"That Gun's Too Big for You!"
- Thread starter RPGamingGirl
- Start date
The salesman told you it was too big for you because you are a woman. He was probably out of line. You were probably caught a little off guard because you didn't have a snappy one-line response that isn't necessarily mean, but backs the guy off. Here are some to consider for the future:
1. if that gun is too big for me, what are you doing with a Desert Eagle in that case - selling guns to Sasquatch?
2. Why do you stock such big guns - perhaps you should sell more derringers and Braverman pen-pistols.
3. That gun's not too big, the cartridges you sell are too small.
4. That gun's not too big, it's an optical illusion because you aren't holding it correctly - here, hold it like this (show's salesman how to hold the gun properly), now the gun looks just right.
1. if that gun is too big for me, what are you doing with a Desert Eagle in that case - selling guns to Sasquatch?
2. Why do you stock such big guns - perhaps you should sell more derringers and Braverman pen-pistols.
3. That gun's not too big, the cartridges you sell are too small.
4. That gun's not too big, it's an optical illusion because you aren't holding it correctly - here, hold it like this (show's salesman how to hold the gun properly), now the gun looks just right.
RPGamingGirl
New member
WVsig said:
Actually, i did understand the law by that point. I hadn't understood it a couple of weeks before, and checked into it before i walked into this guy's store; that's why i caught on that he wasn't giving me complete information.
Update: my husband went into the place himself and asked the same questions, getting even less information out of him. Then the guy went on to try and convince my husband that open carry is completely illegal in Missouri (it isn't, and in fact no counties and very few cities in the area have ordinances against it). So i'm going to go with my original, though maybe slightly overreacting instinct on this: guy is a little shady.
Also, he didn't think my husband's Ruger P95 was too big for him. Go figure.
BigCountry308 said:
It's the 9mm.
youngunz4life" said:
Agreed on both counts; thanks for replying.
American Eagle said:
That's so kind of--hey, wait a minute!
danez71 said:
Thank you, that's exactly what i've been trying to say!
Skans said:
I'm more sure about this than ever, since the guy didn't try to sell my husband a smaller gun when he went in.
And thanks for the one-liners, lol, #4 is my favorite.
He owns a gun shop he is not a lawyer. Again what part of the information he provided about selling you a gun was incorrect?
I am also surprised that if you have such a bad experience why your husband returned to the shop? Why waste his time? Again I think you were bothered by his comment and it clouded your judgement. I think you are expecting way too much from the gun store owner. I hate to say it but far too many of the counter jockeys do not know their business. The more gun shops you interact with the more this sad fact rings true IMHO.
RPGamerGirl,
Please bear with me. This is probably going to be a long post. Not going to say anything about That Guy (you are probably right with your gut instinct, since you were there & none of us were). But your report of the encounter, and the reactions you've gotten in this thread, got me to thinking, so...
A lot of times, people mix up two possible meanings for "it's too big for you."
When someone uses either meaning, they may or they may not know what they are talking about. But the two are not the same thing.
If they mean you can't handle that caliber, they might also mean, "... because you are a new shooter and will develop a bad flinch habit as you keep shooting it." Or they might mean something more like, "... because you are physically small, you will have more difficulty controlling the recoil to bring the gun back onto target quickly for follow up shots than you would if you were physically larger, or were firing a smaller caliber."
Both of these points are valid ones, though neither might apply in your particular case. One of the things that chaps my hide in gun stores is the constant & pernicious assumption that all female shooters are new shooters until we prove otherwise. Yes, many women looking for a firearm are looking for their very first firearm. But many of us have been shooting for years. It's tiresome to always & forever need to deal with the assumption that we're all new shooters.
As for the second idea, the belief that someone who is physically small will have more trouble bringing the second and subsequent shots back onto target quickly: the assumption is annoying, but I believe it is true. Lisa Munson, who holds 8 national women's titles and is the only female shooter to achieve Master Class in IPSC's Limited division, is 5 ft 1 in tall and weighs only a little more than 100 pounds. She says her size has absolutely been a factor in her shooting. It doesn't have to be a limitation (as she has so amply demonstrated!), but it does mean she has had to work a lot harder at controlling the gun than someone with more body mass would need to do. I took a one-day seminar from her several years ago, and was fascinated to hear her explain how carefully she has needed to tailor her loads to stay within the power factor while providing herself with the lowest possible recoil for control. She does shoot Major, not Minor, and she does it very well indeed. But her size has been a factor for her to deal with. So the lesson here is 1) it does take more work for smaller people to control large calibers, and 2) physical size does not need to be a limitation unless you aren't willing to do that work.
Now about Meaning #2, that the gun might be physically too large for your hands. This one's a little more tricky, but here's my take: If you cannot reliably reach all of the controls, the gun is too large for your hands. If you cannot flick the safety off with your dominant thumb, the gun is a poor fit for you. If you cannot get the correct portion of your finger on the trigger while the backstrap fits snugly into the web of your hand and the barrel aligns with your forearm bones, the gun is almost certainly too large for you in this sense.
What does "too large" translate to? Well, first, it does not mean you cannot shoot the gun at all. Obviously, you can! And you enjoy it, too. But when the gun does not naturally align with your forearm bones, you will have difficulty in less than ideal conditions because you cannot easily use your natural pointing instinct to bring the gun quickly onto target. It also means you will find it difficult to manipulate the controls, especially when you need to move those controls with just one hand such as you might need to do under less than ideal conditions. Although you might really love an incorrectly-sized gun and enjoy shooting it for fun, you will never shoot an incorrectly-sized gun as well as you would shoot one that actually fit you well. And that is especially true if you need to shoot that gun very fast under maximum stress and non-optimal conditions (such as in the dark, or while you and your target are both moving). Again, I'm not saying you can't shoot the gun at all or that you can't enjoy shooting it; I am saying that it will take more work to master and that (especially under stress) you will never shoot the incorrectly-sized gun as well as you would be able to shoot one that fits you better.
Does this matter? Yes and no. It doesn't matter at all if you have the gun for pleasure shooting or for plinking. (D'oh! A gun you love is a gun you love...) But it does matter if you envision needing to shoot the gun very quickly under maximum stress, as you might need to do in self defense. If you need to do that, you will want every advantage you can possibly get, including the advantage of a firearm that easily aligns on target using your natural pointing instinct rather than one that requires a less instinctive and more mechanical adjustment to align on target.
Similarly, the caliber you choose matters not one bit if you are willing to work as hard as Lisa Munson has worked to overcome the natural limitations of her size. If you aren't willing to work quite that hard (she shoots upwards of 20,000 rounds/year), and you are physically small, you might want to choose a caliber that will take less work to master. For most smaller people, the ideal balance will fall somewhere between those points: we'll work hard, though not as hard as she does, and we'll choose a caliber with as much power as we're willing to regularly practice with. That balance point will be different for everyone, and it's sure bet the stranger in the gun store can't tell you what your ideal balance point will be. Certainly not by blurting it out within seconds of meeting you!
Hope this makes sense and doesn't offend too much. What I'm getting at is, it's not quite as black & white, yes or no as we'd like to think. Finding the "ideal" gun for self defense is a very personal process, a little different for everyone, and there are a lot of variables to consider. Just because some folks are too dogmatic about the whole thing doesn't mean those variables don't exist. They are data points -- nothing more, but also nothing less.
pax
Please bear with me. This is probably going to be a long post. Not going to say anything about That Guy (you are probably right with your gut instinct, since you were there & none of us were). But your report of the encounter, and the reactions you've gotten in this thread, got me to thinking, so...
A lot of times, people mix up two possible meanings for "it's too big for you."
- Meaning 1: "You can't handle that caliber of firearm."
- Meaning 2: "The gun's grip is physically too large for your hands."
When someone uses either meaning, they may or they may not know what they are talking about. But the two are not the same thing.
If they mean you can't handle that caliber, they might also mean, "... because you are a new shooter and will develop a bad flinch habit as you keep shooting it." Or they might mean something more like, "... because you are physically small, you will have more difficulty controlling the recoil to bring the gun back onto target quickly for follow up shots than you would if you were physically larger, or were firing a smaller caliber."
Both of these points are valid ones, though neither might apply in your particular case. One of the things that chaps my hide in gun stores is the constant & pernicious assumption that all female shooters are new shooters until we prove otherwise. Yes, many women looking for a firearm are looking for their very first firearm. But many of us have been shooting for years. It's tiresome to always & forever need to deal with the assumption that we're all new shooters.
As for the second idea, the belief that someone who is physically small will have more trouble bringing the second and subsequent shots back onto target quickly: the assumption is annoying, but I believe it is true. Lisa Munson, who holds 8 national women's titles and is the only female shooter to achieve Master Class in IPSC's Limited division, is 5 ft 1 in tall and weighs only a little more than 100 pounds. She says her size has absolutely been a factor in her shooting. It doesn't have to be a limitation (as she has so amply demonstrated!), but it does mean she has had to work a lot harder at controlling the gun than someone with more body mass would need to do. I took a one-day seminar from her several years ago, and was fascinated to hear her explain how carefully she has needed to tailor her loads to stay within the power factor while providing herself with the lowest possible recoil for control. She does shoot Major, not Minor, and she does it very well indeed. But her size has been a factor for her to deal with. So the lesson here is 1) it does take more work for smaller people to control large calibers, and 2) physical size does not need to be a limitation unless you aren't willing to do that work.
Now about Meaning #2, that the gun might be physically too large for your hands. This one's a little more tricky, but here's my take: If you cannot reliably reach all of the controls, the gun is too large for your hands. If you cannot flick the safety off with your dominant thumb, the gun is a poor fit for you. If you cannot get the correct portion of your finger on the trigger while the backstrap fits snugly into the web of your hand and the barrel aligns with your forearm bones, the gun is almost certainly too large for you in this sense.
What does "too large" translate to? Well, first, it does not mean you cannot shoot the gun at all. Obviously, you can! And you enjoy it, too. But when the gun does not naturally align with your forearm bones, you will have difficulty in less than ideal conditions because you cannot easily use your natural pointing instinct to bring the gun quickly onto target. It also means you will find it difficult to manipulate the controls, especially when you need to move those controls with just one hand such as you might need to do under less than ideal conditions. Although you might really love an incorrectly-sized gun and enjoy shooting it for fun, you will never shoot an incorrectly-sized gun as well as you would shoot one that actually fit you well. And that is especially true if you need to shoot that gun very fast under maximum stress and non-optimal conditions (such as in the dark, or while you and your target are both moving). Again, I'm not saying you can't shoot the gun at all or that you can't enjoy shooting it; I am saying that it will take more work to master and that (especially under stress) you will never shoot the incorrectly-sized gun as well as you would be able to shoot one that fits you better.
Does this matter? Yes and no. It doesn't matter at all if you have the gun for pleasure shooting or for plinking. (D'oh! A gun you love is a gun you love...) But it does matter if you envision needing to shoot the gun very quickly under maximum stress, as you might need to do in self defense. If you need to do that, you will want every advantage you can possibly get, including the advantage of a firearm that easily aligns on target using your natural pointing instinct rather than one that requires a less instinctive and more mechanical adjustment to align on target.
Similarly, the caliber you choose matters not one bit if you are willing to work as hard as Lisa Munson has worked to overcome the natural limitations of her size. If you aren't willing to work quite that hard (she shoots upwards of 20,000 rounds/year), and you are physically small, you might want to choose a caliber that will take less work to master. For most smaller people, the ideal balance will fall somewhere between those points: we'll work hard, though not as hard as she does, and we'll choose a caliber with as much power as we're willing to regularly practice with. That balance point will be different for everyone, and it's sure bet the stranger in the gun store can't tell you what your ideal balance point will be. Certainly not by blurting it out within seconds of meeting you!
Hope this makes sense and doesn't offend too much. What I'm getting at is, it's not quite as black & white, yes or no as we'd like to think. Finding the "ideal" gun for self defense is a very personal process, a little different for everyone, and there are a lot of variables to consider. Just because some folks are too dogmatic about the whole thing doesn't mean those variables don't exist. They are data points -- nothing more, but also nothing less.
pax
RPGamingGirl
New member
I'm not trying to drive any point about him being 'incorrect,' just making a statement of opinion, supporting it a little with my experience, and getting the opinions of others. I think you're taking it a bit personally. Do you happen to fit the guy's description and work at a gun shop in AR or something?
My husband went in to inquire about the range in the back; there aren't any others within an hour and a half's drive, and while our back yard has plenty of space for handguns, we don't have the acreage for rifles. So no, he wasn't going just to test the guy if that's what you think i'm implying about the whole thing.
My husband went in to inquire about the range in the back; there aren't any others within an hour and a half's drive, and while our back yard has plenty of space for handguns, we don't have the acreage for rifles. So no, he wasn't going just to test the guy if that's what you think i'm implying about the whole thing.
RPGamingGirl
New member
pax, you make some very good points and i totally agree with you. Educational posts ftw!
I guess i was just annoyed that the guy assumed i didn't already know what was good for me. If i had come in and asked for help, or even told him i was shopping for something new, that would have been totally different, and i would have welcomed his apparent expertise. But he didn't even seem to size me up too carefully--if he had, he would have seen that i'm a bigger gal and probably not said anything at all! Because it really does fit my hand well, i really do handle the recoil fine (with some effort, admittedly, but not the kind i'm unwilling to work on), and i'm using the smallest caliber i feel necessary for my purposes (9mm for plinking and home defense).
Funny that even on the subject of guns, which may be the biggest equalizer we have (between the sexes, economic class, physical abilities, etc.), there are still some people that will make rash assumptions about another person's competence without knowing any of the facts.
I guess i was just annoyed that the guy assumed i didn't already know what was good for me. If i had come in and asked for help, or even told him i was shopping for something new, that would have been totally different, and i would have welcomed his apparent expertise. But he didn't even seem to size me up too carefully--if he had, he would have seen that i'm a bigger gal and probably not said anything at all! Because it really does fit my hand well, i really do handle the recoil fine (with some effort, admittedly, but not the kind i'm unwilling to work on), and i'm using the smallest caliber i feel necessary for my purposes (9mm for plinking and home defense).
Funny that even on the subject of guns, which may be the biggest equalizer we have (between the sexes, economic class, physical abilities, etc.), there are still some people that will make rash assumptions about another person's competence without knowing any of the facts.
Yes. This.
A surprising number of otherwise nice guys tend to assume that
1) Because you're female, you're a new shooter, AND
2) Because you're female, you won't practice and don't want to learn anything more than you already know (which of course is nothing, because see #1).
Those assumptions can lead to some really, really frustrating interactions -- like the one you experienced.
I don't think it's good for most women to be constantly told that no one expects them to learn anything or to work hard to master the skill of shooting. Learning to shoot takes work and it's not good to tell people they don't have to do that work.
You're right on target with that!
pax
Not at all this is an interweb forum one should ever take it personally. I just think your take on what happened is skewed because you took his comments personally when as Pax illustrated could have actually been spot on.
As I tred to point out earlier his comments might have had nothing to do with gender but instead with physical traits. It seems like you and almost everyone else in this thread assumed it was about gender.
I have small hands and without the small grip module the SP2022 is right on the verge of being "too big" for me. I cannot always hit the decocker on it with the medium grip installed. It also does not seat perfectly in the web of my hand like a 1911 or a BHP. If he had said that to me knowning what I know about grip and proper alignment of the gun I might have been inclinded to agree with him.
RPGamingGirl
New member
The standard grip happens to be perfect for me; the way it fit was a big deciding factor on it being my choice of a handgun.
He could have made an honest mistake and took me for smaller than i am. I'll accept that, and being a girl of average or larger stature and weight, maybe even take it as a compliment, lol. He could have even assumed that my SP2022 was the .40 version instead of the 9mm (he didn't ask, i didn't tell), in which case i would have agreed that the caliber is probably overkill for my purposes, if not experience level.
Who knows; there are a lot of reasons he could have said what he did. Maybe he's intimidated by redheads, so any time one walks into his shop, he tries to talk them into a smaller gun. People are weird and unpredictable like that. It could have been anything.
Looks like an 'agree to disagree' situation.
He could have made an honest mistake and took me for smaller than i am. I'll accept that, and being a girl of average or larger stature and weight, maybe even take it as a compliment, lol. He could have even assumed that my SP2022 was the .40 version instead of the 9mm (he didn't ask, i didn't tell), in which case i would have agreed that the caliber is probably overkill for my purposes, if not experience level.
Who knows; there are a lot of reasons he could have said what he did. Maybe he's intimidated by redheads, so any time one walks into his shop, he tries to talk them into a smaller gun. People are weird and unpredictable like that. It could have been anything.
Looks like an 'agree to disagree' situation.
With the right clothing, anything is concealable! 
I have run into similar sellers *cough* basspro *cough* and I'm 6'2" and 255 lbs. They seem to assume that because they are behind the counter they know everything and you need all the help you can get.
Nice pistol btw RPG, and yes, its 40 cal counterpart does have a bit more snap. But if you can handle a 9mm, I see no reason why any other caliber would give you much trouble
But then I'm for maximum firepower overall
BB
I have run into similar sellers *cough* basspro *cough* and I'm 6'2" and 255 lbs. They seem to assume that because they are behind the counter they know everything and you need all the help you can get.
Nice pistol btw RPG, and yes, its 40 cal counterpart does have a bit more snap. But if you can handle a 9mm, I see no reason why any other caliber would give you much trouble
But then I'm for maximum firepower overall
BB
SPEMack618
New member
I actually got into a bit of an argument with the Lady friend over a gun being too big for her in that her hands were not physically large enough to manipulate the controls. Wasn't being sexist, I would just hate for her to have dump a magazine or snap the safety off in a hurry and not be able to.
And Pax brings up a good point about the very real fear of developing a permenant flinch, I was very very hesitant when the Lady friend asked to shoot my 7mm Mag, because up to that point she hadn't shot anything bigger than a .22 LR or a .223 in semi-autos, and to go from that to a bolt action, composite stocked 7mm mag is a bit of a paradigm shift.
And Pax brings up a good point about the very real fear of developing a permenant flinch, I was very very hesitant when the Lady friend asked to shoot my 7mm Mag, because up to that point she hadn't shot anything bigger than a .22 LR or a .223 in semi-autos, and to go from that to a bolt action, composite stocked 7mm mag is a bit of a paradigm shift.
RPGamingGirl
New member
Well, i now know for a fact that i handle a .40 cal Sig (not sure of the model) just fine as well. So of course i want one (thanks a lot, Dad!).
Speaking of my dad, he met the range owner who i had so much trouble with at a big gun show (Dad is peddling defense knives) a few weeks ago, and agrees that yeah, he's kind of a jerk, but it's just an arrogant Vietnam era Marine thing (lol?). My description must have been good though, because the show was out of town and he guessed it was the same guy.
Anyway. Dad has an open invitation to come use the range any time, so i'm going to have to go down there with him and show off a bit.
Speaking of my dad, he met the range owner who i had so much trouble with at a big gun show (Dad is peddling defense knives) a few weeks ago, and agrees that yeah, he's kind of a jerk, but it's just an arrogant Vietnam era Marine thing (lol?). My description must have been good though, because the show was out of town and he guessed it was the same guy.
Anyway. Dad has an open invitation to come use the range any time, so i'm going to have to go down there with him and show off a bit.
Uncle Buck
New member
My wife does a little shooting and she likes revolvers. Her favorite pistol is the Ruger New Model Vaquero, .45 Colt.
At the time, she weighed a whopping 112 pounds. We were a gun show and she got bored and wandered off. Sometime latter she came back and told me she had found another .45 Colt that she liked, but the guy said it was too big of a gun for her and told her she should try shooting a .38 Special.
I went over to the guys table and talked a little about the gun and acted like I was getting ready to purchase the firearm (Checked my wallet to make sure I had the cash and he saw it.) when she walked up. She said "Oh, sweetheart, he said that gun was too big for me." I looked at him and said "Never mind then, I'll find something else for her." and we walked off laughing.
When I ask your opinion it is appreciated, even if I do not follow it. But when I, or my wife, do not ask, keep your trap shut. There are several gunshops here in Missouri we no longer frequent because of this.
Maybe our opinions are just a Missouri thing?
At the time, she weighed a whopping 112 pounds. We were a gun show and she got bored and wandered off. Sometime latter she came back and told me she had found another .45 Colt that she liked, but the guy said it was too big of a gun for her and told her she should try shooting a .38 Special.
I went over to the guys table and talked a little about the gun and acted like I was getting ready to purchase the firearm (Checked my wallet to make sure I had the cash and he saw it.) when she walked up. She said "Oh, sweetheart, he said that gun was too big for me." I looked at him and said "Never mind then, I'll find something else for her." and we walked off laughing.
When I ask your opinion it is appreciated, even if I do not follow it. But when I, or my wife, do not ask, keep your trap shut. There are several gunshops here in Missouri we no longer frequent because of this.
Maybe our opinions are just a Missouri thing?
RPGamingGirl
New member
Uncle Buck said:
That very well may be. Instead of the "Show Me State" it should probably be called the "Tell Me I Can't; I Dare You" state.
RPGamingGirl
New member
natman said:
Yeah, that was mentioned several times, and also not the point of the post. Thanks for stating the obvious though. It's always super helpful.
natman said:
I have yet to meet a douchbag i couldn't outshoot. Or beat at arm-wrestling, for that matter. Just saying.