Tell me the truth about defending your property
- Thread starter Dust_Devil
- Start date
Under the scenario posed in the original post, be a good witness, yell and draw attention to this so others may be witnesses as well. Jump in front of him? Terrible idea. Throw a shopping cart through the glass? He crashes and kills someones child..bad idea. Shooting at him? Only if you want to loose your ability to own and carry guns for life...stupid idea.
On the other hand I come out and find someone in my car and they will be getting their butt kicked forthwith or I'll take a whippin' trying. This is a more probable scenario if you are driving a late model vehicle. A vehicle with transponder keys is going nowhere without a key or a wrecker. Only the most accomplished car thieves are going to be able to start a late model car not equipped with transponder keys.
I think you need a security system with an ignition disconnect.
kennybs plbg
New member
Blanket statements as such are only your opinions, based on your stupidity not fact.
Funny I feel like I'm bashing people when all I'm doing is repeating what they said, go figure.
kenny b
FMUStewart
New member
Its about respect...
Ok, I've been reading these forums for a long time and have read a lot of posts like this....
It disgusts me that a criminal's rights are put before victim's rights in this day and age. It doesn't matter if it is your life or property. The law has abiding citizens so afraid to stand up for their own rights to life, liberty, and the American way, that some people can run around and steal stuff like they were in a grocery market.
I was raised NOT to think "What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine." Therefore, What's mine is mine and if you think otherwise then there's trouble.
People seem to focus on cars...maybe its because its the 2nd largest investment people usually make in their lives...but its not about investment, its about respect...
Words are words, so say anything you want. The shouted insult is fine. Make yourself look like an ass, even at my expense - I don't care. But as soon as you start to deprive me of life, liberty, or the American way (Which includes ownership of material possesions), you've chosen to put your life in my hands. ..end of story.
Sure you get the chance to retreat, stop, run like hell, but only one. You cross that and you've put the ball back in my court.
I agree with hanging horse rustlers like we did 120 years ago. You're a menace to society and IMO disrespecting the very beliefs and foundations that this country was founded on - therefore, you have just commited treason.
Have a great Eester everyone.
Stew
P.S. You're still responsible for where that round ends up or what it does, so you'd better be damn sure...
Ok, I've been reading these forums for a long time and have read a lot of posts like this....
It disgusts me that a criminal's rights are put before victim's rights in this day and age. It doesn't matter if it is your life or property. The law has abiding citizens so afraid to stand up for their own rights to life, liberty, and the American way, that some people can run around and steal stuff like they were in a grocery market.
I was raised NOT to think "What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine." Therefore, What's mine is mine and if you think otherwise then there's trouble.
People seem to focus on cars...maybe its because its the 2nd largest investment people usually make in their lives...but its not about investment, its about respect...
Words are words, so say anything you want. The shouted insult is fine. Make yourself look like an ass, even at my expense - I don't care. But as soon as you start to deprive me of life, liberty, or the American way (Which includes ownership of material possesions), you've chosen to put your life in my hands. ..end of story.
Sure you get the chance to retreat, stop, run like hell, but only one. You cross that and you've put the ball back in my court.
I agree with hanging horse rustlers like we did 120 years ago. You're a menace to society and IMO disrespecting the very beliefs and foundations that this country was founded on - therefore, you have just commited treason.
Have a great Eester everyone.
Stew
P.S. You're still responsible for where that round ends up or what it does, so you'd better be damn sure...
a car is not worth a life...let it go,try to get a discription of the driver and the direction its going-call the police and file an insurance report.
Ive had 2 times where punks tried getting my car with me still in it.one got broken fingers from getting the door slammed shut, the other time,they fell off.much to their surprise,I wasnt a willing victim, but still a different situation than a parked car with nobody in it.
never draw your gun unless you intend to use it...responsable for where those rounds go too.stay safe.
Ive had 2 times where punks tried getting my car with me still in it.one got broken fingers from getting the door slammed shut, the other time,they fell off.much to their surprise,I wasnt a willing victim, but still a different situation than a parked car with nobody in it.
never draw your gun unless you intend to use it...responsable for where those rounds go too.stay safe.
kennybs plbg
New member
Thanks Stew,
I for one welcome your view and also agree.
kenny b
I for one welcome your view and also agree.
kenny b
I see a greater "respect" for property rights than human life as a sure sign of a dying civilization.
That doesn't mean you don't have a right to resist theft. And it doesn't mean that you don't meet violence with violence. But some of you are pronouncing your "right" to defend you property in philosophical terms, but I would like to hear the practical side of what you're in favor of.
At what dollar amount are you going to use deadly force? How much money has to be in your wallet for you to shoot at the escaping pick pocket? What kind of car are you going to execute the thief behind the wheel for?
Let's stop BS'ing around the core of this. I'd like to hear from Kenny, Stew, 2A and any other supporters under what minimum theft situation they would feel comfortable killing for. Don't talk about "the American Way" or anything else not as concrete as the object being stolen and the life taken for it.
That doesn't mean you don't have a right to resist theft. And it doesn't mean that you don't meet violence with violence. But some of you are pronouncing your "right" to defend you property in philosophical terms, but I would like to hear the practical side of what you're in favor of.
At what dollar amount are you going to use deadly force? How much money has to be in your wallet for you to shoot at the escaping pick pocket? What kind of car are you going to execute the thief behind the wheel for?
Let's stop BS'ing around the core of this. I'd like to hear from Kenny, Stew, 2A and any other supporters under what minimum theft situation they would feel comfortable killing for. Don't talk about "the American Way" or anything else not as concrete as the object being stolen and the life taken for it.
Look at it this way. The deductible on your car insurance is how much? $1000?
That will buy 4 hours of a good attorney's time. If you shoot someone, you'll need a whole heck of a lot more than 4 hours of an attorney's time.
Let him go -- it will be a whole heck of a lot cheaper and you won't risk enjoying an extended stay in the grey-bar hotel with your new friend Bubba.
That will buy 4 hours of a good attorney's time. If you shoot someone, you'll need a whole heck of a lot more than 4 hours of an attorney's time.
Let him go -- it will be a whole heck of a lot cheaper and you won't risk enjoying an extended stay in the grey-bar hotel with your new friend Bubba.
FMUStewart
New member
Call me an extremist, but I don't draw the line at any monetary value. For I am a generous person, and simply asking for something might result in a suprising "Yes." - And since the main object here seems to be cars, people donate those all the time to organizations such as Charity Motors. - I don't see anying BSing around the core of this. Maybe American Way isn't the right term...American Dream would be better suited...
Our country was FOUNDED on fighting for that American Dream of life, liberty, and a free existance. We have already killed for these things, and YOU Handy, have benifited from this your entire life. Do you not support that, Handy?
And on the inevitible rebuttel of the theif having the same rights as I, don't try it. For victim's rights trump criminal's rights...period. Its sickening to hear about pro-criminal laws (props to Florida for their "Right to Fight" law).
If this logic is followed, the Stamp Act of 1765 should still be around. After all, your hard earned money...well its just money. Its just your sweat, tears, blood, sacrifices, and time spent EARNING it.
Furthermore, why don't we consider the costs to society for such passivism....
The FBI's 2002 Uniform Crime Report (UCR - released October 27, 2003) indicates there were more than 1.2 million motor vehicle thefts in the United States in 2002 with an estimated value of approximately $8.4 billion dollars.
Insurance Information Institute:
# Only 13.0 percent of thefts were cleared by arrests in 2004.
Really shows the effectiveness of our Law Enforcement, now doesn't it?
Now lets factor in other things....Insurance Premium increases, lost productivity and earnings (how am I going to get to work while this gets settled), the cost of the above mentioned arrests (manpower, resources, etc.)...to name a few
What about the illegal activities that these stolen vehicles are used for at times...the domino effect is quite long.
So, in defending my tangible property (using cars as ONE example), I'm not only protecting my own rights and liberties, I'm also making it EASIER for you to rightfully obtain yours (Think of where all of this $$ could be used for or what our law enforcement resources could be doing)...
If someone who can't seem to get the picture of the country we life in is taken out of the mix, so be it. That's one less unjustified horse's ass to feed.
Stew
Scott Conklin
New member
I believe, Handy, I outlined my standards VERY clearly as they relate to emotional value and not monetary. Seems, as I noted in another thread, you don't really read the parts you don't like...
FMUStewart
New member
This is quite a selfish post. By mention of the dedictible on your car insurance. This implies that the poster is saying "I'm only out $1,000...oh well." It also means that other people are out a few hunded bucks a year to keep themselves insured. Quantify this by the number of insured motorists in this country and there's your pot full of gold.
Unfortunatly its being squandered away to protect criminal's (non-existent) rights.
Stew
leadcounsel
Moderator
Laws vary by state. Check your state laws. Generally speaking you can only use deadly force to protect your own life or the life of a 3rd party from imminent deadly force (eg. the bad guy has a weapon and appears to be going to use it).
So, no you cannot shoot a perp for stealing your car. Say the perp has a crowbar and is prying into your car or has just broken your window. You approach him to stop the theft, which you can legally do (as a citizen you can intervene in the commission of a felony). Since he has a weapon, you may now draw your weapon to protect yourself. If the perp is driving off in your car, say toward you or other people who have to leap out of the way, now he has committed assault with a deadly weapon (car) and you can likely use deadly force to prevent the commission of a violent felony against people. However, I would NOT recommend just blasting away at a distant moving target in public. In your scenario you have a moment to decide, as you're standing in the lot and the perp is driving toward you, whether to draw and fire OR leap out of the way... easy choice. LEAP!
Best advice is really to just avoid contact and call the police and have auto insurance. Or detonate your remote controlled bomb!
However, my answer is strictly confined within the LAWS.
My true answer, the way I see society SHOULD operate, is a very tough stance on criminal behavior. I like the old west. Someone is stealin' your horse, you shoot the bastard! Seriously though, we have become such a passivist nation that it creates laziness and a high demand for larger law enforcement to coddle us and take care of things that WE should EACH take individual responsibility for. Take personal safety. High gun ownership and CCW licenses are proven to reduce violent crime rates. Conversely, passivist states like CA have higher violent crime rates because people cannot carry guns and their only option is relying on the cops. We have built a society where the government is responsible for everything including personal secuirty. The problem is that the government doesn't readily accept this role nor can it practically conduct it.
The cost to society and you personally to watch a perp steal your car is immense. Dollars alone, figure your deductible (from $250-1000), lost wages, lost productivity (this police report and claim will cost you many hours of work and unproductive waiting around); the police department has to hire more people to search for the car, impound it, record it, contact you, store it etc. It's very expensive! Conversely, if our laws allowed defense of property over a certain dollar value (say $100 or $500) etc. then crimes of this nature may decrease. I don't see it as placing a dollar value on a life, but instead placing a value on living in a crime free society. We ALL would benefit from you putting a $0.25 solution through the chest of a perp stealing your car in reduced auto theft, reduced auto insurance, reduced cost of necessary alarm and disabling electronic systems on cars, reduced police force etc.
I'm personally for defending property with deadly force, but I am also law abiding and recognize that I can LEGALLY only use deadly force with the imminent threat of deadly force.... that's why the perp will always have a weapon in his hand when the cops get there!
So, no you cannot shoot a perp for stealing your car. Say the perp has a crowbar and is prying into your car or has just broken your window. You approach him to stop the theft, which you can legally do (as a citizen you can intervene in the commission of a felony). Since he has a weapon, you may now draw your weapon to protect yourself. If the perp is driving off in your car, say toward you or other people who have to leap out of the way, now he has committed assault with a deadly weapon (car) and you can likely use deadly force to prevent the commission of a violent felony against people. However, I would NOT recommend just blasting away at a distant moving target in public. In your scenario you have a moment to decide, as you're standing in the lot and the perp is driving toward you, whether to draw and fire OR leap out of the way... easy choice. LEAP!
Best advice is really to just avoid contact and call the police and have auto insurance. Or detonate your remote controlled bomb!
However, my answer is strictly confined within the LAWS.
My true answer, the way I see society SHOULD operate, is a very tough stance on criminal behavior. I like the old west. Someone is stealin' your horse, you shoot the bastard! Seriously though, we have become such a passivist nation that it creates laziness and a high demand for larger law enforcement to coddle us and take care of things that WE should EACH take individual responsibility for. Take personal safety. High gun ownership and CCW licenses are proven to reduce violent crime rates. Conversely, passivist states like CA have higher violent crime rates because people cannot carry guns and their only option is relying on the cops. We have built a society where the government is responsible for everything including personal secuirty. The problem is that the government doesn't readily accept this role nor can it practically conduct it.
The cost to society and you personally to watch a perp steal your car is immense. Dollars alone, figure your deductible (from $250-1000), lost wages, lost productivity (this police report and claim will cost you many hours of work and unproductive waiting around); the police department has to hire more people to search for the car, impound it, record it, contact you, store it etc. It's very expensive! Conversely, if our laws allowed defense of property over a certain dollar value (say $100 or $500) etc. then crimes of this nature may decrease. I don't see it as placing a dollar value on a life, but instead placing a value on living in a crime free society. We ALL would benefit from you putting a $0.25 solution through the chest of a perp stealing your car in reduced auto theft, reduced auto insurance, reduced cost of necessary alarm and disabling electronic systems on cars, reduced police force etc.
I'm personally for defending property with deadly force, but I am also law abiding and recognize that I can LEGALLY only use deadly force with the imminent threat of deadly force.... that's why the perp will always have a weapon in his hand when the cops get there!
kennybs plbg
New member
As I stated in my first post, Its not all about the property being lost.
I have clearly documented my position, and so have others. No one mentions pulling a weapon as a first choice and blasting away, these are your words not ours. Maybe you should re-read instead of everyone reposting.
kenny b
steelheart
Moderator
Do the right thing and you still lose
In other words, your own insurance company will screw you silly and you will lose alot of money, thanks to the scumbag thief who stole your car. You can sue him for your losses, but good luck actually getting any money in your hand as a result.
Only in America...:barf:
Bottom line: It will still cost you less than competent legal counsel to defend against a murder or manslaughter charge, though. Alot less.
+1. Keep in mind though that you will have your deductible subtrcted from your insurance settlement, and the insurance company will pay you dealer wholesale for your lost car, not the retiail cost you will have to pay in order to replace it.
In other words, your own insurance company will screw you silly and you will lose alot of money, thanks to the scumbag thief who stole your car. You can sue him for your losses, but good luck actually getting any money in your hand as a result.
Only in America...:barf:
Bottom line: It will still cost you less than competent legal counsel to defend against a murder or manslaughter charge, though. Alot less.
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The problem I'm having, Kenny, is that you haven't even been consistant. You stated one post "If he displayed a weapon he would be shot in self defense. My weapon would never be pulled until that time.", but then go on to heartily agree with Stew, who says:
"I agree with hanging horse rustlers like we did 120 years ago." So I guess I was wrong about Stew - he did clearly state that the life of any thief is his to take.
But when 2A "outlined [his] standards VERY clearly" it was "Some property really can't be replaced, or at least the memories that are a part of it, and the SOB that tries to steal it is either taking me too or getting his ass kicked... So I guess the point is, it depends. The wife's 'Burb? Hey, knock yourself out. That old Caddy? We're going to have a fight on our hands... Would apply for most things I'd guess." From this I cannot tell how you feel about the original topic, since "ass kicked" in the context of gun play isn't real clear, and that's what the thread is about.
So, Stew would kill an unarmed robber, Kenny both agrees with him and wouldn't do it (because he isn't armed)
, and with 2A "it depends" in a number of regards since he hasn't really clarified his position in regards to lethal force vs. "ass kicking".
Clear as mud! Thanks for the response!
"I agree with hanging horse rustlers like we did 120 years ago." So I guess I was wrong about Stew - he did clearly state that the life of any thief is his to take.
But when 2A "outlined [his] standards VERY clearly" it was "Some property really can't be replaced, or at least the memories that are a part of it, and the SOB that tries to steal it is either taking me too or getting his ass kicked... So I guess the point is, it depends. The wife's 'Burb? Hey, knock yourself out. That old Caddy? We're going to have a fight on our hands... Would apply for most things I'd guess." From this I cannot tell how you feel about the original topic, since "ass kicked" in the context of gun play isn't real clear, and that's what the thread is about.
So, Stew would kill an unarmed robber, Kenny both agrees with him and wouldn't do it (because he isn't armed)
, and with 2A "it depends" in a number of regards since he hasn't really clarified his position in regards to lethal force vs. "ass kicking".Clear as mud! Thanks for the response!
More like 100
I personally think that "aggravted" thievery and armed robbery should be a capitol offense... and rape and assault with intent to kill and betraying the public trust ie, fraud and graft and drug pushing and any other form of enslavement like child porn and prostitution and many other crimes should be capital offenses in one way or another.
BUT the reason society held with hanging horse thieves is that they were basically "dry gulching" the victim, stealing their most valuable posession and indirectly threatening their lives... and/or their only means of support.
It's a great deterrent that will prevent the perp from committing another crime... and possibly hurting or killing future victims...
FMUStewart
New member
Don't put your own twist on my words Handy. The topic of this thread indicates that this person is IN THE ACT of committing such a theft...
Would I kill an unarmed robber? That's his choice to make. If he stops his activity and leaves, taking the threat to myself and my property with him, then no.
Should he continue his activity and not heed the verbal warnings on his life...
Should he come after me (even if he is unarmed) at ANY time during the encounter....you bet. After all, if they continue it would stand to reason that in their mind, possession of my <insert whatever they're trying to steal..car> is more important to THEM than their own life...
Stew
FMUStewart
New member
That's my understanding as well, Fal.
Stew