The .45 "Long" Colt........

I don't think I have ever heard of any of those terms before...

But, I THINK these are what you're talking about...

Spun cotton gathered on a stick.

Non-laid, low durability pulp paper product.

non-prescription acetasalasylic non-steroidal anti-inflamatory


:p
 
Smith & Wesson has an interesting way of addressing another cartridge. On the side of the barrel of my wife's nifty little 351C .22 Magnum snubbie is stamped ".22 M.R.F. Ctg." Never mind that all the ammo I buy for it says "22 WMR."

That's been a common trick in the firearms industry for well over 100 years.

That's interesting to know. Seems unnecessarily petty. I just checked the side of my Detective Special and it says, ".38 Special Ctg., " which supports your point and/or perhaps shows that the competitors gave up and agreed on 38 Spl. to stop confusing the public.

S&W calls it "MRF" because it is a 22 Magnum RimFire ctg which is specific enough, the ammo maker calls it that because Winchester developed it. Often you will see 270 240 and 30-30 refered to as "cal name" followed by "WCF" which stands for Winchester CenterFire because they developed these cals. S&W developed many cals and Colt refused to put the name "S&W" on their guns, because they didn't want to adverstise for their competitor or to cause people to think that they had to buy the ammo from Winchester or S&W or whatever. So if you look at the old Marlins, none are marked "38 WCF" or "30 WCF" but rather 38-40, 30-30, etc.

The guns marked "38 special" are not called such to stop confusing the public. S&W developed it, and many companies refuse to put S&W on it, so they call it "38 special" when it came out it was called "38 S&W special". The suffix "special" or "super" were pre-magnum terms for cartridges with extra power compared similiar cals. For example, a 38 special is more powerful than a 38 colt, and so they called it the 38 "special". The "magnum" term only arrived in 1935 with the 357 S&W MAGNUM. Allegedly it was coined that because one of the people involved with its initial production preferred to drink wine from a magnum glass, becuase it held more IE more powerful.
 
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There really was no ".45 S&W" as S&W never made a .45 revolver (up to the WWI era) except the Schofield and it was made for the .45 Government,

In his book Artistry in Arms, the Guns of Smith & Wesson (1991) by Roy Jinks, he states 884 commercial models were sold, and depicts a nickel plated Schofield. Packets of Frankford Arsenal ammunition are labeled simply ".45 Revovler." Packets of cartridges made by Union Metallic Cartridge Company are identified as ".45 S & W."

Bob Wright
 
I thought I was the troublemaker around here, Mr Bass (CajunBass, that is). I have thought for a long time that another reason it was called the .45 Long Colt was because there were other cartridges that came in short and long. There were the .32 short and long and .38 short and long. The .38 Long Colt was the army service cartridge for a while. In fact, I discovered two in a box of .38 S&W cartridges (which a certain army manual calls ".38 Regular"). I don't have them in front of me, so I don't remember the manufacturer. However, the are marked simply ".38 LONG." I trust Colt was not offended.

There were also some rifle cartridges from before the turn of the century that came in a long and even an extra-long variety, all for single shots, I believe.
 
"There were also some rifle cartridges from before the turn of the century that came in a long and even an extra-long variety, all for single shots, I believe."

More than that. Most of those were rimfires...

There was the .22 Short (plus the BB and CB caps), the .22 Long, the .22 Long Rifle, and .22 Extra Long, with the shorter cartridges being chamberable and fireable in longer chambers.

Then there was the .25 Stevens Short and the .25 Stevens.

.30 caliber is where it gets interesting...

The .30 Extra Short was a cartridge for the palm "Protector" pistol. Then there were the .30 Short, the .30 Long. Not sure if the Extra Short would chamber and fire in those.

There was a .32 Short, a .32 Long, a .32 Long Rifle, and a .32 Extra Long.

And it goes on from there up to .46 caliber.

There were similar, but fewer, rounds in center fire. Apparently the lack of enthusiasm for some of the rimfire rounds weeded the choices out.
 
Remington also referred to the cartridge as the .45 S&W
images


Given that the above ad mentions Kleenbore priming, it would appear that this particular advertisement was post 1929 or so when Remington began advertising centerfire ammunition with the Kleenbore priming system, and prior to 1940, when the .45 S&W was finally dropped from production for the run up to World War II.

Ah, someone at the site where I found that picture says that the last Remington catalog to show .45 S&W ammo was in 1937.

In fact, this is an interesting discussion: http://www.iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11411

Wow... and this one is gorgeous.

This box style, plus the wording on the box, would have probably put it between 1900 and 1910. The tax stamp is interesting because at one point in time a number of southern states taxed handgun ammunition, but not rifle ammunition. So, you'll occasionally see factory labels stuck on boxes of handgun ammunition stating "Rifle Cartridges." It was a way the manufacturer tried to get around the tax. Even if the box label showed a very distinct picture of a handgun.

45schofield1.jpg_thumbnail1.jpg
 
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does anyone know why the cylinder on a Ruger apparently is slightly longer than the one on a Smith Model 25?
S&W's "N" frame was originally designed back around 1906 for the shorter 44 Special cartridge. The frame window is large enough for standard loads but extra heavy bullet loads or bullets seated too far out will be too long.
Ruger designed their 45 Colt chambered guns from the start on their 44 Magnum frame, which itself has a larger frame window.

Jim
 
I will not only stand corrected on the term ".45 S&W" but will also offer a correction to my statement that S&W did not make another .45 revolver up to the .455 and .45 ACP Hand Ejectors. In fact, as is stated in the Neal and Jinks book, New Model No.3's were made on special order, not only in .45 Government (.45 Schofield) but also in .450, .45 Webley, .455 Mk I and .455 Mk II.

Also mentioned in that book is that S&W had plans around 1908-1909 to make a revolver for a cartridge developed by Frankford Arsenal. That would have been too early for the Model 1909 cartridges, which would have been too long anyway, but it would fit into the time frame of what was informally called the "Model 1906" cartridge, which was developed by the Ordnance Department for testing new revolvers. So it looks like S&W was going after another Army contract; if so they lost, because ultimately the Model 1909 (Colt New Service) revolver was adopted for use until an acceptable auto pistol was found.

Jim
 
but it would fit into the time frame of what was informally called the "Model 1906" cartridge, which was developed by the Ordnance Department for testing new revolvers.



There were two M1906 cartridges, one for revolvers, one for autoloaders, that any handgun had to chamber for further consideration by the Army.

Both of these are rare and have escaped my grasp for my collection.

Bob Wright
 
I forgot: there was also the .41 Long Colt, too, and presumably the .41 Short, not to mention the .41 rimfire as used in the Remington double derringer. Many have mentioned that a lot of the older cartridges disappeared by the time WWII was over and with the ammunition gone, the older guns because more or less useless for actual shooting. Skelton mentions converting .41 Colt Single Actions to another chambering with a new barrel and cylinder.
 
Hi, Bob, I was thinking of the Model 1906 revolver round, which would have been the one S&W was interested in. I would guess it was made short enough (shorter than the .45 Government/Schofield) to fit any reasonable length cylinder. I would like to know more about those tests and the selection, but I can't find any real info on that period, and not much on the M1909 revolver itself.

Some folks say it was never adopted at all, just some purchased until the M1911 was ready, but that seems contradicted by the formal adoption, assignment of a model number, development and production of special ammunition, adoption of a holster, etc. IMHO, the folks who adopted the M1909 assumed it would be in for the long haul, since no one at that time knew when, or even if, a satisfactory pistol would be found. The way that seemingly interminable testing was going, the new auto pistol might be the Model of 2011.

Jim
 
Jim,

I can't find much on the M1906 rounds. Both the revolver and auto pistol rounds were pretty much similar, except for the rim for the revolver and extractor cannelure for the rimless cartridge. Both had 234 gr. jacketed bullets, and length of approximately .911" case length.

Suydam alludes to the fact some Colt revolvers were made for the revolver and tried in the Phillippines. Also Colt, Smith & Wesson and Webley-Fosberry revolvers are known to exist.

As to the M1909 round, I have one specimen dated Dec. 1913 (h/s F A 12 13) and understand it was loaded until 1915, so the Colts must have been in use up until about that time.

Incidentally I have a government contract (REM-UMC) .38 Long Colt dated 1918, others from Frankford Arsenal dated 1911.

Bob Wright

Bob Wright
 
The History of Modern U.S. Military Small Arms Ammunition (an accurate title but a mouthful) says the last production order to Frankford for M1909 cartridges, never made anywhere else, was for two million rounds* dated April, 1915, but that it might it not have been completed and that no specimen has been seen dated later than 12 13**. I have seen reports that M1909 revolvers were used in WWI for guard duty in the U.S. There have been claims that they were also sent overseas, but I think that unlikely because of the ammunition problem. There is also possibility of confusion with the Colt M1917, which is the same basic gun as the M1909, the Colt New Service.

Of course the M1909 could have been issued and used with .45 Colt commercial ammunition for stateside duty; the potential extraction problem would be less important than the need to get guns to those who might need them.

As to .38 Long Colt, the book says this: "In late 1917, production of .45 caliber pistols was insufficient... and the Cal .38 revolver and cartridge were forced into service ... restricted to National Guard use in the U.S. and to rear areas overseas." Ammunition "contracts were let to two firms, Winchester (1,030,000 rounds) and Remington (8,950,000 rounds)." The Winchester contract was cancelled without deliveries, but Remington completed their share. Those rounds are marked REM-UMC 18; some have the "U" on the primer. The load was a 148 grain lead RN bullet ahead of 3 grains of Bullseye, giving a MV of 755 fps at 15,000 psi. Since that is in the target wadcutter range, apparently they didn't want to shoot anybody very hard.


* A small order for Frankford. Just FWIW, their WWII production of .30 caliber ammunition, from late 1941 to early 1945 was 1.1 million rounds - per day.
** Neat coincidence, I have a specimen dated 12 13 also.

Jim
 
This doesn't qualify as braggin' rights, since it wasn't me, but my daddy was the commanding officer of Frankford Arsenal at the end of WWII. Had one cool-ass house, from what I was told - there was a button under the carpet at my mom's end of the dining room table that she would press to ring a bell in the kitchen. Surely that must qualify me as a gen-yoo-wine old fart. Which is all I claim to be, other than a decent shot.
 
I think it is reasonable to believe some of the older .38 army revolvers may have been sent overseas, if it was thought they could be spared. The British manufactured a huge variety of ammunition, including most contemporary American cartridges. In fact, up into the 1950s reference books generally had a separate listing of English cartridges. One lists a .450 revolver but I'm not sure what it is. It also lists a .380 revolver as well as a .380 Long, which was a rifle cartridge. In any case, there probably wouldn't have been an ammunition problem. Colt .45 autos were even sold in Briitain, including some in .455 Webley Self-Loading.

To return to the original subject, can a .455 Webley revolver cartridge be used in a revolver chambered for .45 Colt?
 
I also meant to ask if there were (new) revolvers available on the civilian market after the .38 special came out? None are listed in the 1940 Shooter's Bible, although there are lots of models in .38 S&W. There were many Iver Johnsons listed as available also in .32 Special, whatever that is. However, the only .45 Colt revolvers were Colts, including the New Service, New Service Target, the Shooting Master and the Single Action Army. S&W didn't have one in that caliber, the closest one being the 1917 in .45 ACP.
 
It also lists a .380 revolver

My guess is the ".380 Revolver" was the Enfield no2 Mk1, also made by Albion Motors, and Coventry Guage...

British designation for the war time cartridge was .380/200...AKA .38 S&W...
 
That could be but they also listed separately the .38-200 or .380 Mk. 1 (for Mark IV Revolver). That's the actual listing. But they also list the .38 S&W as well as the .38 Colt Police Positive Revolver. That's just the cartridge listing.

It doesn't follow that any of these British cartridges were widely available anywhere in the United States, especially since American manufacturers would be making anything they could sell here. Moreover, this was from a 1940 catalog and it is doubtful if British factories were exporting much ammunition for civilian consumption.

The British cut back on sporting ammuntion a lot after the war and all those white hunters in Africa using expensive British doubles had a time getting ammunition. That was around when the big bore Winchesters became popular.
 
The .380 round being talked about was probably the .380 revolver. It was an older british round and may have been a direct influence on the .38 Long.

It was loaded here for a number of years.
 
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