TFL has lost me.

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CassidyGT

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Sorry guys. Can't deal with the closed mindedness and unwillingness to even entertain hypothetical situations in the fight against tyranny.

Go ahead - vote and write letters until you're are numb. I will too.

But if we cannot, indeed will not, entertain ideas that will thwart the tyranny that encroaches on our liberty. If we will humbly submit to oppression under the guise of its 'legality'. If we will stake our freedom on the whim and terror of the masses ,the greed of politicians, or the illogic of our courts. We are finished and our children will grow to love Big Brother - and he will have won.

Its been an interesting ride. CYA

Give me Liberty or Give me Death.

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Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

[This message has been edited by CassidyGT (edited February 18, 2000).]
 
I hope you'll reconsider. I don't like the gun laws either (and we live under similar systems, I'm in IL) but I just don't want to engage in acts that I do find immoral unless I'm forced to it. I think most of us here are grappling with how much is too much, when is the camel in the tent, how much can we take before we have to do what none of us wants to do? Don't lose all the good things here just because you disagree with the staff's answer to that question. Think about it.
 
Stay and concerse with us some more. Keep in mind that, while we might not talk big, some people are working quietly to solve the problems and/or perpetrators. The ar15.com, I recall, was sometimes the opposite ;)
 
Can't deal with the closed mindedness and unwillingness to even entertain hypothetical situations in the fight against tyranny.

Oh, we'll entertain such hypothetical situations. We've done so many times.

Just be aware of proper balance: one can get caught up in the exciting fervor of such scenarios and get too excited while sitting comfortably in our chairs. Beware of hard-to-verify conspiracies when we have plenty of blatant acts occuring; beware of conspiring to kill Jack-Booted Thugs smashing thru your home windows when we're far more likely to be quietly legislated and PC'd away; beware of losing heart when we still have a representational democracy.

It sucks to get one's hands slapped; do not hate the slapper, but instead understand why.
 
Cassidy, I too, hope that you will reconsider. Seldom dop people ever agree on 100% of every issue.

What you suggest, even hypothetically, doe s not seem to me good cause to commit the crime of Breaking and Entering. I doubt also that if the hypothetical burglars were caught in the act, that the cops would much care why they were in the gun shop.

A funny thing happened here in Vermont a few years back. The facility where all traffic tickets were processed was broken into, drawers of tickets emptied in the middle of the floor, and then set on fire. Long story short, many people got out of paying their tickets since they had been destroyed. Unfortunately, the system for recording and storing was revamped, and now it runs more efficiently than ever. Seems a good example of hypothetical thinking gone awry.



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Panzerführer

Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.
 
CassidyGT,
I just reviewed your latest thread. Please note that many people - especially interested BATF agents that are likely watching - view your "Rebellion - And No ONe Gets Hurt!!!" thread as teetering on the bare edge (or outright advocacy in a judge's eyes) of promoting multiple large-scale high-end felonies.

Getting such a thread shut down is not "closed mindedness and unwillingness to even entertain hypothetical situations in the fight against tyranny", it is the shunning of very realistic suggestions that many people commit crimes that could get them jailed for hundreds of years (no joke!).

Relax, sit back, and handle things in a legal fasion. If you're so upset, go file a lawsuit...it would be far more effective. We just need one clean courtroom success to return our rights.

Put another way, by posting what you did you were actually committing a felony (no ****). TFL moderators are morally and legally obligated to shut down such talk.
 
Cassidy, I hope you reconsider. We are not a bunch of closed minded individuals, but in most cases being prudent is not a bad thing, especially on an open forum. Conspiracy to commit a felony is still illegal and much easier to prove than the actual act. Just ask the people spending time in jail for conspiring to build "full autos"

As for the purely hypotheticalsuggestion. Beware of unintended consequences. Look at how spin is placed on violent crime and what type of knee jerk legislation is passed. We all know/feel that Columbine, Luby's, McDonalds... type tragedies could have been minimized had the citizens been able to arm and defend themselves. Tha is however not the spin our fearless leaders and media friends conspire to place onf the situation. The result is that we get more and more push for stricter control of our rights. An event as you describe can lead to a short term success while the spin masters can easily gain themselves a great long term win. A few violent crimes commited afterwards could easily be used to justify a centralized and better protected means of information storage, i.e. registration. Not something we need at all.
 
Hmmm - The people on the board that I respect most have posted here.

Gives me pause.

Awhile ago I wrote a letter to NRA telling them that I would never give them a penny more until they started to get tough and not compromise. I got a letter from them illustrating just how much they have accomplished etc. etc..

It made me think.

I sent them $20.

I understand all of your points. I understand the moderators' actions in protecting this site.

I also, see that no matter how hard we try, we seem to lose.

My four year old son just the other day told my wife that "guns are bad aren't they mommy." We have not spoken to him about guns prior to that. I guess he picked that up in his little day school. The whole incident made me want to puke.

My father smiled at me the other day and said, "The tide of history is against you. In another 25 years or so, maybe 50, no one will even want a gun."

I am sorry I get so hot tempered and fly off the handle.



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Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
 
I hate to see anyone leave the forum due to a difference of basic and fundamental ideals and I can only speak for my self but a large number of our members have put their life on the line more than once it assure you the right to have what ever beliefs you wish but at the same time we are members to further the gun culture and to help educate those who have not had the opportunity to know. My days of defending this country against all enemies whom so ever has long passed but I could never be a party of anything that advocated the overthrow of our government or encouraged conduct outside the law. If that's the kind of forum you are looking for there are forums you can find which will satisfy your needs If you are interested in learning and helping to further the cause of gun ownership you are leaving the best forum I have found. Its your choice don't take it lightly
 
Sorry Gale. I respect you alot but if one cannot merely consider actions, inside or outside the law, to defend our rights, then the spirit upon which this country was founded ala The Green Mountain Boys, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry et al, is lost.

If they had never considered such an action as the overthrow of their LEGITIMATE Government, then we would all be subjects and not citizens.

They were, in fact, terrorists that won. In my view, you are wrong. However, my post did not consider the overthrow of the Govt. It merely illustrated an example of conduct, albeit unlawful, that would hamper the illegal activities of our current Govt.

The definition of tyranny is when a Govt. breaks the law. The FBI's use of Form 4473 to create a database of lawful gun owners is against the law. Why do we, as gun owners, have to sue our Govt. to obey its own laws?

That is tyranny.

I can, in good conscience, consider ideas that may work to thwart such illegal activities. Rosa Parks broke the law in her fight against tyranny and I don't suppose anyone outside of a racist would condemn her for her actions. In fact she was awarded a medal for it.

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Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
 
CassidyGT,

I agree with you. If we had obeyed the laws in 1776 we would still be British crown subjects. I'm sure King George and his governors argued that the law was the law and all that as well.

The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. Any law which violates it is null and void, no matter what the statists claim. This isn't to say that they can't make you pay the price for not obeying.

But eventually we will have to decide.
 
I am new to this forum, and I hope I am not out of line, but this thread touched a nerve. As an FFL dealer I don't like the process of filling out a 4473 on every firearms purchase, especially with people whom I know to be good, law abiding citizens, but the law says it has to be done, and we are a nation and society goverened by laws. If the inconvience of a background check keeps a violent criminal from buying a gun, then the inconvience has been worthwhile. I like to think of myself as a pragmatic and realistic person, and in present day America the notion of no holds barred gun ownership is simply not realistic. The founding fathers created our system of government with the ability to make laws that fit our circumstances. A society that has witnessed such tragedies as school shootings (Columbine being the most notorious)and work place shootings (Atlanta brokerage house shootings) will expect its government to "do something" about violence. As responsible firearms enthusiasts we must make it clear to the general public that we are law abiding people and not formentors of violence and disorder. We need to show the general public that we are not the crazies that the anti gun crowd portrays us to be. We can only accomplish this through lawful means, by working within the system that the Founding Fathers created. Are some of the current gun laws good? Yes. Are some bad? Certainly. Good laws can be kept, and bad laws can be changed, all by working within the system. The antis have learned how to use the system successfully. Why can't we?
 
So, what are we to do? Just discuss it? Big city people already consider guns the evil and humans the hapless slaves to the guns. Wait. I live in LA. That must make me one of the many exceptions to that impression!

There must be a way to generate positive public sentiment For Guns in the big cities. Not just in more rural, wide open counties. I invite all the brain power here to offer up suggestions. I'll start with a few.

1. Broaden boy scout activites in the public middle to high schools. Rifle training is a powerful way to give a young mind a positive impression of firearms.

2. Start or support publishers that a) publish literary works that put gun owners in a positive light and b) write insidious propaganda against anti-gun lobby like what the anti's are doing.

3. influence those Cop TV shows' producers to quote LEO's who speak for responsible gun ownership.

4. Get the truth out there about home firearm accidents. Concerned Moms who don't know firearm are easy targets for scare tactics. Suicide by firearms should not be taken out of context. A person bent on killing herself/himself will use whatever means available, lack of firearm will not stop them. And kiddy accidents with Daddy's gun should also be put into context. Any kid who play with weapons is looking for trouble. Be that weapon a firearm, pocket knife, butcher knife, ice pick, power drills, electricity, and the list can go on. You get my point. Child proofing a home or the lack of child proofing should not be confused with legal gun ownership.

I'm out now. Hope to see more. yy
 
CassidyGT, I think we all share your frustration at one level or another, and all I can do is echo the sentiments put forth by the our comrades here. I hope you'll stay with us, your're a bright guy, a patriot, and a defender of the faith. You have obviously grasped that this IS a public forum, and there are some things best discussed in person, and when in doubt, keep your own counsel. There are a lot of solid citizens here, and though I think we'd all prefer to work the system, I also think that if TSHTF, there'd be a lot of us standing up toghether IRL. I hope that day never comes, but some days I am discouraged and scared for what America might become. Change is the only constant, and it's always aboth an opportunity and a threat. Try to mitigate teh threat and seize the opportunity. In the mean time, I try to go one day at a time, change what I can, not waste time on what I can't, and hope for better days to be. Stay safe, M2
 
FlintLock:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If the inconvience of a background check keeps a violent criminal from buying a gun, then the inconvience has been worthwhile.[/quote]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A society that has witnessed such tragedies as school shootings (Columbine being the most notorious)and work place shootings (Atlanta brokerage house shootings) will expect its government to "do something" about violence.[/quote]

I respect your opinion, and I understand where you're coming from, but exactly what good did the inconvenience of a background check do to stop these tragedies?

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Bulldawg: NRA, GOA, TSRA, Shiner Bock Connoisseur.
Bulldawg's Firearms Page


[This message has been edited by Bulldog (edited February 18, 2000).]
 
It's a fine line, and one I sometimes have trouble finding.

Should we obey laws that are illegal? Hm. I respect all opinions (well, very nearly all, I'll deal with the exception following) expressed in this thread.

As far as this:If the inconvience (sic) of a background check keeps a violent criminal from buying a gun, then the inconvience has been worthwhile. I have a suggestion to make. I suggest this as a more logical, better and easier to enforce idea: If the easy availability of firearms saves one peaceful citizen from a violent criminal, then easy availability is worthwhile.
 
Cassidy, I think the big thing here is, anyone who comes onto an open forum on the internet and advocates comitting serious federal crimes is naive at best and an idiot at worst. What you or anyone else chooses to do in real life in response to the laws and regulations is one thing...discussing it on an open forum, where each member could be traced back to their true identity and some use their real names, is just an EXTRAORDINARILY BAD IDEA.
 
Bulldog,
Point taken. A background check did nothing to stop the Columbine and Atlanta tragedies. They were exceptional cases. I do not have the statistics at hand, but background checks have, in many cases, kept people with criminal histories from legally obtaining firearms. And yes, I know that someone intent on buying a gun will find a means to do so without a background check; a visit to any large summer time flea market will yield plenty of good old boys selling guns out of the trunk of their car. My point is simply that not all gun laws are unreasonable, that we should work within the system to change the laws that are unreasonable, and that we should particularly work on the local and state level to stop the passage of future laws that restrict the rights of law abiding citizens.
 
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