - licenced dealers need to run a FBI or CBI background check. Private parties need only be certain that the buyer is of legal age (18 for long guns, 21 for handguns). I've sold a few weapons at gunshows - put a sign on my backpack telling what I've got and how much I want, and people stop me to see it, banter, and maybe buy. Both times I did this, I ended up selling to a dealer - had it been a private party, I would have written down his ID info for my records.
 
In typically hysterical fashion, the media are referring to these four guns as an "arsenal." Whatever the precise definition of an arsenal may be, one rifle, one pistol, and two shotguns is hardly an "arsenal."
 
What you never hear is that they are prosecuting someone in conjunction with the sale. You hear veiled references to some sort of illegal transfer, but there is NEVER any discussion of punishment. If someone supplied weapons to these kids in an illegal fashion (what would be a legal fashion?) then they should do time. That is the message that should be stressed. Punish the guilty and leave the innocent alone.
 
I saw a piece by our "friends" at the Violence Policy Center that made the Tec-9 sound like a subgun. I checked out their website, and they had some seriously slanted descriptions of the weapons. Does anyone know if any of my tax dollars support them?
 
One is my friends is not a gun owner. He has a 20ga shotgun, a 1911 and a .22 bolt, as well as three bows.

My definition of arsenal is where you can't get to all of your ammo because of guns stored on top of it, where every corner of every room has three-four Enfields, Mausers or Henry-Martinis, not to mention Lebels, an M249 here and there and safes all over the place.

I know exactly one person whose house looks like that. He is also the most peaceful and softspoken and mellow of the gun owners I know. Hmmmm...

The people I am concerend about are the crazies who'd like to shoot all gun owners and don't even see the irony in their views. Arsenal a militant does not make. Consider the Mongol warriors, who have done more throat-cutting with a small bow and a saber than most of my friends have done or will ever do with belt-fed machine guns.

------------------
Cornered Rat
ddb.com/RKBA Updated March 20
"Turn in your guns, get a a free tattoo on your arm"
 
I've never been able to understand how so many could sit by and be slaughtered. Yet throughout history there are plently of examples of this. The warshaw getto uprising is a good example. Once they did start to fight back and to find out about guns, they were amazed and even horrified that the German guards's guns were not even loaded.
 
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