The .45 Auto Rim is now obsolete?
- Thread starter jski
- Start date
Just to confuse things still further, the .45 AR is a good case for use in guns made for the .455 Webley and some other cartridges IF part of the rim is trimmed away at the FRONT, leaving a rim of normal thickness. Now that we have a case available that is the correct diameter and an almost normal revolver rim (diameter a bit too small for really reliable extraction) AR cases will not be necessary.
Jim
Jim
disseminator
New member
I made a comment to a Cowboy shooting buddy of mine that the loads they were shooting at steel sounded kind of "light", he said if you think these are light hang around a while I think some of these guys don't even add any powder to their loads.
They sounded like someone throwing a rock at the steel.
Driftwood Johnson
New member
No, I do not. The only revolvers I have chambered for 45 ACP are three S&W Model 1917s and my Model 1955 Target. These all have the standard extra .030 behind the cylinder, and if your 625 is chambered for 45 ACP it will too. If you crimp with a roll crimp you will not get the 45 CS to seat properly in a 45 ACP chamber. A roll crimp will not seat properly against the 90 degree ledge in a 45 ACP chamber. If you use a taper crimp, you might get the round to headspace on the case mouth, but that is not how the 45CS is designed. It is meant to headspace on the rim just like any other revolver cartridge. If you get it to headspace on the case mouth, the rim will be standing .030 proud of the rear of the cylinder. This may or may not cause a problem, but it is certainly not the way the 45CS was conceived in the first place.
Regarding the original configuration of moon clips, yes, they were half moon clips. Here is one of my 1917s (made in 1918) along with a box of ammo also made in 1918.
Mike Irwin
Staff
I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think that full moon clips came onto the US market until after World War II.
I laugh at the notion of these "super light loads" and it is one of the many reasons I quite cowboy shooting many years ago. In my mind the cowboy, gunfighter, western lawman etc use the most powerful handgun they could afford.
I used a pair of original model Ruger Vaquero's in 44 magnum. I loaded 240 grain LSWC's to the SASS max velocity (1000 fps). I was constantly chided that I could shoot faster if I ran light loads, rifle targets I could spit on from the firing line.
In the SASS rule book they have a catch all phrase " Spirit of the game" if your loads are as weak as many I saw, to me that is the clearest indication of spirit of the game and "gaming" as I have ever seen. It evolved away from a sport and into a costume party equipment race a long time ago.
45 short..... No thanks, besides I doubt they will feed in a 45 Colt lever gun.
I used a pair of original model Ruger Vaquero's in 44 magnum. I loaded 240 grain LSWC's to the SASS max velocity (1000 fps). I was constantly chided that I could shoot faster if I ran light loads, rifle targets I could spit on from the firing line.
In the SASS rule book they have a catch all phrase " Spirit of the game" if your loads are as weak as many I saw, to me that is the clearest indication of spirit of the game and "gaming" as I have ever seen. It evolved away from a sport and into a costume party equipment race a long time ago.
45 short..... No thanks, besides I doubt they will feed in a 45 Colt lever gun.
Driftwood Johnson
New member
Believe it or not, there are some of us who march to a different drummer. I have been using nothing but cartridges stuffed to the gills with Black Powder in CAS for years now. I don't give a hoot how fast I shoot, I enjoy blasting away at targets and ducking and weaving so I can see the targets through the smoke.
I never win any prizes but I have a lot of fun.
In the beginning, Cowboy Action shooting was fun. The people were friendly, and the attitude was "shoot something that is, or looks Old West-ish, and wear a cowboy hat. And, we'll lend you the hat if you don't have your own".
Along come the gamesmen, with their new rules, and that changed pretty quickly.
Can't shoot my Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt, they say. (ok can shoot it in "modern class, only)
Why not, its an 1873 round!!
Sorry, no, your gun has adjustable sights! Modern class only!!
What if I promise not to adjust the sights??
still "No!"
can't shoot my Ruger No.3 .45-70
Why not its an 1873 round!
sorry, your gun doesn't have a hammer! Modern class only (or go home)
And that was just the beginning.
Today it's barking ridiculous. There's a huge double standard.
They exclude guns that aren't "traditional" (or traditional enough to satisfy them) and at the same time allow (or even encourage) calibers and loads that not only aren't traditional, but would have been sneered at by any cowboy who actually might have to use the gun for a real purpose.
180gr @ 475fps! Wow!! I am impressed!
Gamesmen took the Practical out of IPSC, and the "Stock cars" that they race these days aren't even remotely "stock". Shooting uber light loads (including .38 special wadcutters) is kind of like using the cheat codes in video games, to me. Double standard big time.
Won't allow a Blackhawk, because of the sights (too "modern"), but will allow a .38 Special (which didn't exist until 1902), won't allow a 9mm Luger (which ALSO didn't exist until 1902).
Upper velocity limit, too much power is baaaadd, but cat sneeze loads are just fine. Accuracy needed? not much, all you have to do is hit the target, somewhere...
I think cowboy shooting would benefit from a "mad cow" or Stampede event. Set up a popper or falling plate type target, one that needs a certain amount of momentum, in the right spot, to be knocked over. One where the force needed can be met by all the standard loads from period cartridges, but not by the 'cat sneeze" light loads. You have to stop that charging cow, or be trampled. To do it, you need enough power, in the right place, not just any hit in any place.
And make it a pass/fail thing. Like, you have to drop the steer within a time period (like how fast a running cow will cover the 15yds or whatever the distance is from it to you), not the fastest guy to drop it wins, but everyone who fails to stop it in time loses. That's a real world situation a cowboy might face, but the gamesmen will hate it. Claim "tis not fair!!" etc.
800lbs of scared cow doesn't care about "fair".
I can see a use for the .45 Special (though not one that applies to me), but I don't see a NEED for it. After all, .45 Colt brass + case trimmer+a little effort = .45 "special" short brass.
180gr bullet at 475fps??? I'd be afraid that if I shot a rat with that, the rat would catch the bullet and throw it back at me, FASTER than I shot it!
Along come the gamesmen, with their new rules, and that changed pretty quickly.
Can't shoot my Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt, they say. (ok can shoot it in "modern class, only)
Why not, its an 1873 round!!
Sorry, no, your gun has adjustable sights! Modern class only!!
What if I promise not to adjust the sights??
still "No!"
can't shoot my Ruger No.3 .45-70
Why not its an 1873 round!
sorry, your gun doesn't have a hammer! Modern class only (or go home)
And that was just the beginning.
Today it's barking ridiculous. There's a huge double standard.
They exclude guns that aren't "traditional" (or traditional enough to satisfy them) and at the same time allow (or even encourage) calibers and loads that not only aren't traditional, but would have been sneered at by any cowboy who actually might have to use the gun for a real purpose.
180gr @ 475fps! Wow!! I am impressed!
Gamesmen took the Practical out of IPSC, and the "Stock cars" that they race these days aren't even remotely "stock". Shooting uber light loads (including .38 special wadcutters) is kind of like using the cheat codes in video games, to me. Double standard big time.
Won't allow a Blackhawk, because of the sights (too "modern"), but will allow a .38 Special (which didn't exist until 1902), won't allow a 9mm Luger (which ALSO didn't exist until 1902).
Upper velocity limit, too much power is baaaadd, but cat sneeze loads are just fine. Accuracy needed? not much, all you have to do is hit the target, somewhere...
I think cowboy shooting would benefit from a "mad cow" or Stampede event. Set up a popper or falling plate type target, one that needs a certain amount of momentum, in the right spot, to be knocked over. One where the force needed can be met by all the standard loads from period cartridges, but not by the 'cat sneeze" light loads. You have to stop that charging cow, or be trampled. To do it, you need enough power, in the right place, not just any hit in any place.
And make it a pass/fail thing. Like, you have to drop the steer within a time period (like how fast a running cow will cover the 15yds or whatever the distance is from it to you), not the fastest guy to drop it wins, but everyone who fails to stop it in time loses. That's a real world situation a cowboy might face, but the gamesmen will hate it. Claim "tis not fair!!" etc.
800lbs of scared cow doesn't care about "fair".
I can see a use for the .45 Special (though not one that applies to me), but I don't see a NEED for it. After all, .45 Colt brass + case trimmer+a little effort = .45 "special" short brass.
180gr bullet at 475fps??? I'd be afraid that if I shot a rat with that, the rat would catch the bullet and throw it back at me, FASTER than I shot it!
muzzleblast...
New member
Originally it was the half moon clip, done up for WWI. You did not need them, and still don't, to fire the 45 acp round from a revolver. The firing pin reached the primer. They made ejection more reliable though and so the military wanted them. They were also a very good "tactical reloading" tool. The shooter could remove three spent cases at a time and quickly replace them with live ammo.
In 1975 a company called "Ranch Products" began manufacturing a 2 round clip for the 45acp. The idea was to allow for more versatility for the "tactical reload". No one back then talked about "tactical" equipment or reloads, we called it a "combat reload", by the way. That was when specifically you only needed to replace a couple of spent cases to have a full cylinder.
In 1982-83 Ranch Products came out with the full moon clip. It was that late. It was in response to the rise of the "combat" oriented shooting sports where fast reloads were required. They are credited with being the first. Many other makers today.
http://www.ranchproducts.com/about.html
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/8/19/moon-clips-for-revolver-rounds/
tipoc
Mike Irwin
Staff
Yep, familiar with the half moon clip's history. Didn't think that the full moon came out that late.
I've not seen a third moon clip in years.
I prefer the RIMZ clips by Beckham products. Polymer.
But, not all 1917s will fire unclipped ammo.
Some early Colt 1917s, and possibly a few S&Ws, had straight bored cylinders.
I've not seen a third moon clip in years.
I prefer the RIMZ clips by Beckham products. Polymer.
But, not all 1917s will fire unclipped ammo.
Some early Colt 1917s, and possibly a few S&Ws, had straight bored cylinders.
If you mean the little 2 rnd clips, I have a dozen or so, they work in my Webley Mk VI. Never knew the proper name for them, I thought Quarter Moon clip might be appropriate, but that's just what I called them. Got them with a bunch of half moon clips (3 rnd, metal, I think S&W).
The story I heard (and of course, today who can really say what really happened) was that since the contract didn't specify, Colt just bored the first guns straight through, which, of course meant the guns could only be used with the clips.
When S&W heard this they thought it was a stupid idea, and that THEY made their guns properly, and apparently weren't too shy about telling people so. Colt, very quietly, then cut the headspace ledge into the chambers of the rest of their production runs.
OR so the story was told to me..
I'm in a very minority place, when it comes to .45ACP in revolvers w/clips.
My DA "clip gun" isn't a S&W or a Colt, its a "shaved" Webley. AND, its a just barely shaved Webley. Some half moon clips work, some don't, every full moon clip I tried was too thick, and so is the .45 Auto Rim rim!!!
The .45 Special case might be just the ticket for my Webley, but since it does work with the ACP cases and the clips I already have, I'll not be buying a box of new .45 Cowboy/ Special brass just to find out.