Taurus Reliability - Actual Numbers

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I don't think anybody is trying to claim that all Taurus guns are POS. That's a straw man.

I think several of us are claiming that the lemon rate from Taurus is significantly higher than the rate from most of the popular major manufacturers. Note that if the general lemon rate is 2%, and Taurus is at 8% (arbitrary numbers) that on the one hand, most Taurus guns would be just fine, but on the other they would have a lemon rate 4x that of the general rate.

Point being, it's very possible to argue that Taurus can make a lot of good guns, while still having a much higher rate of problem guns than is the norm.

Once again, it's not about price. I've heard of Kimbers arriving with untreated white steel barrels, with rust spots on barrels in NIB guns. I've had FTRB issues with a Les Baer (which I am pretty sure are due to the oversized thumb safety design; low thumb, I tend to engage the safety inadvertently - high thumb, I'm pretty sure my thumb rides the slide too much - so I am switching to a mil-spec thumb safety to see what effect that has).

The rusted barrel issue is bad; there is really no excuse for that. But the thumb safety issue isn't as big a deal, in my book, because it's a feature that many competitors - who prefer a high thumb and practice it all the time - prefer, but that doesn't work for me. And it's a mod that is known, over a broad spectrum of 1911 makes, to sometimes cause exactly this problem. (Especially for people like me, with extra long fingers and thumbs.)

So yes, higher priced guns can have issues, too. I don't think anybody is denying that. Nor is anybody denying that shooter physiology can have an impact. (For another example, my hands are too long for me to get a grip on skinny J-frame grips, or the original skinny SP101 grip; I have to use slightly oversized grips. BUT again, my hands are not in the range most designers plan on for general fit.)

And, again, I have some lower price guns, too - primarily used.

I had a friend ask me just the other day to recommend a home defense handgun in the $300 range. I told him that generally speaking, I don't recommend particular models for people, because a lot of factors go into what will work for a given person. I suggested he check out corneredcat.com for a good review of handgun selection factors. I even said just come on out to my place, and I'll let you try an assortment so you can figure out what you like.

But he kept asking what I, personally, would look for at $300. I told him that, for me - and not meaning for him - I would grab a police trade in S&W K frame or 3rd Gen S&W auto from someplace like J&G Sales.

In a new gun, sub-$300, I might consider something like a Kel-Tech P32, simply because it will fit a niche that nothing else at that price will fit; but I'm fairly big, and can conceal a K or 3rd Gen under most conditions, so...

In your case, you have a Taurus that works well. That's great. A lot of people do. I, personally, would not suggest that you get rid of it or take it out of your carry rotation. It's working.

But based on observations about the relative odds of a poor performer; and based on horror stories about the experiences of those who have actually needed to use CS; I can't endorse the new products for people who ask me "What gun should I buy?" And I won't roll the dice on one for myself.

(Speaking of CS, Beretta has a very poor CS/Warranty reputation, but in 17 years of owning various Berettas, I've never had to find out about that. Nothing has ever failed, in any way. Not with military issued guns that looked all beaten up, and not with the four I've owned, nor the several that have belonged to friends of mine.

A gunsmith friend is a huge fan of Springfield Armory, because in his experience they not only have great CS and warranty support, but they support people who are not original owners.

My experiences with S&W CS have been mostly good, the only complaint being that in one case, with a gun I'd bought used, they didn't offer to send a shipping label.)

You get the idea.
 
MLEAKE,

I can't really find any fault in your most recent comments. We are seeing more eye to eye, and even your posts are getting as long as mine!!!:p

I still question using any arbitrary return rate compared to the other brands because it just contributes to what might just possibly be a bogus assessment based mostly on conjecture, since there isn't really anything to quantitatively confirm or substantiate that the returns were in fact defects.

That isn't to say that the returns aren't in excess of the other manufacturers...they may very well be. It just means that we don't really know if the returns are legitimate defects, or the consequence of what I call the "Bubba" factor.

No offense intended to any of you that claim to be Bubbas out there.:D

On-line reviews of all models should be factored in, certainly, but I'm much more an advocate of what you did when shopping for the PT22 series. An experienced shooter can examine a firearm and know what it's potential for problems might be.

There are always the hidden issues, like alloy type, heat treat, etc...but, for the most part, you can discern whether a design is or is not basically sound, especially if you've had the advantage of comparing different designs, one right next to the other. This seems especially easy when comparing the polymer handguns, as was illustrated in my original post.

I think that Taurus had huge problems in the past, and to a certain extent, apparently with some models, they still may. But, there again, once in a while you'll see where somebody pops up in the forum claiming that their old Taurus from yesteryear is perfect in every way.
 
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Quizcat,

I apologize if my earlier posts had seemed excessively harsh . I am not usually a jerk in person, but I sometimes come across a bit more aggressively in written than in spoken form. Words may be exactly the same, but the non-threatening, non-verbal part of the communication is missing.

I still think that you are attributing too much to novice users, but I can't deny that they are a likely a fairly large source of complaints for manufacturers in general, and lower cost manufacturers in particular.
 
With regard to heat treatment, I had purchased one of the early Ruger LCR .38 revolvers, that had some issues with flame cutting (weird from a .38) and top strap issues. Apparently, they had a batch that did not get heat treated.

I had given the LCR to a friend; the damage occurred while he had it, as I had not shot it much. He called Ruger. Ruger sent a shipping label, determined the LCR was defective, and sent him a new one within two weeks. Big thumbs up to Ruger CS, at least.

But my friend had lost confidence in the LCR, so he traded it in for
an American Classic commander length .45, of all things.

Note that my friend's longest owned, still carried handgun is an SP-101. He still loves Ruger, but not the LCR. Model had problems, but other models haven't; plus, Ruger backed their product without hesitation or hassle. These things really do matter to a lot of us.
 
We are passionate, so we sometimes react with a zealousness that is sometimes misinterpreted. If I came across likewise, I also sincerely apologize. It isn't my intention to be overly aggressive. But, my written word does probably sting a bit when I get all wrapped up in trying to convey what may be understandably interpreted by some as unconventional thinking, or my bucking the trend.
 
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I have also had occasions to deal with Ruger CS myself. My most recent contact with them involved an Talo version Emiliano Zapata commemorative Vaquero.

There was a smudge on the front sight, like some gun grease had been there for quite a while. It wouldn't rub off, and the gun was sufficiently expensive that I didn't want to mess with correcting the problem myself.

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I sent it back to Ruger, they merely polished it up, and got it back from them in a couple of weeks. It looks fantastic! You can't even tell the smudge was ever there.

My intention is to frame them in the following configuration, maybe in some kind of shadow box, and display them in my office, a reminder of "mucho tiempo" (ie: a lot of time) spent in Mexico on business, even to this day. Just haven't had the time to complete my vision for the pair.

I will never fire them...I purchased a regular 45LC blued Vaquero so I could at least know how they must feel to be shot.

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"Emiliano Zapata" The Mexican Revolutionary

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"It is better to die on one's feet, than to live on one's knees"

When a company like Ruger starts to venture into new areas, like the LCRs and the LCPs, LC9s, etc...it can get a little harry. I think companies that built their reputations on larger framed handguns are kind of flirting with disaster unless they're really careful with their engineering.

Due to the size of the parts, the reduced weight required, and the smaller frame sizes, etc..., it must be a considerable challenge to reduce defects to an acceptable level.

Plus, with the market having such a huge demand for concealable firearms, and the Bubba factor due to the low acquisition cost, everybody wanting their concealed carry, some consumers that wouldn't have known a firearm if it hit them square in the head, etc...their engineering department probably felt the pressure to roll out a product very quickly. Being rushed can cause huge quality issues, and it takes awhile for the hick ups to settle down.
 
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I haven’t posted much in this particular thread as the "Let's Bash Taurus" threads are so voluminous in nature that I usually skip them (not living in denial but it's like "Groundhog Day" :eek:), but this is the most intelligently conducted one I have seen so far ;). I can only speak to mine (92, PT22/25, 24/7 G2 Tactical 9) and they have been as reliable as my Rugers, Smith's and Beretta’s). The two that I usually compare for my own evaluation are the Taurus 92 with the Beretta and likewise with my PT22/25 and my Bobcat models. In my case, I cannot say buy the Taurus "equivalent" hands-down because they are better guns--However, I like the Taurus 92 because of the safety location (and 12 years ago when I purchased it was when they were substantially cheaper which is no longer true) and the PT-22/25's because I got incredible steal like deals on them and I am one of those mouse-gun nuts. Yet, they all keep pace with their respective Italian equivalents stride for stride (as someone previously mentioned my Taurus mouse-guns are a bit more sensitive with the ammo then the Bobcat's). And the 24/7 Tacical is a beast that will feed everything in sight and run all day long (I know this was submitted in the USSOCOM testing that was eventually shelved--Brazilian SF carry this particular model and I can see why—it actually appears more durable IMO than the 92).

By the way, I am not one to dismiss every single complaint as invalid due to being a Taurus fan-boy--However, I would really like to see some "empirical data/stats" concerning vendor complaints/returns other than conjecture. Does anyone know of a legitimate site that collects this kind of data? I am looking for something analogous to say "Consumer Reports" dedicated to firearms...

Happy Labor Day and GOOD LUCK to those looking for work!

-Cheers
 
The 24/7 GS has considerable promise to replace my PT140. There are some features to that firearm that are exceptional. The only thing holding me back is they don't seem to have a magazine finger extension. Has anyone ever seen one made available for it?

I heard that Taurus acquired Beretta's manufacturing plant in Brazil, and all the tooling necessary to make the PT92 to Beretta's specifications. It would not surprise me to learn that Taurus produced the castings for that plant to begin with...just speculation of course. There are more incestuous relationships in the firearms industry than most manufacturers are willing to admit.

I don't know the age and integrity of what they purchased, but it sounds like yours has worked out well for you. Undoubtedly, upgrades to equipment would be necessary over time, but it's interesting that they are apparently competing well with the original Beretta 92.
 
Quizcat

I heard that Taurus acquired Beretta's manufacturing plant in Brazil, and all the tooling necessary to make the PT92 to Beretta's specifications....


You know when I was researching/debating on which 92 to go with, it was the aforementioned fact along with Mossad Ayoob's recommendation that I went with the Taurus model (and to reiterate, at that time they were substantially cheaper which in its totality made it a no-brainer for me).

But yeah, there's a lot of interesting info on the Beretta Brazilian plant purchased by Taurus.

-Cheers
 
I don't know if these two Tauri were unusual, but both a PT-22 and a PT-25, NIB, did the same thing; and the store manager told me that was normal in the pistols that had come into his shop.
I'd have to say that it's not the norm as he says, but that's based only on 2 examples, mine and the other one I've fired. Both mine and the other were fairly easy to close the barrels. OTOH, the slides were harder than hell to rack. That of course, didn't matter to me one whit, as mine was bought for my wife's destroyed hands and the tip-up meant she'd never have to rack. Of course she wasn't able to use even this neat little gun, so it's simply a fun gun of mine, and my only Taurus, for now. Would I give them a third chance? Probably.
 
I live in Miami, FL...Where Taurus is made.

Let's just put it this way...I STILL wouldn't touch those things with a severed zombie hand.


(EXCEPT! The 1911 and PT-92) I would give those a try only because I've heard good things about them. Never handed..those..Taurai...
 
I own a .357 Taurus revolver, and have for many yrs now, and my wife has had her Taurus .38 spl ultralite since 2006. Both guns have many rds fired through them, no complaints. I can't speak as to their sem-autos , never fired one. But the revolvers I can't fault
 
brazosdave

I own a .357 Taurus revolver, and have for many yrs now, and my wife has had her Taurus .38 spl ultralite since 2006. Both guns have many rds fired through them, no complaints. I can't speak as to their sem-autos , never fired one. But the revolvers I can't fault

I am the opposite in that I have fired their revolvers via range rentals but have never owned one--I have my eye 'big-time' on their 608 (aesthetically looks like that same "beefy" class of revolvers as the GP100, 686, Python etc.). I'm thinking Santa may 'have one up his sleeve' for me come my favorite holiday of all, CHRISTMAS!
 
I gave you my personal experience earlier in this thread on Taurus as someone who felt they would be a good way to get into pistols... Ignore hands on real world purchasing disasters at your own peril... I wish you all the best of luck... I do understand some of the weapons from Taurus do work and are great but shouldnt that be the normal expectation and not the exception.... It seems its a coin toss on what your getting, not a great way to do business...
 
When reading complaints reported in these forums, I have to read cause and effect in order to buy into the idea that a particular model is of inconsistent quality and performance, and that goes double for an entire brand name.

We live in a very small world these days, and where a product is manufactured is an almost meaningless consideration in and of itself.

Claiming to reject brands or models, seemingly out of pure prejudice, without detailed specifics, and also failing to quantify that a particular model has a disproportionate number of complaints by cause and effect is of little or no legitimate value.

I can find and post complaints on each and every model or brand out there, bar none. What is illusive is "specifics." The reality is, a disproportionate number of complaints come off as purely prejudicial because there is little substance (cause and effect) to back up the claims of statistically higher legitimate defects.
 
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We live in a very small world these days, and where a product is manufactured is an almost meaningless consideration in and of itself.

Absolutely not true as a former mid-level manager within a high-tech manufacturing company I can tell you without reservation that at least some companies will only get high end parts from a handful of nations known for quality. The general components may come from wherever but the critical ones that made/broke reliability and performance dont always come from everywhere..

How much of that applies to the gun world I am not an authority to say. Taurus is ISO 9001 certified but for the most part thats a very basic standard that just about everyone meets.

Its your money do what you will... I hope you get a great pistol from Taurus.. I truly do but if you dont... well it is, what it is...
 
As a manufacturing engineer in the defense aircraft industry for about 35 years, I totally disagree with your assessment that location in the world limits the ability of a manufacturer to produce quality, and your contention that location in the world dictates quality.
 
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Echo, Echo, Echo...

What gets me with the thread is the actual reiteration of customer disatifaction as though I "missed" it the first time (almost presumably as though my IQ doesn't allow for the initial comprehension). I say fire away at anything you find personally unsatisfactory as it's a free country (still, on paper ;)) but I see no need for (the seeming) recidivism absent an agenda.

-Cheers
 
As a manufacturing engineer in the defense aircraft industry for about 35 years, I totally disagree with your assessment that location in the world limits the ability of a manufacturer to produce quality, and your contention that location in the world dictates quality.

Why even pose the question if you and you alone are the only one in possession of all the facts... I see no point in this post, it serves no purpose, no learning going on here, just stubbornness. I wish you well but I will comment no more on this thread...
 
:confused: I did not pose a question. I simply disagreed with your opinion. My point is, location in the world is irrelevant to making a legitimate assessment of quality and performance...those criteria are not dependent on plant location in the world.
 
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