Texas Rebels II

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YY, nice try, but I'll wager they can't get specific with you ... they don't know what they want. They're emoting.

Surprises me they don't see the parallel with the anti-self defense movement.

Live and let live. Regards from AZ
 
To all, let's not call names. This is a serious problem and not one that can be fixed easily. I am the director of a program that has about 48 full time employees. I have a unique insight on the cost of health care. It's not just the government, it's not just the insurance companies, and it's not just the level of medical technology, it's all three. First, government programs not only use tax dollars to provide care, and require those in the Medical profession to care for indigents at no charge in order to get the government money, then they set cost containments on that (for something that really costs $10 to get their gov. money to cover the "real" cost they have to charge a percentage over) then there is the pounds of paper-work, patient treatment teams, document reviews etc. that jack the price through the ozone. Where do they pass on their losses? Private insurance. The system is a big mess. Then there is the greed factor of the insurance companies themselves coupled with government rules. We had "cafeteria plans" shoved down our throats by the Gov, then the insurance companies come back and whack us. In our case Our new rate for this year went up 40%. Then the insurance company said we had to guarantee an 80% participation rate with our employees, we can't. Because of that they will not write a policy for us next year. We have shopped, and frankly I'm tired of the constant stream of insurance salesmen through my office with no outcome. I have advised my employees to find it wherever they can and we will give them the money the company was contributing. In my case I have "family coverage" that is now costing me $700 a month. Any questions? I belive the resources are there, to provide some kind of medical care to every American but first you have to get Government out of the picture, burn the paperwork,get rid of the "justification process"take that money find a private administrator who will charge a fair price, take the savings and invest it in the working poor. Go to the private sector, get rid of the middle men, burn the paperwork, get rid of the justification process.......... It is a big problem without simple fixes. We do have a crisis in medical care in this country, but as long as the government is involed it will just get worse. The resources are there, but it will be a big job to organize it.
 
While I certainly sympathize with those who can't afford adequate health care, why do so many people look for government handouts when faced with these problems? Why do people keep thinking that the government is supposed to take care of us?

While it might make sense to loosen up some laws to reduce the costs associated with providing health care and drugs, there is no reason why the government should shoulder all of the burden for caring for the less fortunate.

As someone else said, forced charity is basically extortion. It is also socialism, which destroys freedom under the guise of fairness and equality. The more we get from the government, the less they allow. In other words, the more we allow them to control us, the more they will control us! Like weeds: Give 'em an inch and they take a yard.

As far as I'm concerned, charity (in the sense of providing for the less fortunate) belongs in the realm of religion and other non-profit organizations. That is why they deserve tax-exempt status - what they might pay in taxes should go to helping more people. However, there should be substantial penalties under the law for defrauding a non-profit charitable organization for personal gain.

On the other hand, sometimes people are in the situations that they are in because of their own actions. In many cases (not every case!), it is immoral to keep them from the consequences of those actions.

Life is hard, then you die and they throw dirt in your face. Deal with it.

Just my (further) thoughts on the subject.
 
I thought Medicare and Medicaid gave the poor health care. Am I wrong about this? I thought all hospitals, by law, had to take you in even if you had no insurance. Am I wrong about this?

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Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
 
I will attempt to answer some of the points above. I would DEEPLY appreciate it if those that have flamed my stand actually go back and READ the entirety of my posts. Several of you missed a sentence or two of what was written, and have based an argument on that missed information. Now to begin:

USP, you asked: Does anyone know what the lowest number was of people without health insurance in the US. Or rather, what the lowest percentage was? Do you know when this was?

As of 1985, the number was approximately 27 million. So, we have an increase of 17 million in 15 years. If current trends continue, we'll reach that 100 million mark in about 25 years (The increase has not been linear).

TexasVet, you said: Sorry, about the hypothetical little girl, Dennis, but if her life depends on money taken from my family at the point of a gun (taxes), then she's toast as far as I am concerned.

Since many of you folks seem pathologically unable to put a real face on an abstract event, let's change it a bit. TV, it's YOUR little girl, and you have been unable to work for 3 years due to PTSS, caused by a long-delayed emotional breakdown from your time in-country. Your wife earns $12/hr. Your child needs surgery. Shall we just let her die, then? Maybe you can get work in a car wash.

Oberkommando, you said: I am not one to want goverment medicine, however if all the money wasted by the government like excusing loans to third world countries like brazil and all the IMF monies were put to use here there could be a lot of treatment for people.

Oh man, WHAT YOU SAID!. I believe all foreign aid should be stopped. My opinion only, but we really DO need to take care of our own, instead of trying to influence the politics of East Nagomawandastan.

TAZ, you said: Make hospitals non profit, maybe then it might not cost $1000/night in a private room or $250 for dorm style accomodations.

First, all hospitals STARTED as "non-profit". Starting in the late 70's (or so), they started being "bought out" by corporations. This trend has only accelerated, until today, there are precious few non-profits left. Second, where the HELL have YOU been living? Today, a SEMI-private room (2 people) runs $3000 a day. THere are no longer "dorm-style" rooms available. Anywhere. Recovery rooms and ICU are the last ones left. And exactly HOW would you "make" all hospitals non-profit? Have them nationalized by the government? How else would you do it?

yy, you asked several questions. I see it like this: disband medicare and medicaid (both enormous cash cows). Use that money to pay for private insurance for those that can't afford it. Seems simple enough to me.

...have you volunteered to pay for another's bills? No, we HAVE paid for others' bills. Many times. Have YOU? And exactly how much of YOUR paycheck do YOU give... to ANY charitable organization? We also took in a teen mom and her baby, AND her mother, for two months. And you have done...?

As to what types of care, I suggest you re-read some of my earlier posts, as I explained it there. If need be, I can copy and hilight the text in question, if you're having trouble reading it.

Both my wife and myself are certified in first aid and CPR. Our emergency medical kit (for use on others as well as us) is equipped for everything up to minor surgery.

Will your health care program treat crack babies with our money? That's another case of irresponsibility.

So, if I understand your stance on this, we should punish a newborn baby for the deeds done by his crack-ho mom? Man, what kind of creature are YOU? I've heard some cold-blooded sh*t in my time, but that pegged the meter. Tell ya what big boy. Why don't you take it upon yourself to patrol the hospitals in your area, locate, kidnap, and drown all the crack babies you find. Sounds like you're just the guy for the job.

You know what pisses me off about welfare? The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation bums.

Again, you need to actually READ my posts above. I have repeatedly said that I'm dead-set against welfare. Perhaps you're dyslexic and didn't catch that part?

Sumabich, I agree with every word you said.

Seronac, you said: As far as I'm concerned, charity (in the sense of providing for the less fortunate) belongs in the realm of religion and other non-profit organizations.

These organizations just don't have the financial depth to contribute adequately to health care.

CassidyGT: Medicare is the program for the elderly. Medicaid is the program for those in poverty. In order to qualify for Medicaid, you have to be INDIGENT. That is, own nothing, be homeless, and have less than $100 to your name. Many who need some help aren't in that class. Also, what of the 44 million who are not covered right now. Those are WORKING PEOPLE that can't afford the insurance. Should they take on that 5th job to pay for it? What about their kids, who never have a parent at home (latchkey), since they're both working 2 jobs?

I thought all hospitals, by law, had to take you in even if you had no insurance. Am I wrong about this?

Yes, you are. If you doubt me, I suggest you call your local hospitals. You may well find the experience enlightening.
 
Sorry Dennis, but as a physician, I can tell you that all hospitals have to take care of indigent patients. I see indigent hospital patients all of the time. We have a teaching hospital 4 blocks away and the private hospital doesn't dump patients to it. It's against the law. Additionally, I see and take care of CLINIC PATIENTS all of the time that are indigent. I simply hope and pray I can pay the bills with the paying patients I see. Most physicians, contrary to public opinion, do the right thing when it comes to patients. If I worked in some state-funded university program, I would even get PAID for indigent care. As it stands now, I don't. And I don't treat non-paying patients differently than paying ones. I recently did a treatment that cost me 1,200 out of pocket for the drug alone. Not to mention the free procedure that went along with it.

Westtexas
 
Dennis, It's not my little girl, but it IS my wife. And I haven't worked in 5 years since my third heart attack which was a long delayed effect of my injuries during the war. And me and my family are taking care of it. Us, not anyone who stole money from someone else to give to us.


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Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
68-70

[This message has been edited by TexasVet (edited August 11, 2000).]
 
Westtexas,
Most sincerely, "Hurrah for you!"
In EMS I've watched our local medical community in action. For emergencies, the rule is, "If the patients need it, they get it!"

Let's get the government out of medicine. Non-critical care (eg routine & long-term care) perhaps could be more affordable if we didn't have to support the thousands of people in the insurance and "oversight" bureaucracies causing our doctors to spend excessive time justifying their diagnoses and treatments.

Again, a pat on the back, Westtexas, to you and the other skilled professionals who have kept me and some of my family alive against the odds.


[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited August 11, 2000).]
 
Wow. Lots of emotions here.

I'm afraid I don't have any answers, but I can post some tid-bits from my own and my wife's experiences (wife is in her 3rd year of medical school...)

1) Government-controlled medical care scares me. We had a guy come into my unit (2/67 AR, in Germany) from 82nd. He'd jacked his shoulder up in a jump by getting the static-line coiled around his arm, and he'd been given increasing amounts of motrin for 9 months as "treatment" because all of their slots for that kind of surgery had been used up. He got fixed quickly once in our unit (USAEUR didn't have many troops on jump status, apparently), but that kind of medical “care” was common while I was in the service.

2) Malpractice insurance is expensive (something like $1M/year is a good price for a smaller practice around here) which is probably due to trial lawyers, but the numbers seem to indicate that this isn't a large part of the increase in medical costs...

3) According to the numbers my wife has seen, something like 90% of overall medical costs are accounted for by the last few weeks of life and the extraordinary measures doctors can take now (WestTexas -- correct me if you have better numbers). You want to reduce medical costs? Tell families that Mom/Grandma isn't going to get more care because while more could be done, there isn't much hope for a real recovery...

4) The amount of overhead due to government and insurance is outrageous. I remember a story in a Boardwatch editorial a few years back – the editor had gone in for something that was going to cost something like $350-500. When he told them he was paying with cash, they said “Oh, that’ll be $100 then.” They explained the difference in cost as being due to having to deal with the bureaucracy. I asked my wife about this (note she’s still in school), and her take was that the numbers might not be off by much, but that legally you might run into problems with those sorts of policies.

I don’t know what the answer is, but I’m no friend of medical insurance and HMO’s either. I wish there was a simple, easy solution here. I think the closest thing might be to get the government completely out of medical care – doctors are generally incredibly ethical people, and do what they can for people who honestly need help (which generally doesn’t include those who get care for a smoking-related illness, go out and continue smoking, and then come back in for another smoking-related illness). Lots of doctors do things like dedicate a day of the week for free medical care for children/poor/whatever – the only time I’ve heard of these policies being reduced is when too many of the “needy” roll up in brand new Expeditions with $500 outfits and cell phones to get a “deal.”

Take it for what is is/isn’t worth.
 
I've got a great idea! Let everyone who believes in universal health care voluntarily double their annual tax bill to pay for it! Put your money where your mouth is.
If someone feels passionately about relieving the plight of the homeless, go pick one up and feed, clothe and house him/her.

Etc., etc., etc.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnochGale:
Dennis - you have a heart - ignore the bile aimed at you. If a country can't help all of its citizens to have medical care - we stink.
Let's figure out a way to do it reasonably.

The initial point is one I agree with. Unless, the RKBA is moved away from an issue identified with old bitter cranks - as seen in the last discussion - kiss it good bye.
[/quote]
 
Another reason for the high cost of medical insurance is that despite good doctors, many
see it as a cash cow.

Several years ago when my mother had her catarracts removed, her original ophthalmologist insisted on being at the operation where he did nothing, then he visited her in the hospital and just asked
her how she felt. He charged her full price for these so-called visits. She was already
seen each day by the surgeon and residents.

Also, her G.P. when she was in her late 80's
wanted her to come in every three months to monitor her cholesterol - like it makes a difference then. Another 5 minute visit and
and full visit charge and lab work.

Those doctors milk old people who have money
unmercifully.

Doctors aren't hurting as a class. Some might be excellent and caring but lots are more interested in their investments. Studies show that when cuts in income occur because of price controls - very quickly ways are found to generate new income. When doctors own parts of labs - tests double.

The lack of self-policing also leads to insurance problems and high rates.
 
I found this thread before I found the one that triggered it, but I feel compelled to post before I lose my Muse.

There are several admittedly harsh realities we have to keep in mind, several of which have already been touched on.

1) There is no limit to what we as a society COULD spend on medical care. As long as services are provided w/o cost to the recipient, or with an artificially low cost, there is a virtually unlimited demand. We should make/allow everybody pay SOMETHING to receive treatment.

2) For any insured group, the total cost of all the medical care they receive can NOT exceed what the members of that group pay in as insurance premiums. It can't even equal the sum of contributions because of the costs of administration. If you make this group of insured people "all Americans" and the "insurance payers" all taxpayers, then the cost/benefit gets much, much worse. Anyone want to compare what it costs Blue Cross to pay health-care providers (as a percentage of premiums) to what it costs the Department of HHS to administer current needs-based "entitlements"?

DJO, you correctly opined that charities can not meet the financial burden of providing health care to those unable to pay. IMHO this is due to several things. Health care costs are out of whack because the prices are determined by health businesses who must price services not based on need or cost, but because of payment shifting and fear of malpractice liability. I believe charity could indeed provide care equal to what 80% of the rest of the world's population would consider to be magnificent care. They just can't provide what we've become accustomed to (and feel entitled to) here in the USA in 2000.

Just some food for thought.
 
In the early 80's, a friend of mine contracted RP (Retinitis Pigmentosa) in both eyes. After realizing that treatment wasn't available here (US), his family scrounged up the money to send him to Moscow. It seemed they had a medical treatment program there specifically for this.
Several trips over there for the treatments slowed the progress of the disease, but he lost the battle all the same.

Several things about that are being targeted in this discussion.

Medical treatment, and cost.

His problem was that this treatment wasn't being done here on humans, with all our compassion, and understanding for the effects it had on peoples lives.


Several things this guy, and his brother who went with him noticed however. In Moscow,
the streets were extremely clean, and the subways were sparkling, no graffitti, no trash, no punks running around creating havoc and crime.
Most everyone you saw was doing something. Either picking up trash containers, sweeping stairs, walks, etc...

They even made mention of how many armed military soldiers there were walking around, everywhere.

These guys were amazed the the Soviet Union was the only place where the one could get help.

If there is a moral to this story it should be fairly obvious.

That we live in a Capitalistic Society. Everything can be had for the right price.
Medical care for the masses is available in some form, and more so in a different political environment.
When you have HMO's telling you what kind of treatment you can get, and what not. Even when you're paying a decent part of the plan's cost, something's wrong with the system. That doesn't necessarily mean it should be totally trashed, and all the books completely rewritten.

HMO's are managed for a profit. That means part of your cost of medical is handed over to another party, and less applied to your medical care directly. So, it will cost more for you to get the same care, right?
In fact, if you were to drop a lot of the BS from the process, you would receive better care for less. And that is a BIG part of why so many people can't afford medical help.

Fact is, we live in a society where greed is encouraged. Where you're right to step all over other's to get what you want. Want that kid's shoes? Go knock the daylights, or kill him, to get them.
It would be easier to go get your own, but then the domination factor doesn't play into the equation either. And that, unfortunately a big part of our society too.

For the record. My HMO won't allow me to have surgery to correct my vision problem. They pay for a surgery procedure that nobody does anymore.. :rolleyes:
They do however pay a good part of the cost of the exams, and the glasses.

This is ridiculous, because the exams every two years, plus glasses, home and work prescips cast a bunch. I've already figured they've spent more money doing that than the surgery would have cost...

Here's one for you.
A couple years ago, my wife had to be admitted to the hospital for kidney stones.
I signed the papers for admittal, etc.
After all was said and done, I entered an agreemant with the local hospital for my share of the cost. Apparently I'd not placed the signature in the right place, and the hospital later turned me in for violation of the contract, even though I'd faithfully paid every payment on time.
When I confronted the Judge on the matter, I showed the Judge my copy of the agreement, and that I in fact did sign the paper, but I signed it below the line, instead on on the line. The Judge found for the hospital on the technicality of where my signature was, rather than on whether I had signed it.

So, the hospital sued me for damages, etc...
Even though I had been payin.
This was all about the hospital used a BS thing to get out of the contract, and make me get a loan and pay them in full. It's all about money, nothing less, nothing more.

So the next time someone says lets have some compassion about medical care, I think about that event.


[This message has been edited by Donny (edited August 11, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Donny (edited August 11, 2000).]
 
And that will have to do it for this thread. We're at 102K, and I'm locking it down.

Feel free to start another thread for the continuation of this discussion.

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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
 
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