Taurus 38+P vs 357 - pressure handling

G

georgiacatweazle

New member
We all know that a 38 special is shorter than a 357 so it cannot be put in the wrong gun and blow it up etc etc.
But, I have noticed very little difference between the 38 and 357 Taurus revolvers except the obvious cylinder length difference.

with strengthened cases (i.e. trimmed 357), any reason why you can't push the pressure on the 38+P revolvers ?
i personally think there is no reason to limit a modern Taurus 38 to 18k of pressure. I am sure it can handle loads easily in to the 9mm territory.

(i will be asking taurus when ever i get through on the phone)

Any one with facts for or against ?
 
I can already tell you what Taurus will say, I am psychic like that, "that's a very bad idea, only used factory approved ammunition specified on the barrel of gun"

now my answer "that is a very bed idea, only used specified ammunition as printed on the barrel of gun." besides, if it "could" hold up to 357mag levels, no need for strengthened brass (ie. shortened 357 brass), the cylinder walls keeps the brass in one piece. I load 38 spl to 357 pressure al the time.....for 357 GUNS!!! you can take a micrometer and measure the wall thickness of the cylinder between the 38 and the 357 and see if they are indeed the same, but that doesn't mean every other component of the gun will be able to hold up to the extra pressure. has the cylinder gone through the exact same hardening process, it is the same quality of steel?

38spl and 357mag cases are identically made, the 357 just with a longer shank, so yes....you CAN load the 38 to 357mag if you can find a powder that will allow for the case capacity. but I really don't think the frame of your Taurus is going to be made to hold up to it.
 
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"...trimmed 357..." There's no difference between a .38 Special case and a .357 case other than the length. The '+P' stamp is there for so the workies in the factory don't mix 'em with standard .38's. Same case otherwise.
"...to 18k of pressure..." There are max +P loads that already do that. Some go more than 18K. HS-6, SR4756 and HP-38 top out at over 19K with a jacketed 125.
9mm 125 grain start loads are roughly 6-10,000 PSI higher than the hottest .38 +P load. .357 125 grain jacketed loads start at 18,300 PSI.
Like skizzums says, Taurus, if you ever get through, is going to tell you no way. No how. Not ever. And this call is being recorded so you won't be able to sue us.
 
Yeah, most reloading manuals have a section for ".38 Taurus Only Loads".

When you test fire them, make sure you don't use the hand you type with, so you can let us know how it went.

Taurus imprints ".38" on the barrel to keep costs down by not having to stamp that extra digit.

I channeled into the same psychic energy as skizzums concerning what Taurus will tell you.
 
For dead sure certain, Taurus is going to tell you -NO WAY NO WAY NO WAY-
They may also tell you that you aren't even allowed to shoot handloaded/reloaded ammo in it.

Here in the real world, there is a pretty large gap between .38 Special+P and .357 Magnum... and Taurus revolvers don't cost a pile of money.

I say...
If you are an experienced handloader and you don't mind the fact that you will be placing obvious stress on your revolver, and you are CAREFUL enough to mark these rounds clearly and ensure they never find themselves in other people's firearms, I don't see why you can't exercise your right to carefully experiment here as long as you understand all of the potential pitfalls.

In my opinion, keeping in mind that I have -NEVER- worked in the firearms industry and worse still, I have -NEVER- worked in manufacturing...

I would guess that Taurus streamlines their manufacturing and it would be more work for them to put revolver cylinders through different processes simply depending on where they end up. If I had to guess, I would guess that the modern, new .38 Special revolver cylinders are no different in metal content/quality or heat treating than the .357 Magnum cylinders.

It would be fantastic to get this word for certain from inside Taurus.
I think you have a better chance of being struck by lightning twice than to get that answer.
 
I don't deny that the cylinders probably go through the same process. But the frame of the gun is a different story. You weren't asking if you could work up from +p and go up incrementally. You were asking to load from 357 mag data and try shooting it. Bad idea. But even working up slowly, you don't know when your frame is going to be getting strected, cracked etc. If you have the desire to keep a handful of loads past 10% past the +p data, is say go for it, is say a steady diet will eventually harm your gun, but a couple boxes probably, yes probably, won't kill you. But .357mag is an extremely powerful round compared to .38. Have you Mic'd the cylinder walls yet to make absoli certain they are exactly the saner spec as 357.... Wall thinkness etc?
 
We all know that a 38 special is shorter than a 357 so it cannot be put in the wrong gun and blow it up etc etc.
But, I have noticed very little difference between the 38 and 357 Taurus revolvers except the obvious cylinder length difference.
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Are there cylinder length differences? I don't have a Model 85 to compare to.

I do know that the cylinder of my S&W 642 (.38 +P) is a hair longer than the cylinder of my Taurus 605 (.357). The only thing keeping me from loading full length .357 in there is the shoulder inside the chamber. Which would make sense from a manufacturing and inventory point of view, not having to stock different length cylinders and different length frames.

with strengthened cases (i.e. trimmed 357), any reason why you can't push the pressure on the 38+P revolvers ?
i personally think there is no reason to limit a modern Taurus 38 to 18k of pressure. I am sure it can handle loads easily in to the 9mm territory.



Any one with facts for or against ?
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When I bought mine, it was a whopping $25 extra for me to jump from a plain steel Model 85, to the 605 in .357. I never once regretted spending the extra money.

(i will be asking taurus when ever i get through on the phone)
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Count me in the chorus of folks saying no way is Taurus going to tell you to use anything other than what is stamped on the gun. No way.
 
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Sounds like fun. Take before and after pictures.
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Yeah, Make sure to document the process and report back. :eek:

Almost every revolver manufacturer has 38 special and .357 revolvers that look the same. That doesn't mean there aren't different steels used or different heat treatment processes. Taurus would be the last on my list to try and test .357 pressures in a 38.

If your lucky the hand, ratchet notches, or some other minor component will give out before the cylinder cracks or the frame stretches.
 
You folks can be just as bewildered as you need to be...

Handloader forum regular poster and expert experimenter Clark does far, far crazier overload experiments all the time, taking a lot of data and documenting ALL of this.

Let's not make it sound like the OP is trying to fish for trout in his bath tub using dynamite here.

If the OP:
--develops loads slowly and with caution
--observes signs of excess pressure
--knows & accepts the possible damage
--takes care to properly mark his loads for identification
--realizes that a low cost Taurus is merely a test platform that can and possibly WILL be consumed in the experiment

...then maybe we needn't get all worked up about the "danger."

Frankly, riding a motorcycle in traffic is far, far, radically far more "dangerous."
 
I don't recommend doing your suggestion. But here's a few things that are good to know just for general knowledge:

First, you wouldn't need to use a cut down 357 case. You could use any 38 Special case and let the case trimmer stand idle.

Second, it's highly unlikely that Taurus uses different metal or heat treatment between their 38 Special and 357 Magnum guns. Their machinists all start with the same steel stock.

Third, in theory, yes, you could do this. I know lots of people who have taken their Smith & Wesson K-frame 38 Special (Smith also makes K-frame 357's that are virtually the same gun) and pumped up their loads to 357 Magnum pressures. Over the decades, this has been done thousands of times.

But I don't recommend it. Further, I fail to see the point. If you want a 357, get a 357. If you're "stuck" with a (modern) 38 Special, shoot +P's. As far as "stopping power" (whatever that really is) goes, I wouldn't hesitate carrying 38 Special +P ammo for defense. In fact, I've done it lots of times - in my L-frame 357 firearm.
 
I have no idea what materials Taurus uses, but the appearance or length of a cylinder has no bearing on its alloy or its heat treatment. Taurus has had some QC problems, but they are generally pretty rugged guns and will probably stand any load within reason that can be put in them, but why push loads beyond the maker's specs just to see what happens?

There are some .38 Special loads that can get into very high pressure very quickly with just a slight increase in the right (or wrong) powder.

Jim
 
Experimenting carefully because it is possible is not the work of the devil. And it is not only done in probably EVERY hobby, it is precisely and exactly what got us to where we are today with modern high pressure cartridges, plain and simple.

And it is absolutely fine and expected when someone retorts that the OP is not Elmer Keith -- frankly, nobody is, but Dick Casull... Paco Kelly... John Linebaugh and literally countless others made a life's work doing exactly this sort of thing.
 
Believe it or not I have the only time I called Taurus for mags, I got through, and they had some just in :-)

The only thing I can figure as far as the difference between the 38 and 357, is obviously the missing digit. if you compare the guns side by side, most of the frame looks as makes any odds, the same.

they don't make my 82SS any more, only 38+P 4" comes in black. So unless you knew where to look on the gun, you wouldn't be able to tell them apart.
My hunch is that fundamentally they are the same, but in order for Taurus to make a 38 for the folks who want them and not a 357, they stamp a 38 on it and sell it for $150 less. marketing for basically a price point they want a 4" pistol in. if they did away with the 38 stamp, how could they sell $450 357's ?

I think 10 years ago, yes you very well may be getting a totally different gun.

as far as my experimentation's, i may work up a load to 10% over +P keeping an eye on the pressure signs and micrometer of the frame. the most i've done so far is some Hornady XTP's running 1/10th off max +P. very nice loading, not too much recoil, accurate. no signs of over pressure.
 
Experimenting carefully because it is possible is not the work of the devil. And it is not only done in probably EVERY hobby, it is precisely and exactly what got us to where we are today with modern high pressure cartridges, plain and simple.

And it is absolutely fine and expected when someone retorts that the OP is not Elmer Keith -- frankly, nobody is, but Dick Casull... Paco Kelly... John Linebaugh and literally countless others made a life's work doing exactly this sort of thing.
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There's no such thing as "experimenting carefully" unless you have the lab equipment to measure pressures.

By the time you can see the signs in by dimensional changes in the brass, you're already in the danger zone
 
Elmer probably had a cigar,a hat and a room full of guns and replacement parts... but I don't think he had a lab and pressure testing equipment. He didn't even have a chrono.
 
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