TFL has lost me.

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Cassidy,

Glad you stayed on board. There are many good people here, yourself included, and we all need to stay and fight the fight.

We can do it in one way here by rallying people together and sharing thoughts. This is not the end-all and be-all of approaches though, and we realize the limits on TFL.

If all of our actions simply occured here, at the keyboard, we would never win the fight. The other ways in which we all proceed is frequently a personal choice, and that is a matter perhaps better left untouched and unsaid.

We are with you, and you are with us. We will prevail!



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"Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it."
 
Cassidy...
I'm making an assumption based on your surname:
Never speak outside of the Family...capishe?

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Henry, Jefferson, Franklin, and Co. didn't see eye to eye on everything either. But they DID know who the real enemy was, and they set all that other crap aside for their common good.

The basic problem which I see is that we have become generally lazy as a nation. We are, as a collective, willing to take whatever crap the government spoons or shovels out to us. Not all of us, for certain, but a significant portion of the populace. And it won't get better on its own.

I hope that there are a number of people on these forums who will run for public office, particularly at the state level. It is my intention to do so once I get free from the Navy and get my feet underneath me in Colorado. If we sit on the sidelines and watch as people who have no love for the Constitution and the principles contained therein, then we deserve what we get. That's why I am so proud of the gun owners in Colorado and their recent efforts to right the ship in that state. We all need to band together for similar actions wherever we are with like-minded folks.

This IS a civil rights struggle, and should be treated as such.
 
Capishe DC. Point taken.



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Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
 
Flintlock,

Respectfully, ALL gunlaws are unconstitutional. Period. I think you have consumed a bit too much of the special Kool-aid. Again respectfully, your rhetoric reminds me of VPC and HCI-lite.
 
I have stayed out of this up until now but I'm going to tell ya'll what I think.
First, Flintlock, yes, all gun laws are unreasonable and unconstitutional. Your pitiful 'background check' law has yielded a grand total of 7(seven) convictions since it's inception and has caused an enormous inconvenience to a great many of us that are have absolutely NO criminal record.

We have lost our battle for gun rights. It's over. It will never be any better than it is now until after the revolution.
Vendors and manufacturers are either refusing service to us, sponsoring anti-gun legislation or putting out anti-gun ads. Some aprtment complexes and housing areas are refusing tenancy to admitted gunowners. You have to get permits to buy, carry, own and store your own guns in some states. Now banks are refusing service to us.

Just what would you have us to do? Some say that they are not talking about attacking with weapons but that we should not sit back and wait.

Let explain something to you.

We (gunowners/patriots)have been constantly attacked and harrassed for years. Through it all we have been polite, patient and compromising when we shouldn't have and what has it gotten us up til now? They have an agenda and a deadline and it doesn't make a damn what we do at this point, IT WON'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE!! At best, we may prolong it just for a little while but it will be nothing permanent.

We have written letters, faxxed, petitioned, e-mailed, donated money and time, appeared on talk shows both radio and TV when "they" would allow us to.

Don't think that I'm a pessimist or that I haven't done my share. I'm an NRA life member, recruiter and certified instructor. I belong to and financially support GOA. I'm active in my local militia, I own a shooting school for crying out loud!! I've done everything that there is to do to support gun rights.

We are almost down to our last option and it breaks my heart. I won't spend another cent on phone calls, stamps or donations. I need to spend my money on more important things now. You say that we need to do something. Kindly let me know what that might be and I will certainly take it under advisement.



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Desertscout
desertscout@hotmail.com

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference -- they deserve a place of honor with all that is good."
--George Washington
 
You've all been told - over and over.

The Democrats and Republicans have implemented every unconstitutional
gun control law in existence.

So we vote for Republicans (who want “less” gun control) to fight Democrats
(who want “more" gun control) and then we wonder why we get gun control.

But then, those of us who believe in the Second Amendment and the
Constitution aren’t “viable”.....
-----

Where has gun control come from? All we have to do is look in a mirror.
We have voted for it time and time again.

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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
"I'm takin' my marbles an' gion' home!"

Yeah....good answer. We lose because we don't fight. But there's more to fighting than running the streets like thugs. Get IN the system. Run for a city or county office. Work in a campaign. When you buy that $600 rifle, write a check to the lobby group of your choice. DON'T just whine and talk 'hypothetical'. DO SOMETHING, STUPID!
I've noticed that the antis are, as a group, more interested in 'changing the world' while rkba's are more likely interested in 'changing the channel'. Antis are more likely to get involved in elections because they tend to be more idealistic. They get into the media because they want others to hear 'the truth'. And remember, antis aren't evil. They really believe in what they do.
Rkba's are more likely to be satisfied with the 'you leave me alone, and I'll leave you alone' mindset. At most, they might TRY to talk to an anti or point out the flawed logic of that position. IT IS NOT ENOUGH. We are in for the fight of (and for) our lives. We MUST become just as socially active and 'responsible' as the antis. We must get involved in politics, the media (not just gun mags), and we must put our money where our mouths are. NO RETREAT, NO SURRENDER! VOTE! CONTACT YOUR CONGRESSMEN, BETTER YET, GET INVOLVED IN THEIR CAMPAIGNS!
Look, if a candidate is on the fence about gun control, he's going to follow the money, and the campaign workers. I've seen candidates change certain views through contact with their campaign workers, who later become their staffers (the guys who REALLY answer your letters and make decisions). Power goes to those who take it, not to those who complain about it.
Now is the perfect time to get to work in the Republican party. Enough people of a like mind in the party can change what direction it goes. And for president, you've GOT to be an IDIOT to vote ANY OTHER WAY. Voting for a third party because you don't like the way things are going is like picking up your marbles and going home, thus leaving the Democrats in control of the game. Only if rational men of all stripes (Republican and Libertarian) pull together can we avoid another Democratic president. Remember, George Bush Sr. lost an election because of dissatisfaction and people picking up marbles and going home. GROW UP AND SAVE OUR COUNTRY!!!
 
Runner, Hitler believed in what he did. I think stalin and Mao did also. Anyone trying to take someones natural rights away is evil.

Maybe this is what you were thinking with you other post. Dont arrest me I didnt say it!

--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government

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The beauty of the second Amendment is that it is not needed until they try to take it. T JEFFERSON

Do you really think that we want those laws to be observed? We want them broken. We're after power and we mean it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breakings laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted-and you create a nation of law breakers--and then you cash in on guilt.

A RAND




[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited February 20, 2000).]
 
Nyterunner,

The weakest link in our RKBA effort has been the fragmenting of our efforts due
to NON-RKBA beliefs.

Please calmly and rationally explain what we SHOULD have been doing for the
last four or five decades, but skip the idea of scrapping our family’s income to run
for public office.

Many of us have become as involved as family wage-earners can become, but the
Republican Party has become the second biggest gun control party in America.

So how would supporting Republican gun control give us LESS gun control?

When Bush or McCain state publicly (as Dr. Keyes has stated) that the Second
Amendment means exactly what it says, then I may believe the Republicans have
again become Republicans. Until then, the Republican Party remains, at best, the
Democratic Party Auxiliary.

I question the wisdom of our continuing support of such a party.

Until you show me how voting for gun control will give us less gun control, I
strongly suggest you re-consider your use of the words "stupid" and “idiotic”.

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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited February 20, 2000).]
 
My, my...all the shades of gray.

I believe this is a black and white issue.
We don't have enough time to change people's minds on this subject to prevent what we're most likely about to face.

You'll either register you guns with the government or you won't.

You'll turn your guns in for pennies on the dollar (if that) or you won't.

You'll either fight and possibly (probably) get killed or you won't.

You'll either not accept an oppressive form of government, and remove it, or become one of the "sheeple".

Work within the system? NEWS FLASH- THE SYSTEM CAN'T EVEN WORK ITSELF, ANYMORE!!

I'm SICK of writing; and faxing, and e-mailing, and contributing, and getting the replies back with the words from an ELECTED official, "I believe what is best right now is......".
I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU BELIEVE! I put YOU there to represent MY BELIEFS, NOT TO SUPERIMPOSE YOUR OWN IN THEIR PLACE!

It was already too late 5 years ago; and it's just a matter of time.

As you may have guessed, I'm not exactly an optimist, but I still PRAY that I'm WRONG.

But ALL THIS is STILL just my $.02...and no flames; there's already enough to go around for all of us.

God help us all- Dakotan
 
It's about FREEDOM, stupid! :)

Couldn't resist. Had to break it up a little.

Dennis is on the money when he states that it is impossible to get anything other than gun control when we vote FOR gun control. Continuing to reward the Republicans (in particular, because they claim to know better) when they continue to shred the RKBA is ludicrous. Time to let them go down in flames for a couple of cycles until they get the message. Politicians only understand two things: money and votes. If you cannot buy influence with them, which most of us cannot, then you have to withhold your vote (and convince others to do the same) until such time as they give you a reason to vote FOR them.

I will no longer make a vote AGAINST the "other guy". It has not, and it WILL not, work. All we will get is more of the same if we continue to reward bad behavior. It's just like training an animal.

[This message has been edited by Bob Locke (edited February 20, 2000).]
 
Cassidy,

I think I need to clarify my previous post to you in response to your idea about the logbooks. I am not flaming you. I just don't want to see you prosecuted and jailed on a conspiracy charge. In the eyes of some, discussing an illegal act even as a hypothetical can be construed as conspiracy to commit that act. I'm not being close-minded, I'm just trying to make you aware of some possible UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES of your post. It has happened before.
 
Nyterunner seems to be one of the only people talking sense -
There are too many people who whine and moan and sit at there keyboards typing away complaining and preaching to the converted.
When a gun owner starts talking to me about gun rights I just don't want to here it, I'm sick and tired of them, they will complain but when it comes to doing something real - not just posting on a forum they wimp out.
Excuses about family/work/money just don't cut it.
I'm the president of a large hunting club(500 odd members) and the chairman/organiser of our local Shooters Party branch.
Usually the ones who end up helping on election day are the busiest people, people with businesses who can't afford the time off, it's the same throughout the organisation. Family/work/money stops me helping out is a poor weak cop out. Old pensioners who can't even stand up for a few minutes volunteer to help out all day.

Australian shooters took the "I'm too busy, whine whine whine" direction and you can see where it's got us.

Sometimes you have to choose between two big evil parties. Throwing your vote away on a person who can't win helps the antis. In Australia we have a preferential voting system so voting for smaller parties works because your vote isn't lost.
 
Voting for the lesser of 2 evils is still voting for evil!
That's what got us in the shape we're in now is voting for who you think will win instead of who you think will do the best job.

Voting for Repubs or Dems either one this time will be a vote against freedom.

------------------

Desertscout
desertscout@hotmail.com

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference -- they deserve a place of honor with all that is good."
--George Washington
 
Y'all can spin it however you want, but the fact remains, a vote for a third party candidate in this election is a vote for Al Gore. I hope you can live with yourself if Gore is elected, because the blame will fall squarely on YOU.
 
Rabbit Assassin,

- Choosing between two big evil parties would be a good option if one of
them were against gun control. Unfortunately, both major parties have
their own gun control agenda. Therefore, there is no way to avoid helping
the “antis” by voting for one of the two “antis”.

Voting for a third party shows both of the big evil parties that they are
losing votes. I can not expect to bring about change in the Republican
Party by supporting their current gun control agenda with my vote.

Therefore, if gun control is the issue I am trying to fight, it would be
throwing my vote away to vote for either gun control party.

By the way, discussing firearms rights on a firearms board is not necessarily
the whine of a non-voter. I missed some local elections while I was
overseas, but I’ve voted in every Presidential election since 1960. I suspect
equal records from many TFL members.
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RikWriter,

Sir, the “spin” is saying a vote FOR gun control is a vote AGAINST gun
control. I can not see the sense in it.

Furthermore, it is not the votes cast for Republicans or third parties that
elect Gore - it is the votes cast FOR Gore. If that simple fact is
controversial to you, let’s just agree to disagree.

Should a Republican be elected President, I wonder how you will celebrate
*their* gun control program. Saying, “It would have been worse under
Gore!”?

Gun owners have been playing the placating game since the 1930s. We’ve
been voting against “worse” in favor of “bad” long enough - there isn’t much
left to lose. I choose to vote *against* gun control - therefore neither the
Democrats nor their Republican sisters have anything to offer me.

------------------
Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
Dennis, you are overlooking a couple things. First, it is not only the votes for Gore which could elect him, it is the votes by convservatives who waste their votes on a third party rather than voting for the Republican candidate.
Second, NO THIRD PARTY CANDIDATE CAN GET ELECTED PRESIDENT THIS YEAR. Read that carefully and consider it. It's the truth, no matter how much you dislike it.
If you REALLY want to get a third party candidate elected, there is a way to do it...FIRST, you get people from your party elected as governors and state legislators. THEN get members of your party elected to the House, THEN the Senate, and finally, when your party is widespread and powerful enough to be a serious force rather than a joke, run a candidate in a well-financed campaign for President.
Until then, any third party candidate is nothing but someone to suck votes away from the GOP and let the Dems get control.
And if you think Bush or McCain would be bad, Gore will be a thousand times worse.
You may not like it, but those are the plain facts.
 
Rik,

Politicians understand two things, and ONLY two things: money and votes. The vast majority of them base every vote they case on one, the other, or both.

I don't have a ton of money that I can use to buy influence. I do, however, have my vote. And I also have a pretty big mouth which I can use to persuade my friends and their votes.

The real question here is whether it is the single battle that is important, or the entire war. Using your stategy of voting for the lesser of two evils, the war can never possibly be won. If, however, enough conservatives withhold their votes from the GOP until such time as the GOP straightens up and flies right, and nominates actual Constitutionalists at ALL levels, then the war CAN be won.

I (and Dennis and many others) opt for the latter, because we are looking at the long-term effects and consequences. One election, even THIS one, isn't going to make or break this country. If we have survived the past seven years, we'll be able to hang on for a few more.
 
Bob, you're living in a dream if you think the Republicans will do that. The fact is, not enough people care enough about the RKBA to vote third party based soley on that issue. By wasting your vote, you're not only just losing the battle AND the war, you're surrendering without firing a shot.
 
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