Testing of rights/testing police

what you could do & what you should do....

What you can do & what you should do are 2 different things. ;)
As a firearms owner & armed professional for nearly 25 years, I don't think owning or carrying firearms just as fad or political statement is the right thing to do.
I, for one, wouldn't open carry to "engage civil discourse" with other citizens or to be a political figure for 2A causes.
I may update my CC license soon which has a new state law related to it saying open carry is legal under certain conditions(like if you bend over to tie a shoe and a sworn LE officer spots the firearm or if a strong breeze blows your jacket open).
If someone asks me about gun laws or what the state CC regulations are, then I'd tell them but I wouldn't be a shill for the gun industry.
I'd add too that many street cops are more concerned with firearms being stolen or new/entry level gun owners not being able to retain a firearm in a violent assault.
These are valid points to an extent but they(the sworn LE officers) should be aware of the open carry/gun laws or changes. It's not John or Mary Citizen's job to train/brief police officers & a armed citizen can't know or be aware of every safety concern a sworn LE officer may have when they come into contact with them.
 
I, for one, wouldn't open carry to "engage civil discourse" with other citizens or to be a political figure for 2A causes.
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Me neither, but I don't begrudge those that do.

I'd add too that many street cops are more concerned with firearms being stolen or new/entry level gun owners not being able to retain a firearm in a violent assault.
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Can you cite your sources? I've never heard that from a cop before. Heard it from regular Joes now and then though.

It's not John or Mary Citizen's job to train/brief police officers & a armed citizen can't know or be aware of every safety concern a sworn LE officer may have when they come into contact with them.
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I disagree (but that's me). If I see law enforcement harassing someone who isn't breaking any law, i think I would let the officer know that I'll be a good witness for the citizen without being confrontational. And, if I have a way to record the event, I certainly would. Difference is that I'm not looking for, or hoping for, a confrontation. I guess there are many people who would like to see someone arrested when they are looking for a confrontation while exercising their right to carry, or video record policy performing their duty, etc. I would get no satisfaction from that at all, the "haha they got what they deserved" reaction. I would get more satisfaction seeing a professional law enforcement officer that handles these situations in a way that is respectful and courteous, even when the citizen isn't. There are lots of those videos too. Oh, and I'm NOT willing to give up any rights because of the concerns of sworn LE officers if/when they approach me.
 
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I open carry around the homestead and sometimes I have to run into town for something. I have honestly forgotten I had the gun strapped on.

Only once did a police officer approach me and ask for my identification. It was one of those moments when as soon as you spot him, you remember you still have your sidearm strapped to your waist.

He asked for my ID, and although I did not have to give it to him, I did. He told me he (or the police) had gotten a call about an armed man at the shopping complex. We chatted a little while, I put the gun in the truck and went about my business.

As others have mentioned, the police have an obligation to check out things that are reported to them or they face even more problems. (Officer, there is an armed man by the elementary school... OK, I'll look in to it after I finish my lunch.)
 
In NH, the larger police departments are doing their job by responding to folks calling in their fears but seem to handle the calls professionally. The seacoast has at least one individual who is exercising the 2nd amendment and NH rights but seems to be patient with folks who do over react and has a relatively good relationship with the law enforcement folks who are obligated to occasionally turn out.

The most recent news article is available for now at http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20130628-NEWS-306280429

Persistence may result in progress.

Wes
 
One of the great things about living in the United States is that you're allowed to be stupid.

One of the unfortunate things about living in the United States is that your lawful albeit stupid actions may greatly impact others in a very negative way.

One of the great things about having lived and traveled overseas is seeing how other countries 'suffer fools harshly', taking the repercussions of stupidity out on the person exhibiting that behavior, and not the public in general.

I'm happy to reside in the United States, but realize that many of our rights are a single idiot / bozo act away from vanishing. In some ways that puts the onus on the rest of us to encourage restraint.
 
When the issue of open carry as a political statement comes up i'm reminded by the guy in TN who carried a Draco in the park: He painted the gun orange so the cops would not shoot him. He lost his court case and his concealed carry permit.
 
thallub noted
...painted the gun orange so the cops would not shoot him.
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Makes you wonder, and reminds me of the Darwin Awards, and why some don't make the top of the list.
 
Just a few of thoughts from an old cop.

Legal is legal. Period.

Legal activities aren't necessarily smart ones.

Intentionally tying up officers, to make a point, is an unnecessary diversion of manpower and can lead to a delayed response to an actual emergency.

If you play that game on enough cops, sooner or later it's going to end badly for at least one of you. Murphy is everywhere.

A hidden gun attracts no negative attention, it offers one the option of fading away unnoticed- or the element of surprise. Never underestimate the value of any of them.
 
Response to post #42....

To answer post #42, author & sworn LE officer Massad Ayoob wrote a recent gun press article about weapon rentention holsters/open carry. He brought up some of the points I made here.
The NRA also quoted a Florida county sheriff(who has since retired) who testified before the Florida Assembly. The sheriff; Coates or Caoetes(who I think was in Pasco County for many years) griped about how private citizens lacked formal skill training and their firearms would be snatched or stolen in real confrontations, :rolleyes:.
There are 2 Florida sheriffs with similar names(but different spellings) so don't hold me to it.

As for the "good witness" bit, Id advise contacting the LE agency's non emergency phone # then requesting a area supervisor or patrol supervisor/watch commander. You can speak with them & explain what you saw or heard. Many sheriffs & police chiefs now have emails or direct lines to address citizen complaints.
NOTE: Not all police supervisors or commanders will be honest & many use the ole CYA mindset, :rolleyes:. Be ready to go to the media or hire a atty if things go sideways.
BTW, Im not "cop bashing", I had a dispute with a small PD chief(30 sworn LE officers) in the late 1990s. The same chief was later convicted on several felony counts for stealing drug $$$. I can provide more details by PM if you want to research the details.

Id close by saying that many chiefs & supervisors are making efforts to improve conditions. Sanford Florida(the site of the Zimmerman-Martin event) hired a new police chief from IL who went to the highly respected FBI National Academy. Chief Smith started a new SOP requiring Sanford PD officers to wear a small DV camera & recording of all field interviews/traffic stops.

ClydeFrog
 
Coates or Caoetes(who I think was in Pasco County for many years) griped about how private citizens lacked formal skill training and their firearms would be snatched or stolen in real confrontations,
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Several sheriffs here in Virginia presented the same sort of argument to the General Assembly, and pretty much showed everyone their hineys because they couldn't present a single case where an inept carrier was attacked with their own weapon, or lost it somehow in a confrontation. The vast majority of sheriffs think logically, and scoffed at them. So, where's the beef?

As for the "good witness" bit, Id advise contacting the LE agency's non emergency phone # then requesting a area supervisor.....
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Nothing, I repeat, nothing works for you better than video and civilian eye witnesses. That's just a fact.

Not all police supervisors or commanders will be honest & many use the ole CYA mindset, . Be ready to go to the media or hire a atty if things go sideways.
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Good points! How do you figure out which ones will fall on their swords rather than do the CYA thing? Thanks for understanding my argument.

Id close by saying that many chiefs & supervisors are making efforts to improve conditions........Chief Smith started a new SOP requiring Sanford PD officers to wear a small DV camera & recording of all field interviews/traffic stops.
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That's great! But what's the reason? Is it to keep them nice, or is it to protect them in court? Either way, like I said, there's nothing better than video and eye witnesses (video being preferable because it is unimpeachable).
 
QUOTE-trg42 wraglefragle Imagine if someone called up and said they saw someone with a gun, the police did nothing and the person was in fact a criminal and did something to break the law?
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^Oh the horror...

"someone with a gun" "criminal and did something to break the law"

Maybe to dispel ignorance. :rolleyes:
 
"Lie" witnesses....

I would agree that a good cell phone or iPad2 with audio/video may be practical for LE contacts or if you witness a criminal act but I strongly disagree with the idea that all "eye witnesses" are able or even willing to tell the full truth.

People see what they want to see & sometimes distort the facts. Stress, fear, noise etc can also distort or disorient a "eye-witness".
As a security officer working on various sites & details(retail, hotels/resorts, apt & condo bldgs, estate security, VIP protection, etc) I've dealt with many events where "witnesses" were either wrong or where they lied about the conditions.

Some people are honest & have morals or ethics but sometimes they may have a bias or a agenda & distort what really occurs in a incident.

CF
 
CF I totally agree. I never said that "all" eye witnesses are helpful, and I did say I prefer video because it is unimpeachable. I should have made it clear that the good eye witnesses I'm talking about aren't blind, biased, or liars. If you have an eye witness that corroborates your story, you can't do much better unless you have video/audio. And video/audio is way, way superior to the best eye witness IMHO.
 
I despise when they do those theatrics. They call for it, they are within their "rights" but it's SOP for the police to stop you, I.D. you to make sure you're not a psychopath and are legally allowed to even have that gun. When they start the whole "you're illegally detaining me for doing something legal" I roll my eyes so hard I feel I'm going to go blind for a couple days. Imagine if criminals did that? Someone called the police on you. Most of them aren't used to being around guns all day like we are. Most of them aren't a part of our world. Purposely rattling their cages for a response you initially wanted anyways (hence the camera) is not a good way to fight for your rights.

I think it's the most lame thing you can do, to stir up LE for negative attention.
 
it's SOP for the police to stop you, I.D. you to make sure you're not a psychopath and are legally allowed to even have that gun.
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Well, it's SOP for them to "try" to do those things, but you aren't obliged to submit to any of it, unless of course you are being detained for a legitimate reason (something other than exercising your rights). Ever hear of "innocent until proven guilty"? Why would a cop think I'm psychopath or guilty of illegally having a gun if I'm not doing anything wrong? Still, I think these videos are educational (shows you what you should and shouldn't do, even if there's a lot of shouldn't in there), interesting, and entertaining. Would you please video yourself rolling your eyes like that? That would be entertaining too. :D
 
In Arkansas (&, I would wager, in most jurisdictions), the police are authorized to make a brief, warrantless stop of anyone they "reasonably suspect" has engaged in, or is about to engage in, criminal conduct. The reason for such a stop is often simply to determine the lawfulness of the actor's conduct.

Yes, yes, I've heard the argument that "as a protected constitutional right, carrying a gun cannot be the basis for reasonable suspicion." However, the circumstances under which a firearm is carried may well play a role in determining the reasonableness of the stop. If I'm carrying a camo shotgun in late December while wearing hip waders 100 ft from the entry into the duck woods, then it's unlikely that I'm engaged in bank robbery. OTOH, if I'm carrying an AR-15 down Main Street in Dallas, a court may well find it reasonable for an officer to stop me in an effort to determine the lawfulness of my conduct.

I actually use one of the "Open Carrier vs. Police" videos to teach about Terry stops in my ConLaw class. I think it was this one: http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Sa...ns-Police-contacts-with-open-carry-advocates/
 
Ever hear of "innocent until proven guilty"?
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Yep. I've also heard of "disturbing the peace," which can be invoked, especially when Joe Bob waltzes into the local coffee shop with a military rifle slung over his shoulder and a demeanor that suggests confrontation. I've also heard of "obstruction," which can come up if someone's disruptive enough.

Why would a cop think I'm psychopath or guilty of illegally having a gun if I'm not doing anything wrong?
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"Wrong" is subjective. A guy hunting in the woods is one thing. A guy walking down a busy roadway during rush hour with a revolver in his hand is another.

I actually use one of the "Open Carrier vs. Police" videos to teach about Terry stops in my ConLaw class.
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I'm familiar with that one, and the officer handled himself well. The conversation in that video also reinforces my point that the folks engaging in this behavior often know less about the law than they think.
 
Yep. I've also heard of "disturbing the peace," which can be invoked, especially when Joe Bob waltzes into the local coffee shop with a military rifle slung over his shoulder and a demeanor that suggests confrontation. I've also heard of "obstruction," which can come up if someone's disruptive enough.
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Agree. And that's where keeping calm and recording the event can keep you from getting trumped up charges if a cop wishes to do so. First off, I've learned from these videos (not just the ones that you linked) that people talk too much. If you tell the cop that you are within your rights, and he doesn't say "oh well in that case have a good day, bye bye", you won't convince him by saying it again, and again, and again. I would make boring videos. The cop in that first video handled the AR carrying guy very well. I think that is a case of reasonable suspicion that would hold up in court.

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Why would a cop think I'm psychopath or guilty of illegally having a gun if I'm not doing anything wrong?

"Wrong" is subjective. A guy hunting in the woods is one thing. A guy walking down a busy roadway during rush hour with a revolver in his hand is another.
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Tom, walking down a busy roadway with a revolver "in his hand" is wrong. Holstered where lawful, isn't.
 
Post #55, drama queens....

I agree with post #55. If a gun owner or 2A supporter wants to stir up conflicts or start "range wars"(a MP slang term for petty disputes between MP companies or LE agencies) by carrying firearms then they need to get a hobby or maybe a better past-time(volunteer work, stamp collecting, photography, etc).

Id add that if a gunner or hard-charger wants to post a online clip, tell the truth, don't lie, distort or edit remarks, yell crass insults or use excessive profanity.
Sometimes, video can work in a sworn LE officer's favor.
About 2mo ago, the metro PD in my medium size city(800 sworn LE officers) gave a patrol officer a - write up & HR action because he went off on a subject who spat on him.
The police department's own citizen review board watched the video of the event & sided with the police officer!

Cops have a tough job but need to maintain a high level of standards & ethics.
They are not robots or perfect(see the recent Sidney NE police video) but acting like a jerk to anger them isn't ethical either.

CF
 
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