Tell me about the 5.7 rd...please
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iMagUdspEllr
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It has enough power. 340 ft/lbs is enough.
Lots of threads already on the FiveSeven.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERxZrzigoK4
Hand loading I can get 2500 fps out of a pistol. Can't do that with a 22WMr.
Doug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERxZrzigoK4
Hand loading I can get 2500 fps out of a pistol. Can't do that with a 22WMr.
Doug
Kinetic energy alone is apoor indicator of lethality. You may want to read Dr. Gary Robert's assesment of the 5.7 X 28.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913
The round was designed for a very specific purpose, and does niot make a good general purpose defensive loading. If you require a weapon system that is concealable under a trench coat, and that can penetrate level IIIA soft armor with loads only available to LE or Military then the P90 makes sense. In a pistol the round loses too much velocity to be truly effective.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913
The round was designed for a very specific purpose, and does niot make a good general purpose defensive loading. If you require a weapon system that is concealable under a trench coat, and that can penetrate level IIIA soft armor with loads only available to LE or Military then the P90 makes sense. In a pistol the round loses too much velocity to be truly effective.
iMagUdspEllr
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@Bernieb90: The reason why we have rifles is because they kill things. The reason why we have pistols is because we can't carry rifles with us at all times. We sacrifice capacity and stopping power for concealability. I don't own a Five-seveN but Nidal Malik Hasan killed 13 and wounded 29 ON A MILITARY BASE with a Five-seveN pistol. Shot placement is what matters when you are talking about handguns. All handgun calibers suck at killing people. Rifles are quite a bit more forgiving. A 5.56x45mm round is about the same as a .44 magnum round... just for some perspective.
That idiot also shot over 150rds. Mostly at unarmed civilians in a small space. Secret Service replaced the 9mm UZI with the P90. Better gun? Yes. Better cartridge? Too early to tell. Also, the fact that FN produces ALOT of guns for the government MAY have influences the decision. The big claim to fame is that certain (mostly non-civilian) loads will penetrate soft body armor like Kevlar vests. So will, Soviet Tok ammo that's sold as cheap surplus. Big deal. The 5.7 has potential but since so few guns are made for it and it ain't exactly cheap it will probably never fully reach it's potential.
Shooting, and killing unarmed people in an enclosed space has nothing to do with defensive shooting, or whether a particular load is effective for defensive purposes. Military bases are essentially gun free zones like schools. Only MPs and security personnel can carry firearms on military bases so you Know that NOBODY in the room is armed.
Sgt. Kimberly Munley a civilian police officer shot Hassan after being wounded in the legs, and wrist.
Jared Loughner killed 6, and wounded 14 using a 9mm with ball ammunition under nearly the same circumstances. He only fired 30 rounds, as he was not able to load his second magazine. Note that the dead to wounded ratio was almost exactly the same in these cases.
Also note that in active shooter cases medical personnel are often denied
access to the area until it is secure. This can take quite some time due to the confusion, and chaos of the shooting event.
Our main goal in a defensive shooting is to STOP attacker as quickly as possible. If they die as a result of their wounds it is an unfortunate consequence.
Just because a .44 magnum, and a 5.56 NATO have about the same energy does not make them the same. .44 magnum bullets behave very differently than 5.56 bullets meaning that their terminal performance is very different as well. .44 magnum can be used to take big game up to and including elk, and moose due to good penetration, and weight retention. 5.56 can be used to take medium deer at best with bonded bullets. Arrows with 50 ft-lbs of energy can take moose. Again energy is a poor indicator of lethality.
Sgt. Kimberly Munley a civilian police officer shot Hassan after being wounded in the legs, and wrist.
Jared Loughner killed 6, and wounded 14 using a 9mm with ball ammunition under nearly the same circumstances. He only fired 30 rounds, as he was not able to load his second magazine. Note that the dead to wounded ratio was almost exactly the same in these cases.
Also note that in active shooter cases medical personnel are often denied
access to the area until it is secure. This can take quite some time due to the confusion, and chaos of the shooting event.
Our main goal in a defensive shooting is to STOP attacker as quickly as possible. If they die as a result of their wounds it is an unfortunate consequence.
Just because a .44 magnum, and a 5.56 NATO have about the same energy does not make them the same. .44 magnum bullets behave very differently than 5.56 bullets meaning that their terminal performance is very different as well. .44 magnum can be used to take big game up to and including elk, and moose due to good penetration, and weight retention. 5.56 can be used to take medium deer at best with bonded bullets. Arrows with 50 ft-lbs of energy can take moose. Again energy is a poor indicator of lethality.
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gearhounds
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"If they die as a result of their wounds it is an unfortunate consequence".
Only unfortunate for them...
Only unfortunate for them...
orionengnr
New member
And IIRC, VA Tech shooter Cho used a 9mm and a .22 to kill 32 people. Executing frightened, unarmed people at point-blank range is not a reliable indication of a round's performance.
As far as the 5.7 goes, no thank you. IMHO, it is a gimmick round, and an answer to a question that was never asked.
As far as the 5.7 goes, no thank you. IMHO, it is a gimmick round, and an answer to a question that was never asked.
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Stevie-Ray
New member
And if you ask me, the guns that fire it are ridiculously expensive.
"...just a glorified .22 mag..." Nope. It is a difficult to find, centre fire cartridge, using a .224" rifle bullet that answers an unasked question.
"...Secret Service replaced the 9mm UZI with the P90..." P90's look cooler and don't weigh as much as an Uzi. 3 kilos vs 3.7. A P90 is a whole 100mm shorter(a whole 4") with a bigger mag(50 vs 32) and a higher rate of fire(900 vs 600 rpm). I'd bet the 'cool factor' had more to do with it than the rpms and weight though.
"...Secret Service replaced the 9mm UZI with the P90..." P90's look cooler and don't weigh as much as an Uzi. 3 kilos vs 3.7. A P90 is a whole 100mm shorter(a whole 4") with a bigger mag(50 vs 32) and a higher rate of fire(900 vs 600 rpm). I'd bet the 'cool factor' had more to do with it than the rpms and weight though.
StrongSideArmsInc
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The bullet performs excellent in soft tissue and is very effective. Unlike others on the post, I purchased my first FN 5.7 USG right before the Nov 08. I was not impressed with the weapon from a paper stand point. I spent some time as a LEO firearms instructor, and heard the hype, but just wasn't impressed with what I seen on paper. My sole reason for purchasing the firearm was because I like the novelty of it and felt like it would be the first to go if a ban took place.
After I recieved it, I began shooting it at the range quite regularly, because it is so much fun to shoot. Things I noticed off the bat, was the ability to keep the thing on target, no mater how fast I pulled the trigger, second I could hit Big Gulp cups around at 100 yards with no sight compensation.
I saw myself falling in love, but I still felt like the catridge must lack some killing power. So I decided to do some testing. I was given the task of erradicating wild hogs at my local shurch camp by my pastor, so I decided to take the FN one evening to see if it could lay things down. The first pack of hogs came out about 5:30p, right on schedule. Once the hogs got within 20 yards, I began engaing muitiple hogs. These hogs ranged from 60lbs to 200+. After the smoke cleared I had dropped 5 hogs with a total of 10 rounds fired. I tried to Double tap each one before moving the sights to next. Rounds struck everywhere from the gut, shoulders, hams, and to the head. First off, the round I was using was the 40gr Vmax. I noticed some of the most open wounds that I have ever seen from handguns rounds on the animals. There was one hog that I hit in the temple and the round went completely through. I could put my fist through the exit wound and could see daylight through the hogs head. I was awe struck at the amount of cativitation that the round created. To the nay says of the 5.7, it simply is just an issue of not using the weapon. The weapon will kill, and the magic is in the bullet, I have perform countless wet telephone book test with mulitiple rounds including the LEO only, and it is just amazing what the bullet does on impact. The bullet yawls completely everytime it hits soft tissue, causing some of the most impressive cativitation I have seen from a handgun. Second, the gun itselfs is light years ahead of anything on the market. I am a die hard 1911 fan, and I build them for livin, but if I had to go to war, and the chips were down, I am going to pick up the Fn 5.7. I can put three rounds in a 3inch circle @ 15 yards, in less than .8 of second. I can engage targwt sffectively out to 150 yards, and I got thirty rounds per mag with soft armor penetration, the rounds are small & lite which I can stuff and extra 500 in my cargo pocket, and lastly the weapon that fires it is the most simplest reliable firearm I have ever owned with over 3000 rounds fired with no issues with gun or the ammo.
Remember, ballistics is just a scentific guess. Once that bullet leaves the barrel, anything can and will happen. Ballistics show that a 9mm FMJ makes a bigger hole than the 5.7, but why did the senator from AZ, get shot in the head less than a foot away and still live. Handguns are defensive in nature, only thing you can do is use multiple shots to create blood loss and open cavitation. The FN 5.7 does this better than any gun on the market.
After I recieved it, I began shooting it at the range quite regularly, because it is so much fun to shoot. Things I noticed off the bat, was the ability to keep the thing on target, no mater how fast I pulled the trigger, second I could hit Big Gulp cups around at 100 yards with no sight compensation.
I saw myself falling in love, but I still felt like the catridge must lack some killing power. So I decided to do some testing. I was given the task of erradicating wild hogs at my local shurch camp by my pastor, so I decided to take the FN one evening to see if it could lay things down. The first pack of hogs came out about 5:30p, right on schedule. Once the hogs got within 20 yards, I began engaing muitiple hogs. These hogs ranged from 60lbs to 200+. After the smoke cleared I had dropped 5 hogs with a total of 10 rounds fired. I tried to Double tap each one before moving the sights to next. Rounds struck everywhere from the gut, shoulders, hams, and to the head. First off, the round I was using was the 40gr Vmax. I noticed some of the most open wounds that I have ever seen from handguns rounds on the animals. There was one hog that I hit in the temple and the round went completely through. I could put my fist through the exit wound and could see daylight through the hogs head. I was awe struck at the amount of cativitation that the round created. To the nay says of the 5.7, it simply is just an issue of not using the weapon. The weapon will kill, and the magic is in the bullet, I have perform countless wet telephone book test with mulitiple rounds including the LEO only, and it is just amazing what the bullet does on impact. The bullet yawls completely everytime it hits soft tissue, causing some of the most impressive cativitation I have seen from a handgun. Second, the gun itselfs is light years ahead of anything on the market. I am a die hard 1911 fan, and I build them for livin, but if I had to go to war, and the chips were down, I am going to pick up the Fn 5.7. I can put three rounds in a 3inch circle @ 15 yards, in less than .8 of second. I can engage targwt sffectively out to 150 yards, and I got thirty rounds per mag with soft armor penetration, the rounds are small & lite which I can stuff and extra 500 in my cargo pocket, and lastly the weapon that fires it is the most simplest reliable firearm I have ever owned with over 3000 rounds fired with no issues with gun or the ammo.
Remember, ballistics is just a scentific guess. Once that bullet leaves the barrel, anything can and will happen. Ballistics show that a 9mm FMJ makes a bigger hole than the 5.7, but why did the senator from AZ, get shot in the head less than a foot away and still live. Handguns are defensive in nature, only thing you can do is use multiple shots to create blood loss and open cavitation. The FN 5.7 does this better than any gun on the market.
Factory 5.7 ammunition is relatively bland. However, offerings from companies like elite ammunition are pretty impressive. One round has Velocities approaching 2400+ fps. Penetrating 2 level II vests and penetrating 9" of gel. Another also goes past 2500 fps and penetrate a level II vest and 12" of gel. At that speed hydrostatic shock is quite possible. These rounds were designed for penetration and fragmentation. Another heavier round travels at 1800 fps and expands to .70". This ammo does not come cheap ($40-$50 for 20rds) but it appears to get the job done.
The pistol is a bit large, but does carry 20rds and is easy to shoot and shoot fast. I do believe this can be a viable self defense pistol if you want to take the steps necessary to conceal it.
The pistol is a bit large, but does carry 20rds and is easy to shoot and shoot fast. I do believe this can be a viable self defense pistol if you want to take the steps necessary to conceal it.
GoOfY-FoOt
New member
A CrossBreed holster conceals one nicely...Shirt tucked in and all.
Well said!
I see so many of these threads where the comments are from people that have never even shot the firearm in question let alone own one.
Mine is 2 year old and will put most other hand guns to shame on the pop up targets. Yes, I reload but stay real close to factory loads. I like the round so much I now have a Encore with a 20" 5.7x28 barrel.
Doug
The impression I get is that the original intent was armor penetration. Since you can't get the "good" ammo, that's a significant point against the cartridge.
Here's some ballistic gelatin tests:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/5.7x28mm.html
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page2558.htm
I think it's interesting that the penetration of some of the rounds is only 8-10".
That seems like an awful lot of expansion. Got a link?
Here's some ballistic gelatin tests:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/5.7x28mm.html
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page2558.htm
I think it's interesting that the penetration of some of the rounds is only 8-10".
That seems like an awful lot of expansion. Got a link?
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