The .45 Auto Rim is now obsolete?

jski

New member
Just noticed this offering from Starline brass:
45 Cowboy Special (Large Pistol primer)
100_-1_cowboy-45-spl-website.jpg

Cowboy 45 Special, 45 SPL, C45S
0.892 - 0.896 O.A.L.

The Cowboy .45 Special is a case that is optimized for use with light loads in .45 Colt caliber revolvers for Cowboy Action Shooting. Light loads with excessive airspace are a recipe for case splits and erratic function. By using the Cowboy .45 Special case, with its .45 Colt rim and .45 Auto length, the problem no longer exists. While many claim that .45 Auto load data can be used in this caliber, it is important to realize the limitations of the firearm it is chambered in and only use loads that fall within the pressure range of that firearm. Generally these can be loaded using .45 Colt dies and a modified (shortened) crimp die, or .45 Auto Rim roll crimp die.
I had been looking for a shorter .45 Colt case for my S&W Mountain Gun but the .45AR has too thick a rim to work.

I know there are the S&W .45ACP revolvers the can load AR cases but why bother? Don't most S&W 625 owners like the full moon clip?
 
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I'm unclear what you're asking. The 45 AR (Auto Rim) is a 45 acp case meant for revolvers chambered in 45acp. 45 AR has a rim which allows the star ejector of the revolver to eject the cases. The 45acp is a "rimless" case which was designed to fit in semis. So when the military needed 45 acp revolvers half moon clips were developed to enable the ejector to eject the cases easily.

The 45 Cowboy Special is a shorter version of the 45 Long Colt meant for Cowboy action shooting with light loads from sa revolvers, as the ad states. The rim may be too thick for da revolvers. It's not meant as a replacement for the 45 AR.

Not all folks who shoot 45acp from a wheelgun like moon clips. Which was why the 45 AR was born decades back. Starline makes new brass for the 45 AR, some others as well. It's not obsolete, just not real common.

tipoc
 
I think this piece from an article about Starline's "new" brass answers some of your questions:
The .45 Colt cartridge has been with us since the 1870s, when it was introduced with the new Peacemaker Colt Army revolver. That was the heyday of blackpowder and the new round had room for plenty of it. As a modern round with modern powders, the .45 Colt’s case capacity is excessive. Cowboy Action Shooting demands low velocities and lead bullets, which is no challenge for a competent handloader. Still, it would be make for more efficient reloading if the case was shorter. Understand that the old Long Colt is probably the most popular round in the game, both in replica and Colt SAAs, as well as many lever guns. So what can you find for shorter brass?

The .45 Auto Rim might seem like a good idea. It is a short, rimmed cartridge designed for revolver cylinders chambered for the .45 ACP-like the 300,000 Colt and S&W 1917s of World War I On this one, the rim is extra-thick to equal the ACP rim thickness, plus the additional thickness of the moon clip for which the guns were designed. The Auto Rim works to perfection in DA/SA revolvers chambered for ACP, but won’t work in SAA revolvers chambered for either the ACP or Long Colt.

How about the short round with a .45 Colt rim? That’s the .45 S&W, which is sometimes called the .45 Schofield or-infrequently-the .45 Short Colt. Built to equal the original performance of the .45 Colt in the shorter-cylindered Schofield revolvers, this cartridge was dormant for decades. The SASS people brought it back to life for their modern shooting sport. I would have bet that this would be the solution, but I was wrong. It turns out the .45 Schofield is a perfect fit in length for what we are seeking, but the rim is shaped to be incompatible with some of the guns guys are using in the Cowboy shoots.

For these reasons, we are about to get a .45 ACP-length, rimmed brass that will run through just about anything chambered for the .45 Colt. For shooters using S&W revolvers chambered for the Colt, this round makes an efficient option for custom loading. It might also be a functional option for use in some of those troublesome .45 Colt lever guns. It’s going to be fun to see how it all shakes out.

45cowboyspecial_web.jpg
 
The .45 Auto Rim has, as loaded ammo, was last loaded by one of the big three (Federal, Winchester, Remington) back in the early 1990s.

Since then Starline has been offering brass and other, smaller, ammo companies have loaded the rounds.

The round you show is VERY different from the .45 Auto Rim, though, in that it has the rim thickness of the .45 Colt round, while the .45 Auto Rim case has a much thicker rim due to the headspace required when .45 Auto cases are used with clips.

Peters introduced the .45 Auto Rim cartridge in 1920 when Smith and Colt M1917 revolvers hit the surplus market. Military half moon clipped ammunition wasn't readily available, and it was almost impossible to unclip empty cases without destroying the clip.
 
Most of the revolvers that would/could use the .45AR are either obsolete or the owners would rather use the .45ACP + moon clip.

But that .45 Special is just what the doctor ordered for .45 Colt & .45 Schofield shooters.

The biggest advocate for the .45AR is Mike “Duke” Venturino of American Handgunner fame. But I think the .45 Special undercuts his whole argument, which is based a case capacity ... the .45 Colt has too much.
 
The biggest advocate for the .45AR is Mike “Duke” Venturino of American Handgunner fame. But I think the .45 Special undercuts his whole argument, which is based a case capacity.

The 45 Auto Rim is intended for 45 acp revolvers, like the S&W M25 and 625 and the Colt and S&W M1917 in 45 acp. Those revolvers are not obsulete and 45 acp revolvers are quite common today.

The 45 Special is intended for single action revolvers like the Colt Single Action, Ruger Vaquero and the Ruger Blackhawk. It was specifically developed for CAS shooting. This round will not chamber in the DA wheelguns. The 45 Special is not a substitute for the 45 AR.

Venturino likes the 45 AR and argues for it. The 45 Special does not compete with it as it's purpose is different.

Yes most shooters of 45 acp wheelguns prefer full moon clips. But not all, as you mentioned. The 45 AR has it's advocates.

tipoc
 
I had been looking for a shorter .45 Colt case for my S&W Mountain Gun but the .45AR has too thick a rim to work.

.45 Colt brass + case trimmer + a little effort = shorter .45 Colt brass. :D
BUT, how are you going to crimp them???? You're going to need a die that will do it, either a cut off .45 Colt die, or one of the old .45acp seater dies with a roll crimp built into it.

How about the short round with a .45 Colt rim? That’s the .45 S&W, which is sometimes called the .45 Schofield or-infrequently-the .45 Short Colt. Built to equal the original performance of the .45 Colt in the shorter-cylindered Schofield revolvers, this cartridge was dormant for decades.

The round was also known as the .45 Government, and was the bulk of the ammo bought and supplied to Army troops, after the adoption of the Schofield revolver. It was NEVER made to "equal the original performance of the .45 Colt", because it simply cannot do so.

The original .45 Schofield loading uses slightly less than 3/4 the powder of the .45 Colt (29gr vs. 40gr) and a 10% lighter bullet (230gr vs. 255gr). This is NOT EQUAL!!!!

What the .45 Schofield did do was meet the Army's "good enough" specification, (which the .45 Colt exceeded), and so was adopted for use in BOTH the Schofield and Colt SAA revolvers.

This is probably the origin of the use of the name ".45 Long Colt" for the .45 Colt round. I think it quite likely that when a trooper went to the supply clerk for .45 ammo, he would most likely get .45 Govt (.45 Schofield) ammo, unless he specified ".45 Long, for the Colt revolver". I think that, over time, the .45 Colt ammo might have been stocked as ".45 Long, (comma) Colt, which over time turned into ".45 Long Colt" just my pet theory, but it fits the facts...

Now, back to the new .45 "Cowboy" case...

FORGET about using it as a replacement for .45 Auto Rim brass. IF your gun is even close to being in spec for its .45acp chamber, the .45 Cowboy brass WILL NOT FIT! (despite being the right length). Its the WIDTH of the round (the case body, not the rim) that is too large.

Despite being generally thought of as a straight case, the .45ACP has a very slight taper. It specs 0.473" at the case mouth, and 0.476" at the case head, and 0.480" diameter of the case rim.

The .45 Colt (and Schofield, and .45 Cowboy) are straight cases, which spec 0.480" at the case mouth. This makes them too WIDE (case diameter) to enter an in spec .45ACP chamber.

.45ACP fits in a .45 Colt chamber because the ACP case is smaller in diameter than the .45 Colt round. The reverse is NOT true.
 
"...in .455 revolvers..." Rim diameter's different. .455 Webley's is .530". The .45 Colt and hence the .45 Special's, is .512". The Colt's rim thickness is 60 thou vs the 39 thou for the Webley.
The Auto-Rim is just an ACP with a rim. .516" diameter. 90 thou thick. .898" case length. It has nothing to do with the .45 Colt. So it shouldn't fit your S&W Mountain Gun.
"...will not chamber in the DA wheel guns..." Will in a .45 Colt like a New Service. Or a Redhawk. Or a 625.
 
Gee whillikers. I guess I can no longer use .45AR in my M1917s (Colt and Smith) or the Smith and Wesson 1955 Target. I mean, being obsolete and all. Must have a thousand or so loaded and empty cases.
Drat it all.
 
I just posted all of this over at the High Road, so I am pasting it in here.

Left to right in this photo the cartridges are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy Special, 45 Auto Rim, and 45 ACP. Not immediately obvious in this photo, but the 45 Schofield rim is larger in diameter than the 45 Colt or 45 CS rim. SAMMI standard for the 45 Colt rim diameter is .512. That is the same rim diameter as the 45 CS. However, because the 45 Schofield round was designed to be extracted by the extractor star of the Schofield revolver, the rim diameter for the Schofield round is .520.

45C45Sc45CowboySP45AR45ACP.jpg





How about the short round with a .45 Colt rim? That’s the .45 S&W, which is sometimes called the .45 Schofield or-infrequently-the .45 Short Colt. Built to equal the original performance of the .45 Colt in the shorter-cylindered Schofield revolvers, this cartridge was dormant for decades. The SASS people brought it back to life for their modern shooting sport. I would have bet that this would be the solution, but I was wrong. It turns out the .45 Schofield is a perfect fit in length for what we are seeking, but the rim is shaped to be incompatible with some of the guns guys are using in the Cowboy shoots.


There are two inaccuracies in this statement. The 45 Schofield cartridge did not equal the performance of the 45 Colt cartridge. It couldn't. The reason S&W developed the Schofield cartridge was their tooling was set up for cylinders 1 7/16" long. They were in the midst of the Russian contracts, and the 44 Russian cartridge only needed a cylinder 1 7/16" long. When S&W bid on a contract to supply the Army with revolvers, competing with Colt, the Army specified that the revolvers must be 45 caliber. Opening up the chambers and the bores from 44 to 45 was no big problem, but the 45 Colt cartridge was too long to fit into a 1 7/16" cylinder. Rather than change their tooling in the middle of the lucrative Russian contract, S&W proposed an alternative cartridge, not too long to fit into a 1 7/16" cylinder. The 45 Schofield cartridge was the result. Black Powder cartridges are stuffed completely full of powder, unlike Smokeless cartridges there is never any empty airspace. The relative size of a Black Powder cartridge is a reasonably accurate comparison of how powerful it is. The 45 Colt originally held 40 grains of Black Powder under a 250 grain bullet. This was later reduced to 30 grains in the cartridges supplied to the military, with cardboard wadding taking up the empty space. The charge in the 45 Schofield cartridge was about 28 grains of Black Powder under a 235 grain bullet. Clearly, not as powerful as the original 45 Colt design, and slightly less powerful than the military 45 colt cartridge.

Regarding the rim being incompatible with revolvers used in CAS, again, not true. In almost every case, the extra diameter of the 45 Schofield cartridge does not prevent it seating properly in a 45 Colt revolver. Trust me on this, I have shot Schofield rounds in Colts, Ubertis, and an original Schofield. The only case I am aware of, is an 'original model' Vaquero of mine. One chamber, and one chamber only, does not have quite enough clearance for a 45 Schofield cartridge to seat completely. About five minutes with a file took care of that.

Regarding the 45 Cowboy Special, it is not a new round. It first appeared probably close to ten years ago. It was the brainchild of a Cowboy shooter, and as has been stated, the idea behind it was to make for a more efficient round when loaded lightly than the 45 Colt. When loaded lightly with Smokeless powder, the large volume of empty airspace in the 45 Colt can make ignition spotty and the burn can be inefficient. Reducing the extra air volume in the case makes for a much more efficient burn. Anyway, the inventor of the round contracted with a brass manufacturer, I do not know who, to produce a production run of the brass, and he was the exclusive seller of the brass. After a while, because of health problems he got out of the brass business, selling the rights to make the brass to another shooter. Then there followed a few years when for several reasons the brass was hard to come by and very expensive. Finally, Starline started producing the brass, I have to guess they bought the rights to it from the latest owner. That is why we are now seeing the 45 Cowboy Special brass being marketed by Starline.

And by the way, the 45 Cowboy Special round is much too short to function properly in a lever rifle. One can modify, or buy, a modified carrier for a toggle link rifle (1860 Henry, 1866 Winchester or 1873 Winchester) that will allow the 45CS to cycle properly in a lever gun chambered for 45 Colt. Otherwise, the round is much too short to feed properly in a lever gun. I am not aware of any modifications that will allow the 45CS to function properly in a Winchester Model 1892. I'm sure if somebody really wanted to, the 1892 carrier could be modified to work with the 45CS, but I am not aware of anybody who has done so. As it is, converting a toggle link rifle to feed 45CS is pretty rare.

Regarding shooting the 45 Auto Rim in revolvers instead of 45 ACP with clips, count me as one. There was quite a long thread about this quite recently. I prefer to shoot 45 Auto Rims in my Model 1917 Smiths, I don't want to mess around stuffing rounds onto clips. By the way, the 1917 S&W revolver will fire a 45 ACP without moon clips just fine, the rounds headspace on the chamber throat, but you need a stick to poke out the empties.
 
"How about the short round with a .45 Colt rim? That’s the .45 S&W, which is sometimes called the .45 Schofield or-infrequently-the .45 Short Colt."

The .45 Schofield did NOT have a .45 Colt diameter rim.

In addition to the issue of cylinder length that Bob discusses above, S&W was also quite concerned that the Colt rim was far too small to operate effectively with their auto ejector mechanism.

When S&W submitted their first .45 revolvers to the Government, they also had to submit ammunition (because what they were proposing didn't take standard US issue ammo).

The rim on the cartridges that S&W provided (which they had developed with UMC) were significantly greater in diameter than the standard .45 Colt round.

In testing, the Army decided to adopt the less powerful S&W round (there were lots of complaints about the .45 Colt round, as issued, being way too powerful), but Frankford Arsenal reworked it so that it had a rim diameter in between the commercial S&W-provided rounds and the Army issued and manufactured .45 Colt rounds.
 
I have a S&W .45 Colt Mountain Gun (DA) and I have NO doubt the .45 Special will work just fine.

As I said the 45 Special will work just fine in any gun chambered for the 45 Colt. In a gun built for the 45 Colt. Yes. The 45 acp is another matter and another gun.

There seems to be some confusion between the 45 acp and the 45 Colt. The 45 auto Rim which, as we keep repeating, is just a 45 acp with a rim on it so that it can be used in revolvers made for the 45 acp without a moon clip. The 45 Colt is another round.

tipoc
 
Well aware of the difference between .45 Colt v. .45 ACP.

When I first started loading .45 Colt, I immediately noticed that the volume of the case occupied by powder was extremely small. Now I reload for a S&W Mountain Gun and this ain't no Blackhawk (no stiff loads!). So your mind very naturally starts to think: Hmmm, I wonder if there's a smaller case available? Say, about the size of a .45 ACP? Well, yes there is. But unfortunately that's the .45 AR which definitely won't work with a .45 Colt revolver.

Then this weekend I bumped into Starline's .45 Special. Eureka! That's exactly what I've been looking for!
 
Just talked to Hunter at Starline, their tech guy. Three points:

a) the .45 Special case is the same as the .45 ACP and .45 AR, except for a different head (i.e., rim).

b) there's NO problem with accuracy because of the shorter case. (The gap between the bullet in its case and the forcing cone isn't a problem because, before the bullet jumps from the cylinder to the forcing cone, it must first go thru the chamber throat. Lining it up with the forcing cone.)

c) the .45 Special had been under a exclusive license with another company and that's expired. So it's been added to the Starline catalog for only a month.
 
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