Tell me if I'm full of B.S.!
- Thread starter Mylhouse
- Start date
The old salt at the range told me that women are better shooters because they naturally are more inclined to breath from their abdomen.
I always thought the gun mags shot their groups from a Ransom rest. In other words they were testing the inherent accuracy of the firearm, with out the added inaccuracy of the shooter.
I always thought the gun mags shot their groups from a Ransom rest. In other words they were testing the inherent accuracy of the firearm, with out the added inaccuracy of the shooter.
Hi, folks,
Here I am intruding again.
Big G, I refuse to name names, but I KNOW some of those gun writers are full of beans and BS. Remember Mel Tappan?
25 yards is usually used because it is a standard target shooting distance, and most ranges are set up with 25 and 50 yard targets. And some of the writers may shoot at that distance. But I remember seeing one article in which the writer describes his "25 yard" groups. Unfortunately, he showed the targets and one was clearly marked "7 yards". Ooops!
Jim
Here I am intruding again.
Big G, I refuse to name names, but I KNOW some of those gun writers are full of beans and BS. Remember Mel Tappan?
25 yards is usually used because it is a standard target shooting distance, and most ranges are set up with 25 and 50 yard targets. And some of the writers may shoot at that distance. But I remember seeing one article in which the writer describes his "25 yard" groups. Unfortunately, he showed the targets and one was clearly marked "7 yards". Ooops!
Jim
Most 10 lb. walleye shrink to six with electronic scales. A good many 30-inch mule deer shrink to 26 inches when the guy from SCI pulls out his 1/4-inch steel tape. However, people do catch 10 lb. walleye and there are many trophy rooms with 30 inch deer in them.
Allow me to share the most incredible shot I ever made and the most incredible shot I have ever witnessed. I was antelope hunting with two friends many years ago when we happened upon a pretty decent buck antelope near Lysite, Wyoming. I was driving so I stopped and asked if either of them wanted to take the shot. One was using a Thompson/Center Super 14 and the other had an old 722 Remington with peep sights. They told me the goat was too far and since it was opening morning they figured we could do better anyway. I called them wimps and told them I was going to "double action bingo" the antelope in the neck with my .44 mag. I got out of the truck and aimed several feet over the critter and several feet in front of him to allow for wind and his movement. I fired one round with my open sighted Model 29 double action sending a 240 grain slug downrange. Unethical and stupid? Absolutely. Would I do it again? Never. The bullet killed the antelope instantly striking him right behind the ear. The distance was just over 175 yards.
When I was just a kid I was hunting jackrabbits at night (when it was legal) with a another young and dumb guy south of Laramie, Wyoming. We were shooting the rabbits for a mink farm and at 30 cents a piece we were picking up a good piece of change. My buddy asked me if I had a .410 shotgun I could bring along so he could shoot up a bunch of ammo some guy had given him. I said sure and threw in my old single shot bolt action shotgun. We were driving down a private ranch road near the Wooden Shoe ranch when an exceptionally frisky jackrabbit decided to race us. As I was driving down the road with the rabbit running along side my friend asked me to stop the truck. At the time the request seemed very unreasonable since the brakes didn’t work worth a hoot. I told him he had a shotgun so he should be able to hit the critter while we were both on the run. While holding the spotlight in one had and the shotgun in the other he shot at the running rabbit out of a moving vehicle rolling along at about 15 miles per hour. Stupid, stupid, unethical, stupid, moronic behavior. We needed our butts kicked clear up around our shoulders. The rabbit rolled up dead in a little ball as my buddy let out a victorious yell. I told him it was no big deal, after all he had a .410 shotgun. He smiled an evil grin and said one word, “Slugs”.
By the way, there are many shooters who have moa rifles and lots of folks have shot 2 inch groups at 25 yards offhand. These are simply exceptional shooters with exceptional equipment having an exceptional day.
Allow me to share the most incredible shot I ever made and the most incredible shot I have ever witnessed. I was antelope hunting with two friends many years ago when we happened upon a pretty decent buck antelope near Lysite, Wyoming. I was driving so I stopped and asked if either of them wanted to take the shot. One was using a Thompson/Center Super 14 and the other had an old 722 Remington with peep sights. They told me the goat was too far and since it was opening morning they figured we could do better anyway. I called them wimps and told them I was going to "double action bingo" the antelope in the neck with my .44 mag. I got out of the truck and aimed several feet over the critter and several feet in front of him to allow for wind and his movement. I fired one round with my open sighted Model 29 double action sending a 240 grain slug downrange. Unethical and stupid? Absolutely. Would I do it again? Never. The bullet killed the antelope instantly striking him right behind the ear. The distance was just over 175 yards.
When I was just a kid I was hunting jackrabbits at night (when it was legal) with a another young and dumb guy south of Laramie, Wyoming. We were shooting the rabbits for a mink farm and at 30 cents a piece we were picking up a good piece of change. My buddy asked me if I had a .410 shotgun I could bring along so he could shoot up a bunch of ammo some guy had given him. I said sure and threw in my old single shot bolt action shotgun. We were driving down a private ranch road near the Wooden Shoe ranch when an exceptionally frisky jackrabbit decided to race us. As I was driving down the road with the rabbit running along side my friend asked me to stop the truck. At the time the request seemed very unreasonable since the brakes didn’t work worth a hoot. I told him he had a shotgun so he should be able to hit the critter while we were both on the run. While holding the spotlight in one had and the shotgun in the other he shot at the running rabbit out of a moving vehicle rolling along at about 15 miles per hour. Stupid, stupid, unethical, stupid, moronic behavior. We needed our butts kicked clear up around our shoulders. The rabbit rolled up dead in a little ball as my buddy let out a victorious yell. I told him it was no big deal, after all he had a .410 shotgun. He smiled an evil grin and said one word, “Slugs”.
By the way, there are many shooters who have moa rifles and lots of folks have shot 2 inch groups at 25 yards offhand. These are simply exceptional shooters with exceptional equipment having an exceptional day.
Thanks, guys. Your posts pretty much answered my question. Hey, Ben, props to you-great minds think alike.
I don't question incredible shots or strings of shots can be made, I've made a few myself. And I wasn't talking so much in particular about the gun rags, because I know that almost always they use a Ransom, or at the very least, a sandbag rest. I'm talking about goobers that hang out at gunshops all day, giving you their opinions even when you don't ask for it. I'm talking about gun shop salesmen that make $6/hr that act like they are Bob Munden and treat you like dung, telling you to look at a "real" gun when you ask to see the new $300 Ruger or EAA. And I'm talking about people who anonymously post from their computer terminal, giving "advice" to novice shooters who come here seeking legitimate answers. These inflated claims give the newbie unrealistic expectations.
OK, rant mode off. I don't want to come off as an a**hole on this site because I like all you guys and spend a few hours a week reading your entertaining posts. I guess I'm a pessimistic, skeptical guy that's been forced fed BS from the time I was born to the present day from sources such as our tyrannical, er, I mean benevolent Gummint (as BigG likes to say). I have a sense of humor. I really do! If you don't believe me, you can always do what the heading says...
I don't question incredible shots or strings of shots can be made, I've made a few myself. And I wasn't talking so much in particular about the gun rags, because I know that almost always they use a Ransom, or at the very least, a sandbag rest. I'm talking about goobers that hang out at gunshops all day, giving you their opinions even when you don't ask for it. I'm talking about gun shop salesmen that make $6/hr that act like they are Bob Munden and treat you like dung, telling you to look at a "real" gun when you ask to see the new $300 Ruger or EAA. And I'm talking about people who anonymously post from their computer terminal, giving "advice" to novice shooters who come here seeking legitimate answers. These inflated claims give the newbie unrealistic expectations.
OK, rant mode off. I don't want to come off as an a**hole on this site because I like all you guys and spend a few hours a week reading your entertaining posts. I guess I'm a pessimistic, skeptical guy that's been forced fed BS from the time I was born to the present day from sources such as our tyrannical, er, I mean benevolent Gummint (as BigG likes to say). I have a sense of humor. I really do! If you don't believe me, you can always do what the heading says...
Mylhouse:
Your latest post clears things right up. Yeah, I agree with you 100 per cent. I have run into countless guys behind the counter that peddle more crap than a fertilizer salesman. Their behavior really confuses legitimate customers who need solid advice, not fairy tales. You are right on.
Your latest post clears things right up. Yeah, I agree with you 100 per cent. I have run into countless guys behind the counter that peddle more crap than a fertilizer salesman. Their behavior really confuses legitimate customers who need solid advice, not fairy tales. You are right on.
Peter M. Eick
New member
Mylhouse,
I read your thread and can understand your comments. I own 2 Les Baer Custom 1911's. One has his 3" 50 yard guarantee and the other is a 2" 50 yard guarantee. I shoot only 230 grn FMJ's with bullseye, set up for target shooting. At 15 yards, if I really try, I can shoot a magazine (7 rnds) and just barely cover the group with a dollar piece. At 25 yards, off a rest I can usually do about 2 to 2.5" and standing maybe 3 to 3.5". When the group falls apart I know it is my fault not the Baer's.
I can see your point though, when I read about people shooting great groups, sub 2" at 25 yards with "conventional" arms like the glocks, sigs, rugers etc. I have to wonder how they got such a "cherry" firearm. I certainly have not had such luck with non-custom arms. I compare my Baer's to my other pistols and all of them pale in comparison, not as tight or smooth or consistent. But in defense, most cost between a third and a fifth the cost of a Baer.
Maybe some poeple are just lucky and they get a really great factory gun. I on the other hand have to buy custom accuracy like you are refering to.
Just my thoughts.
I read your thread and can understand your comments. I own 2 Les Baer Custom 1911's. One has his 3" 50 yard guarantee and the other is a 2" 50 yard guarantee. I shoot only 230 grn FMJ's with bullseye, set up for target shooting. At 15 yards, if I really try, I can shoot a magazine (7 rnds) and just barely cover the group with a dollar piece. At 25 yards, off a rest I can usually do about 2 to 2.5" and standing maybe 3 to 3.5". When the group falls apart I know it is my fault not the Baer's.
I can see your point though, when I read about people shooting great groups, sub 2" at 25 yards with "conventional" arms like the glocks, sigs, rugers etc. I have to wonder how they got such a "cherry" firearm. I certainly have not had such luck with non-custom arms. I compare my Baer's to my other pistols and all of them pale in comparison, not as tight or smooth or consistent. But in defense, most cost between a third and a fifth the cost of a Baer.
Maybe some poeple are just lucky and they get a really great factory gun. I on the other hand have to buy custom accuracy like you are refering to.
Just my thoughts.
Mikey,
If the guy you're talking about is not Matt Dryke (Dryke won Skeet Gold in L.A.'84) then check him out. He has a trick shooting video thats interesting. He shoots moving targets with a .22 rifle that most people would find difficult to hit with a .12Ga shotgun.
Mylhouse,
Everybody remembers the few, rare, good ones and will conveniently forget the thousands of average or poor ones. Consequently, most people believe that they can shoot a helluva lot better than they really can.
Its a joyous experience to witness a phenomenon. The gentleman named above certainly ranks among the greatest ever.
Shotguns forever! Sorry guys, I know this is a pistol forum.
If the guy you're talking about is not Matt Dryke (Dryke won Skeet Gold in L.A.'84) then check him out. He has a trick shooting video thats interesting. He shoots moving targets with a .22 rifle that most people would find difficult to hit with a .12Ga shotgun.
Mylhouse,
Everybody remembers the few, rare, good ones and will conveniently forget the thousands of average or poor ones. Consequently, most people believe that they can shoot a helluva lot better than they really can.
Its a joyous experience to witness a phenomenon. The gentleman named above certainly ranks among the greatest ever.
Shotguns forever! Sorry guys, I know this is a pistol forum.
OkieGentleman
New member
I just have to tell this tale.
First I had a witness, a friend that was a part time gunsmith (and a good one)was spotting me with a spotting scope. I was checking some new reloads that I was working up for hand gun silhouette shooting. I was shooting a Python with a six inch barrel and I believe 190 grain fmj. The weather was perfect no wind and cool. I was shooting from the prone position with my elbows no the ground and the pistol unsupported. I fired the first round and he called high. I told him I was shooting for group and would hold in the same place. He call all my shots in until I shot the fifth round which was a foot to the right. The sixth and last round was called in. When I got through he told me if he had not seen it he would have called me a liar. I asked him what was it that I had done so well? He said "you just put 5 shots out of 6 in a four inch circle at 200 mtrs with a pistol". I said you have to be kidding! He replied no if I had not seen it with my own eyes I would have to call you a liar. Could I do it again? Never!! My hand was steadier 20 years ago, my eyes better and I was much prettier. LOL An honest to God true story. Did I trade the Python at a later date? Yes, I did not say I was super smart!!
First I had a witness, a friend that was a part time gunsmith (and a good one)was spotting me with a spotting scope. I was checking some new reloads that I was working up for hand gun silhouette shooting. I was shooting a Python with a six inch barrel and I believe 190 grain fmj. The weather was perfect no wind and cool. I was shooting from the prone position with my elbows no the ground and the pistol unsupported. I fired the first round and he called high. I told him I was shooting for group and would hold in the same place. He call all my shots in until I shot the fifth round which was a foot to the right. The sixth and last round was called in. When I got through he told me if he had not seen it he would have called me a liar. I asked him what was it that I had done so well? He said "you just put 5 shots out of 6 in a four inch circle at 200 mtrs with a pistol". I said you have to be kidding! He replied no if I had not seen it with my own eyes I would have to call you a liar. Could I do it again? Never!! My hand was steadier 20 years ago, my eyes better and I was much prettier. LOL An honest to God true story. Did I trade the Python at a later date? Yes, I did not say I was super smart!!
This has been an interesting thread, so I'll add my 2 cents. I work in a range and gun shop one day a week and, though I've been shooting off and on for 38 years, I'm no real expert. But I've had a few brilliant strings, just like most of you probably. But working on our range, I see a lot of new shooters come in (particularly this year). The remarkable thing is that almost all of them do very well on their first shot. Almost all hit dead center unless they have no understanding about how to line up the sights. The inaccuracy then starts after they realize what the blast and kick is going to feel like and start to react to it. I find that my first shots of the day are almost always my best of the day--not always, but most of the time.
Now on the issue of giving your opinion in gun shops, you'd be surprised at the things people expect you to know if you're behind a counter, and the judgements they expect you to make. It's very difficult to give them an answer (which is good customer service) when they ask you an impossible question. For example, yesterday we had a lady come in who was advised by her uncle or cousin or some other guy who was a police officer and told her she should buy a Glock .40. We have them for sale as well as a lot of other guns that would have been probably better for her. She tried the Glock 23 and did okay with it so that's what we sold her. I think she would do better over the long haul with a 9mm or .38Sp revolver, but she had already rejected those before she came in. After she left, some jerk in there was giving me grief for selling a woman a .40 that was too big for her.
I realize that a lot of guys behind the counter will put their mouth in gear before the brain is engaged, but tell me a profession where that phenomenon does not occur. Also, please give the guy behind the counter at least the credit for having seen a lot of people with a lot of different guns in their hands. He may hot have all the answers, and he's for sure interested in selling the guns in his own store, not someone elses. But just realize its not such an easy place to be.
Now on the issue of giving your opinion in gun shops, you'd be surprised at the things people expect you to know if you're behind a counter, and the judgements they expect you to make. It's very difficult to give them an answer (which is good customer service) when they ask you an impossible question. For example, yesterday we had a lady come in who was advised by her uncle or cousin or some other guy who was a police officer and told her she should buy a Glock .40. We have them for sale as well as a lot of other guns that would have been probably better for her. She tried the Glock 23 and did okay with it so that's what we sold her. I think she would do better over the long haul with a 9mm or .38Sp revolver, but she had already rejected those before she came in. After she left, some jerk in there was giving me grief for selling a woman a .40 that was too big for her.
I realize that a lot of guys behind the counter will put their mouth in gear before the brain is engaged, but tell me a profession where that phenomenon does not occur. Also, please give the guy behind the counter at least the credit for having seen a lot of people with a lot of different guns in their hands. He may hot have all the answers, and he's for sure interested in selling the guns in his own store, not someone elses. But just realize its not such an easy place to be.
I could do it!
And tomorrow when I sober up, I may even say it again.
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CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net
Do what you C.A.N.
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/digital/237/cansite/can.html
And tomorrow when I sober up, I may even say it again.
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CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net
Do what you C.A.N.
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/digital/237/cansite/can.html
There are a lot of people out there who have put a lot of shells down range..The man who taught me how to shoot skeet used to tell me how he could break 25 form the hip and i laughed until one day at the range another man heard he was there and told him he didn't think he was good as his reputation led one to believe. Mr. P. is not one to do something for nothing. He told the challenger to go practice all he wanted and then they would shoot 100 regulation American skeet targets for a thousand dollars. The challenger agreed, called his bluff he thought, Mr. P. put up his thousand and so did the challenger. Then Mr. P. told him he would left handed, from the hip. He is naturally left handed. they shot the 100 targets and Mr. P. never missed; he didn't crush them all, but all were hit . He got His $1000. The challenger asked how he did it. He replied the game gets a lot easier after the first box of shells........boxcar load that is. this really did happen at the Stonehill Shooting Range in Marble Falls ,Texas in about 1987. Mr. P could shoot anything he picked up. I believe there are people like that everywhere but not everyone gets to see them.
Beretta Boy
New member
Hey! I've got a question. What IS the "proper" way to measure your shots? Just in case I ever do anything spectacular with my gun, I want to make sure I brag about it correctly! 
Thanks!
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"...you're thinkin was that 5 shots or was it 6? Well, you've gotta ask yourself one question: Do you feel lucky??? ...Well, do ya PUNK!?!?
Thanks!------------------
"...you're thinkin was that 5 shots or was it 6? Well, you've gotta ask yourself one question: Do you feel lucky??? ...Well, do ya PUNK!?!?
Point well taken, Blackjack. I never put myself in the other guy's shoes before. But I would be remiss if I didn't say that a good amount of counter help are either bozos, sheisters, or liars sometimes. I guess the BS goes both ways. I'm glad I started this post, it has been very interesting reading your personal experiences and opinions. Thanks, guys.
Ok, it's tomorrow and the Christmas cheer is gone. You ask a fair question and deserve a fair answer.
Could I do it (2")? Yes.
Could I do it strong hand or weak hand?Yes.
Can I do it on demand? No.
Can I do it with any gun(handgun) capable of shooting that size group, even if I never shot that gun before? Sometimes.
Does it really matter? No.
I shoot as well as I can, and seldom measure size. It really seems pointless to me, unless I am working up a load, and want to measure the results. I have confidence in my level of skill that I see very very very little point in comaparing to anyone elses level. If someone says they can shoot a 50 yard, one hole group offhand on a windy day, that's fine by me. It really doesn't cost me anything to listen. G*d, Allah, or Joe-Boo, take your choice, gave me a talent to shoot a handgun, better than most, and not as good as some. It is the only area of hand-eye coordination where I am skilled, and I came to realize that it is a gift. I enjoy shooting a .22 Ruger 22/45 because it is cheap. I do just as well with any of the handguns that I own, so to spend the extra money on centerfire ammo is pointless as far as I'm concerned. I do enjoy shooting all of the guns that I own, but for every week shooting, and a lot of it, why spend $$ needlessly? Every week I see a lot of people shooting targets that resemble a shotgun pattern, and they seem quite content with the results. I say great. I try, and I really do try, to not measure my results against theirs. On a couple of occasions, there will be a shooter there that shoots as well as I do, and believe me, we do notice each other. Group size is one area we never discuss. Each of us seems to realize the others competence. One particular guy is a spectacular shot, when he is shooting his race .45 or custom Model 10. We sometimes trade off guns. With one of my stock guns, his skill level drops. I shoot his about the same as I do any of mine. Am I the worlds best shot and the guy you always want on a SWAT raid? Umm, I don't think so. I can put a lot of holes real close together on paper. So what? I mean it. So what? I still have to drag my dead butt outta bed every day to earn a living. Could I put 4 into a BG's heart at 50 yards in under 2 seconds? I don't ever want to know. I like reading the thread about the best shot. Most attribute the shot to luck. I'm sure luck played a large part, but there is also a lot of skill involved. My best advice, just keep shooting, as best you can, and if someone says they can outshoot you or shoots a whatever, just let it go. If you ever have to put your skill to the test, that person is not going to be there. You will only have yourself to count on or blame.
(Oh man I reread this in context and I guess I just added arrogant braggart to board idiot and load mouthed SOB to my name. I was going to edit it, but WTF, the great thing about a tarnished reputation is that the spots don't show when you got so many )
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CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net
Do what you C.A.N.
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/digital/237/cansite/can.html
[This message has been edited by Hal (edited December 06, 1999).]
Could I do it (2")? Yes.
Could I do it strong hand or weak hand?Yes.
Can I do it on demand? No.
Can I do it with any gun(handgun) capable of shooting that size group, even if I never shot that gun before? Sometimes.
Does it really matter? No.
I shoot as well as I can, and seldom measure size. It really seems pointless to me, unless I am working up a load, and want to measure the results. I have confidence in my level of skill that I see very very very little point in comaparing to anyone elses level. If someone says they can shoot a 50 yard, one hole group offhand on a windy day, that's fine by me. It really doesn't cost me anything to listen. G*d, Allah, or Joe-Boo, take your choice, gave me a talent to shoot a handgun, better than most, and not as good as some. It is the only area of hand-eye coordination where I am skilled, and I came to realize that it is a gift. I enjoy shooting a .22 Ruger 22/45 because it is cheap. I do just as well with any of the handguns that I own, so to spend the extra money on centerfire ammo is pointless as far as I'm concerned. I do enjoy shooting all of the guns that I own, but for every week shooting, and a lot of it, why spend $$ needlessly? Every week I see a lot of people shooting targets that resemble a shotgun pattern, and they seem quite content with the results. I say great. I try, and I really do try, to not measure my results against theirs. On a couple of occasions, there will be a shooter there that shoots as well as I do, and believe me, we do notice each other. Group size is one area we never discuss. Each of us seems to realize the others competence. One particular guy is a spectacular shot, when he is shooting his race .45 or custom Model 10. We sometimes trade off guns. With one of my stock guns, his skill level drops. I shoot his about the same as I do any of mine. Am I the worlds best shot and the guy you always want on a SWAT raid? Umm, I don't think so. I can put a lot of holes real close together on paper. So what? I mean it. So what? I still have to drag my dead butt outta bed every day to earn a living. Could I put 4 into a BG's heart at 50 yards in under 2 seconds? I don't ever want to know. I like reading the thread about the best shot. Most attribute the shot to luck. I'm sure luck played a large part, but there is also a lot of skill involved. My best advice, just keep shooting, as best you can, and if someone says they can outshoot you or shoots a whatever, just let it go. If you ever have to put your skill to the test, that person is not going to be there. You will only have yourself to count on or blame.
(Oh man I reread this in context and I guess I just added arrogant braggart to board idiot and load mouthed SOB to my name. I was going to edit it, but WTF, the great thing about a tarnished reputation is that the spots don't show when you got so many
)------------------
CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net
Do what you C.A.N.
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/digital/237/cansite/can.html
[This message has been edited by Hal (edited December 06, 1999).]
Hal,
I read your post, and the only time arrogance seem to creep in was when you mentioned it in your close.
Most people can do one or two things really well. Shooting, selling, remembering football stats, or just BS. Everything else they do is just average.
I enjoyed reading about your skill. I read no arrogance, just a sense that you know the one thing you do well, and it's always a pleasure to meet someone who is aware of their particular gift, and is willing to share it without false humility.
Thanks.
By the way, we all have to tolerate those who verbally boost their "average" into a "gift". I gotta tell you, I don't think a lot of people know the difference between 25 feet and 25 yards.
Roon
I read your post, and the only time arrogance seem to creep in was when you mentioned it in your close.
Most people can do one or two things really well. Shooting, selling, remembering football stats, or just BS. Everything else they do is just average.
I enjoyed reading about your skill. I read no arrogance, just a sense that you know the one thing you do well, and it's always a pleasure to meet someone who is aware of their particular gift, and is willing to share it without false humility.
Thanks.
By the way, we all have to tolerate those who verbally boost their "average" into a "gift". I gotta tell you, I don't think a lot of people know the difference between 25 feet and 25 yards.
Roon
When I was 8 yrs. old I was watching my dad and my two uncles shooting clay pigeons in our hayfield. All I had at the time was a lever (Red Ryder type) pellet gun with a 'magazine' that popped in near the end of the forearm grip which you rotated between shots. (If anyone can tell me the brand name of that gun I'd be very happy)
Anyway, I asked if I could try and they said SURE! Well, to make a long story short, I hit the first clay pigeon and cracked it dead in half. Needless to say, the adults were slack jawed and I asked to do it again. They agreed, and another clay pigeon went sailing. Did I hit it? Not a frikkin' chance. Just the old first timers luck.
Anyway, I asked if I could try and they said SURE! Well, to make a long story short, I hit the first clay pigeon and cracked it dead in half. Needless to say, the adults were slack jawed and I asked to do it again. They agreed, and another clay pigeon went sailing. Did I hit it? Not a frikkin' chance. Just the old first timers luck.
I should let this thread die, but I feel like putting my two cents in. 
I dunno,
My shooting buddy and I spent many years shooting in the desert at cans and such. We recently started going to the range again every week.
The indoor range has measured distances so we know how far we are shooting. We put the sillouette out to 15 yards and shoot our stock Glocks for head shots. We always shoot offhand in our preffered stance unless we are doing some wierd drill that day.
We have absolutely no problem taking a hi-cap mag and riddling one ragged 2 inch hole at 15 yards on any given day. No, 15 yards is not 25 yards. It would take a good day to do 2 inches at 25 yards, but it has been done on many occasions in my long shooting experience, and I consider myself no great shooter.
The stock Glock, according to Ransom tests, can shoot a 1 inch group at 25 yards and a 2 inch group at 50 yards, so I know the gun can easily shoot 2 inches at 25 yards, it is just up to me to come through. Maybe that mentality helps me accomplish that goal.
So, short answer is, I don't doubt that at least some of the better shooters here can shoot 2 inch groups at 25 yards on a good day.
The key is just to shoot a lot instead of sitting around talking about shooting a lot. And when I shoot, I shoot with purpose as a training experience, so I get better. Most people on the other hand, (not that I put them down for it because it is their choice), tend to talk and read about shooting and obsess over the next gun, rather than just going and and....actually shooting! And when they do shoot, they just do it for fun. That is perfectly fine, but it will never get anyone to a higher level of ability.
On the other hand, some people are just talented. Women tend to shoot better, and my friend has a good theory: Men just start shooting and try to figure everything out themselves. Once the man has been shooting for ten years and has developed all kinds of bad habits as well as all kinds of truly good advice, his wife gets into shooting. In her first lesson, she gets ten years worth of shooting experience taught to her, sans the bad habits that the man developed by not getting good instruction. So, women tend to appear to pick up on these things quicker. If any beginner has the good fortune of getting lessons from a very experienced person in any field, they are going to pick up the skill very quickly...that's why smart people pay for lessons when they start..
Also, women have better optical ability to contrast colors, thereby differentiate the sights and target better, and they have a softer heartbeat. Yep, women do have a genetic advantage as well as possibly the other advantage I just discussed.
To be honest, no beginner woman that I have shot with, including my wife, has been THAT good with a gun, but they do pick up quick. I WANT my female friends and loved ones to be a better shot than me...they need it more than I do because I can better resort to H/H if I miss.
The following is NOT how I usually measure my 15 yard groups, but I think that standard protocol is to shoot a 5 shot group, and toss out the flyer (there always seems to be a flyer, usually shooter induced, or a bad round). Tossing out TWO flyers? Man, that is generous.
FWIW, when I am shooting aimed fire, I shoot just like I was taught to shoot a rifle at long range. Breeaaath and Squeeeze as you exhale. Works for me.
Oh yeah, and I just shoot whatever junk ammo I can get for my Glock. Never really tried to find the perfect accruate load for the gun, but would like to pursue that someday.
I really think that shooting is all mental. If you KNOW you can shoot a tight group, then you can. If you program yourself that you can't, then you won't.
[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited December 06, 1999).]
I dunno,
My shooting buddy and I spent many years shooting in the desert at cans and such. We recently started going to the range again every week.
The indoor range has measured distances so we know how far we are shooting. We put the sillouette out to 15 yards and shoot our stock Glocks for head shots. We always shoot offhand in our preffered stance unless we are doing some wierd drill that day.
We have absolutely no problem taking a hi-cap mag and riddling one ragged 2 inch hole at 15 yards on any given day. No, 15 yards is not 25 yards. It would take a good day to do 2 inches at 25 yards, but it has been done on many occasions in my long shooting experience, and I consider myself no great shooter.
The stock Glock, according to Ransom tests, can shoot a 1 inch group at 25 yards and a 2 inch group at 50 yards, so I know the gun can easily shoot 2 inches at 25 yards, it is just up to me to come through. Maybe that mentality helps me accomplish that goal.
So, short answer is, I don't doubt that at least some of the better shooters here can shoot 2 inch groups at 25 yards on a good day.
The key is just to shoot a lot instead of sitting around talking about shooting a lot. And when I shoot, I shoot with purpose as a training experience, so I get better. Most people on the other hand, (not that I put them down for it because it is their choice), tend to talk and read about shooting and obsess over the next gun, rather than just going and and....actually shooting! And when they do shoot, they just do it for fun. That is perfectly fine, but it will never get anyone to a higher level of ability.
On the other hand, some people are just talented. Women tend to shoot better, and my friend has a good theory: Men just start shooting and try to figure everything out themselves. Once the man has been shooting for ten years and has developed all kinds of bad habits as well as all kinds of truly good advice, his wife gets into shooting. In her first lesson, she gets ten years worth of shooting experience taught to her, sans the bad habits that the man developed by not getting good instruction. So, women tend to appear to pick up on these things quicker. If any beginner has the good fortune of getting lessons from a very experienced person in any field, they are going to pick up the skill very quickly...that's why smart people pay for lessons when they start..
Also, women have better optical ability to contrast colors, thereby differentiate the sights and target better, and they have a softer heartbeat. Yep, women do have a genetic advantage as well as possibly the other advantage I just discussed.
To be honest, no beginner woman that I have shot with, including my wife, has been THAT good with a gun, but they do pick up quick. I WANT my female friends and loved ones to be a better shot than me...they need it more than I do because I can better resort to H/H if I miss.
The following is NOT how I usually measure my 15 yard groups, but I think that standard protocol is to shoot a 5 shot group, and toss out the flyer (there always seems to be a flyer, usually shooter induced, or a bad round). Tossing out TWO flyers? Man, that is generous.
FWIW, when I am shooting aimed fire, I shoot just like I was taught to shoot a rifle at long range. Breeaaath and Squeeeze as you exhale. Works for me.
Oh yeah, and I just shoot whatever junk ammo I can get for my Glock. Never really tried to find the perfect accruate load for the gun, but would like to pursue that someday.
I really think that shooting is all mental. If you KNOW you can shoot a tight group, then you can. If you program yourself that you can't, then you won't.
[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited December 06, 1999).]