Tell me if I'm full of B.S.!
- Thread starter Mylhouse
- Start date
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
Yo Mylhouse - chill.
Folks exagerate all sorts of things, guns are the same. If I had a dollar for every sub-MOA rifle owner I've met, well, I'd have a dollar for every sub-MOA rifle owner I've met.
I have had great results from handguns and rifles, but most are just not capable of shooting that tight a group - consistantly. Folks will shoot a bunch of rounds and claim the best three or five or whatever.
It's life - get over it. (grin)
Giz
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"I don't make enough money to buy cheap stuff" - Mark Manning
Folks exagerate all sorts of things, guns are the same. If I had a dollar for every sub-MOA rifle owner I've met, well, I'd have a dollar for every sub-MOA rifle owner I've met.
I have had great results from handguns and rifles, but most are just not capable of shooting that tight a group - consistantly. Folks will shoot a bunch of rounds and claim the best three or five or whatever.
It's life - get over it. (grin)
Giz
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"I don't make enough money to buy cheap stuff" - Mark Manning
Anything can happen once!
I witnessed a man who hit a small stump, with a Colt Python, shooting factory .357's over 100 yards away, over water with the first shot! When asked to do it again he remarked "I ain't got time".
Last year after an IDPA match a few of us were burning some ammo before we went home. We were shooting at a target about 12-15 yards away. A fly landed on the target and I dared one of the guys to shoot it. He asked why didn't I shoot it. So I did, with THREE witnesses! Thank God there weren't any more flys around 'cause I wouldn't have had time...
Mikey
I witnessed a man who hit a small stump, with a Colt Python, shooting factory .357's over 100 yards away, over water with the first shot! When asked to do it again he remarked "I ain't got time".
Last year after an IDPA match a few of us were burning some ammo before we went home. We were shooting at a target about 12-15 yards away. A fly landed on the target and I dared one of the guys to shoot it. He asked why didn't I shoot it. So I did, with THREE witnesses! Thank God there weren't any more flys around 'cause I wouldn't have had time...
Mikey
Sambonator
New member
I think a lot of people don't realize how far 25 yards is, and report incorrect distances. 2 inch 10-shot groups at 25 feet is doable offhand, but at 25 yards (75 feet) is next to impossible. Some people may actually mean 25 feet (or less), or THINK that their indoor range is 25 yards when it is considerably less. The range I regularly frequent is only 50 feet all the way to the back.
Actually, Mylhouse, you can use that to your advantage. Don't question anyone's ability to shoot a legitimate 2" group, just bet them. I didn't pay for many beers long ago when there was a dartmeister around the pubs who could "shoot 301 in 10 darts". You have to challenge them in a friendly way, usually they don't even know they've been taken to the cleaners.
Hmmmmm....that's half the fun of being with friends is throwing a little BS around.
Just advance warning, take about half the things you hear from me with a little salt.
We are just having fun here, right?
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The new guy.
"I'm totin, this pistol because my dang SKS won't fit in my holster"
Just advance warning, take about half the things you hear from me with a little salt.
We are just having fun here, right?
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The new guy.
"I'm totin, this pistol because my dang SKS won't fit in my holster"
In defense of those who have accurate handguns, accurate ammo, and the ability to hold 'em hard, consider this:
With my 6-inch .357 shooting two different handloads which send 125-gr bullets at or above 1375 fps, I have more than once fired a five-round, 2-inch group at a fully-measured 25 yards, standing on my hind legs, two-handed and unsupported. One was indoors (most of the indoor joints are only 50 feet), two or three were outdoors, no wind.
Usually my unsupported groups like this run 3 to 3.5 inches. My dad in years past could do that well strong-hand only with .38 Specials on demand (and has the trophies and past NRA Bullsye classifications to prove it).
So, it's not impossible! Just don't try to do it with a crunchenticker that won't do better than 4-inch groups off of the sandbags. It's a waste of the gun's time, and only serves to irritate the shooter.
"Don't have the time" can mean many things. Maybe the most honest, if it really is a lucky shot, is interpreted as "I don't have the time to fire enough shots to get that lucky again." Like the time I hit a 3x5-inch piece of steel with the first shot at 100 paces, in a 15-mph crosswind, standing, with an M1 Garand. Sure I have witnesses, but it was also a very lucky shot.
Since my tone sometimes gets on people's nerves, I guess some skeptics might flame me. Oh well. Can only tell what I know.
With my 6-inch .357 shooting two different handloads which send 125-gr bullets at or above 1375 fps, I have more than once fired a five-round, 2-inch group at a fully-measured 25 yards, standing on my hind legs, two-handed and unsupported. One was indoors (most of the indoor joints are only 50 feet), two or three were outdoors, no wind.
Usually my unsupported groups like this run 3 to 3.5 inches. My dad in years past could do that well strong-hand only with .38 Specials on demand (and has the trophies and past NRA Bullsye classifications to prove it).
So, it's not impossible! Just don't try to do it with a crunchenticker that won't do better than 4-inch groups off of the sandbags. It's a waste of the gun's time, and only serves to irritate the shooter.
"Don't have the time" can mean many things. Maybe the most honest, if it really is a lucky shot, is interpreted as "I don't have the time to fire enough shots to get that lucky again." Like the time I hit a 3x5-inch piece of steel with the first shot at 100 paces, in a 15-mph crosswind, standing, with an M1 Garand. Sure I have witnesses, but it was also a very lucky shot.
Since my tone sometimes gets on people's nerves, I guess some skeptics might flame me. Oh well. Can only tell what I know.
John Lawson
New member
There are some old time shooter's tricks that contribute to small groups at 25 yards. One is to use a Merit iris device on your shooting glasses and adjust it for maximum clarity. Shoot at a very small bull or the X in the center of the 10 ring. Never try a 6 o'clock hold.
A Python with a 6" barrel worked best for me. I fired single action.
I tried using a "Weaver" stance, and I did (weave, that is.) Isoceles worked best for me.
You need a high visibility sight set with a minimum of white showing on the sides of the front blade. You need a trigger that is super light and has no discernable backlash.
You need an extremely accurate load. Oddly, I have found that the higher velocity loads make tighter groups (for me, at least.)
If you DO shoot with reduced .38 special loads, take finger off trigger, elevate muzzle to drop powder against primer, lower slowly, cock and fire.
Break all of the rules and hold as tightly as you can manage without tremors. Break another rule and ignore breathing ritual; just breathe naturally.
That will work for sa fire with a good quality wheel gun. Autoloaders and da fire are completely different situations.
The older you get, the happier you will be with a 3" group at 25 yards. And, don't forget to adjust the position of that Merit iris device so that you don't have to cock your head back into an awkward position.
A Python with a 6" barrel worked best for me. I fired single action.
I tried using a "Weaver" stance, and I did (weave, that is.) Isoceles worked best for me.
You need a high visibility sight set with a minimum of white showing on the sides of the front blade. You need a trigger that is super light and has no discernable backlash.
You need an extremely accurate load. Oddly, I have found that the higher velocity loads make tighter groups (for me, at least.)
If you DO shoot with reduced .38 special loads, take finger off trigger, elevate muzzle to drop powder against primer, lower slowly, cock and fire.
Break all of the rules and hold as tightly as you can manage without tremors. Break another rule and ignore breathing ritual; just breathe naturally.
That will work for sa fire with a good quality wheel gun. Autoloaders and da fire are completely different situations.
The older you get, the happier you will be with a 3" group at 25 yards. And, don't forget to adjust the position of that Merit iris device so that you don't have to cock your head back into an awkward position.
Mikey, You have wisdom. Like the fellow who did that remarkable shot, you knew when to call it quits.
Mylhouse, don't doubt if the person can made a terrific shot. We've all done a terrific shot at some point in time. It's the fellow who talks about doing it consistently is the one is either a braggart or just damn good.
Gary
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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
Mylhouse, don't doubt if the person can made a terrific shot. We've all done a terrific shot at some point in time. It's the fellow who talks about doing it consistently is the one is either a braggart or just damn good.
Gary
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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
Cheapo,
You caught my drift EXACTLY - at my age, I won't live long enough to make a shot like that again, so I absolutely "don't have time"!
4V50 Gary,
I have known ONE, and only one, man in my lifetime that absolutely baffled everybody with his shooting ability. He didn't look, act or talk like a "shooter". In fact he made his statements in such a "matter of fact" tone that everyone was convinced he was all BS and nothing else. You know, crap like "breaking 25 straight (skeet) isn't a big deal, I usually run a couple of hundred before I miss one" or "I can't hunt more than 2 hours on opening day of dove season but that should be enough to get my limit - I'll be using my 410"!
The one he nailed me on was "Having trouble hitting the target at 25 yards with your 357? I'll meet you at the range and show you how to get 5 out of 6 in the kill zone on a deer target at 100 yards." To which I replied some crap like "OK Hoss, your on!" - then he showed up and did 6 out of 6 with his 4" Security Six and 5 out of 6 with my 6 (my sights were off but he corrected after the first shot missed!)"!! Oh, he did this sitting on top of the bench resting the butt of the pistol on his knee.
A couple of years later he made 4th alternate (if I recall correctly) for the U.S. Olympic skeet team. And he lacked one bird getting his limit in 2 hours on opening day of the dove season with a damn 410! Don't you just HATE guys like that?
Mikey
You caught my drift EXACTLY - at my age, I won't live long enough to make a shot like that again, so I absolutely "don't have time"!
4V50 Gary,
I have known ONE, and only one, man in my lifetime that absolutely baffled everybody with his shooting ability. He didn't look, act or talk like a "shooter". In fact he made his statements in such a "matter of fact" tone that everyone was convinced he was all BS and nothing else. You know, crap like "breaking 25 straight (skeet) isn't a big deal, I usually run a couple of hundred before I miss one" or "I can't hunt more than 2 hours on opening day of dove season but that should be enough to get my limit - I'll be using my 410"!
The one he nailed me on was "Having trouble hitting the target at 25 yards with your 357? I'll meet you at the range and show you how to get 5 out of 6 in the kill zone on a deer target at 100 yards." To which I replied some crap like "OK Hoss, your on!" - then he showed up and did 6 out of 6 with his 4" Security Six and 5 out of 6 with my 6 (my sights were off but he corrected after the first shot missed!)"!! Oh, he did this sitting on top of the bench resting the butt of the pistol on his knee.
A couple of years later he made 4th alternate (if I recall correctly) for the U.S. Olympic skeet team. And he lacked one bird getting his limit in 2 hours on opening day of the dove season with a damn 410! Don't you just HATE guys like that?
Mikey
I am fairly new to shooting. I recently bought a Beretta 92 FS. I have been to the range twice. I have shot a total of 200 rounds. Prior to getting the Beretta, I had shot no more than 35 rounds from a handgun. The range I shoot at is intended for rifle shooting and the closest target stands are at 25 yards. Of the last 20 rounds I shot at 25 yards, 15 of them formed a 3 1/4 inch group. I was using an isosceles stance with no support. If I can shoot that well, I would hope that someone with more experience can do a lot better.
Beretta Boy
New member
hey! just wanted to say, great choice of guns with that Beretta...
hehe..
Take care all!
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"...you're thinkin was that 5 shots or was it 6? Well, you've gotta ask yourself one question: Do you feel lucky??? ...Well, do ya PUNK!?!?
hehe..
Take care all!
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"...you're thinkin was that 5 shots or was it 6? Well, you've gotta ask yourself one question: Do you feel lucky??? ...Well, do ya PUNK!?!?
Hi, folks,
I have seen some very fine shooting with handguns. I witnessed a friend shoot under six inch groups at 100 yards (two hand from a rest) with a S&W Model 27 6" barrel, open sights. And he could keep shot after shot in that circle, time after time. He was using handloads and (before you ask) I don't know what they were.
I also saw a fellow with one of the first Ruger .44 magnums at a dynamite "turkey" shoot. Range 100yards. (This is a game where a stick of dynamite is cut in half, the pieces taped together, tied to a tree limb and started swinging.) The prizes were turkeys, frozen. The rule was any gun, open sights, off hand. The man fired one shot. Bang!+BOOM!= Turkey. Another fellow bet him $20 he couldn't do it again. Bang!+BOOM!=Turkey+ $20. He didn't have time for any more shooting.
Jim
I have seen some very fine shooting with handguns. I witnessed a friend shoot under six inch groups at 100 yards (two hand from a rest) with a S&W Model 27 6" barrel, open sights. And he could keep shot after shot in that circle, time after time. He was using handloads and (before you ask) I don't know what they were.
I also saw a fellow with one of the first Ruger .44 magnums at a dynamite "turkey" shoot. Range 100yards. (This is a game where a stick of dynamite is cut in half, the pieces taped together, tied to a tree limb and started swinging.) The prizes were turkeys, frozen. The rule was any gun, open sights, off hand. The man fired one shot. Bang!+BOOM!= Turkey. Another fellow bet him $20 he couldn't do it again. Bang!+BOOM!=Turkey+ $20. He didn't have time for any more shooting.
Jim
I'm really glad someone brought up this topic. In so many gun reviews in lots of gun mags, they claim to shoot from 25 yards. I realize that is 3 TIMES as far as those others that write their reviews from 25 FEET... yet the groups are nearly the same size.
I question every group size until I shoot the ammo my self. I can afford the variety of ammo, but not all those guns.
Be Skeptical and qustion EVERYTHING,
Ben
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AOL IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
I question every group size until I shoot the ammo my self. I can afford the variety of ammo, but not all those guns.
Be Skeptical and qustion EVERYTHING,
Ben
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AOL IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
Guys, I realize that 3.5in and less at 25 yds is good shooting, I mean REALLY GOOD. But the whole point is to be able to hit what your aming at right? so if you are doing a 3in group but are missing the nut comming at you cause you aren't in the "groove" what does it matter? Personally my objective is to be able to hit the "Person" on the paper at 15yds - 25yds. If I can do that I am satisfied. Head-center of mass, either or and they aren't getting up right?oh, and if it takes more than 10 rds... isn't it the shooter and not the gun? <LOL>
No offense meant to anyone
[This message has been edited by 18908148 (edited December 03, 1999).]
No offense meant to anyone
[This message has been edited by 18908148 (edited December 03, 1999).]
Cpt. John Park
New member
I can't help chiming in here. My brother is an avid revolver shooter, competing at some level in the NRA matches. He practices alot and experiments to handload the most accurate rounds he can for his particular guns.
But he says his wife, who just goes out for a few potshots about twice a year, can consistently shoot as well as he can. Evidently she just has a natural talent for it.
When I took my wife for her first handgun shooting ever, she fired her Taurus snubbie revolver from 7 yards and hit dead center in the bullseye. I didn't know whether to curse or cry.
Is it something hormonol or genetic about women? Maybe we should all start taking estrogen!?!
JP
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Nehemiah 4:18 " ... and each of the builders wore his sword at his side as he worked."
But he says his wife, who just goes out for a few potshots about twice a year, can consistently shoot as well as he can. Evidently she just has a natural talent for it.
When I took my wife for her first handgun shooting ever, she fired her Taurus snubbie revolver from 7 yards and hit dead center in the bullseye. I didn't know whether to curse or cry.
Is it something hormonol or genetic about women? Maybe we should all start taking estrogen!?!
JP
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Nehemiah 4:18 " ... and each of the builders wore his sword at his side as he worked."
Yeah My mom can shoot the center out of a bullseye with her browning take down 22 rifle... then she'll remember to flip up the rear sight. She shoots maybe once a year. 
I know with a ruger 22 auto pistol i can consistantly whack a bowling pin at 100 yards... but I'm NOT much of consistant handgun shot part 15 yards with big bore stuff.
At 7 yards I can print five shot strings into a cluster the size of a tennis ball with all my pistols but hell at 25 yards (without a colored bullseye) its hard to SEE the bullseye on a PISTOL target, and off hand its tough to stay steady with a handgun. I'd BET that most gun rag stuff shot at 25 yards is shot off a BENCH. After all... when you are reading gun rags stuff the idea is to show how well the GUN/AMMO shoots and groups.. not the "expert shooter".
So yeah I think a 3 inch group with ANY handgun at 25 yards is pretty darn impressive.
Rifles, however... well I shoot them a LOT better.
Dr.Rob
I know with a ruger 22 auto pistol i can consistantly whack a bowling pin at 100 yards... but I'm NOT much of consistant handgun shot part 15 yards with big bore stuff.
At 7 yards I can print five shot strings into a cluster the size of a tennis ball with all my pistols but hell at 25 yards (without a colored bullseye) its hard to SEE the bullseye on a PISTOL target, and off hand its tough to stay steady with a handgun. I'd BET that most gun rag stuff shot at 25 yards is shot off a BENCH. After all... when you are reading gun rags stuff the idea is to show how well the GUN/AMMO shoots and groups.. not the "expert shooter".
So yeah I think a 3 inch group with ANY handgun at 25 yards is pretty darn impressive.
Rifles, however... well I shoot them a LOT better.
Dr.Rob
Cap'n Park, I certainly agree with your observation about lady shooters. I wish I knew their secret, but it seems that if a woman likes shooting, she is usually very good at it. I've said it several times here that I could swear a friend of mine, of the female persuasion, is a reincarnation of Annie Oakley. She can pick up a gun, of any type, and usually outshoot the man who loaned her the gun.
I've got the sneaking suspicion that some gunwriters are as full of sh!t as a Christmas Goose! Their groups are always the tightest, their reloaded ammo the highest velocity, etc. etc.
Then there is the Ayoob count, somebody here mentioned, where you disregard the two "flyers" and measure the three shots remaining in the group. That becomes your group size. I can get tight groups like that, too! LOL
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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785
Then there is the Ayoob count, somebody here mentioned, where you disregard the two "flyers" and measure the three shots remaining in the group. That becomes your group size. I can get tight groups like that, too! LOL
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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785
BigG, hell, if we're talking about the Ayoob method of shooting, then I can shoot .45" one-shot groups all day long at up to damn near any distance on a good day. With a mostly stock Gov't Model, hardball ammo, and factory iron sights!
I've had some good shots, some good strings, and some good groups in my nearly 20 years putzing with firearms, and while I competed locally for a brief amount of time, I've never failed to call a lucky shot a lucky shot. After a particularly fast string at pin shootng one day, someone asked if I could do that again, and I said, "Not at half the distance." I guess my dad's lesson about humility sank in a bit.
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Don LeHue
Salad isn't food. Salad is what food eats.
I've had some good shots, some good strings, and some good groups in my nearly 20 years putzing with firearms, and while I competed locally for a brief amount of time, I've never failed to call a lucky shot a lucky shot. After a particularly fast string at pin shootng one day, someone asked if I could do that again, and I said, "Not at half the distance." I guess my dad's lesson about humility sank in a bit.
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Don LeHue
Salad isn't food. Salad is what food eats.