Target grouping "confidence"

[4runnerman]

I do mine different than most here. I take a 2 ft by 4 ft chunk of cardboard.
My targets are 1/2 inch circles with a small black dot in the middle. I will set it out 100 yards ( 223 only). I will fire 2 rounds in to each target. Both rounds need to touch each other and need to be in or tear the black dot. The issue with firing 20 or more rounds into one target is ( as others have said) You shoot the bullseye out and now you are putting bullets through a hole in the paper. You don't know where they are hitting, In essence- you are wasting bullets for a target that you don't know where they are going. When I can line 10 targets across and put 2 rounds in each one-In the black or tear it, then I am done.
Groups are great, but only if they hit the bullseye.

 

[overthere]

10 shot groups while doing load development but the real test (for the rifle/load) is 20 shots for record on a calm day.

I used to do 5 shot groups but start shooting 10 and what might start out looking like a so-so group could end up being the best of the bunch, as opposed to a 5-shot 'all touching' deteriorating into mediocrity.

I'd shoot 20 shot groups if it wasn't for time and cost (components and barrel life).

 

[FrankenMauser]

The issue with firing 20 or more rounds into one target is ( as others have said) You shoot the bullseye out and now you are putting bullets through a hole in the paper. You don't know where they are hitting, In essence- you are wasting bullets for a target that you don't know where they are going.

There's a really simple solution to that "problem" ... and a lot of people do it.

It is quite common for people to sight in high or low, and use a different point of aim than the actual center of the target.
This style of benchrest target is a perfect example: EZBRT

A simple square without the bullseye would be just as effective, but a lot of us are lazy and use what's easy.


I, for example, use similar benchrest targets for a lot of load development and practice with my hunting rifles. ...But I turn the targets upside down at 100 yards. That gives me a point of aim below the bull. For "flat-shooting" cartridges, the impact will be pretty close to the center of the bull. For some other cartridges, it may be a little lower (.458 SOCOM) or much higher (.35 Whelen).
Regardless... the point of aim does not get shot out, but all of the shots are still on a clean area of the target, and I get my groups.

Here's an example with a varmint cartridge (so POI is closer), during load development.

(If you wondering about the semi-photoshopped look... its from scotch tape being put over the holes - front and back.)

---
And, although I'm sure many people will find it a little strange, sometimes when shooting at 50 yards or ~200 yards, I turn the targets sideways, because many of my rifles will shoot out the aim point at that range. Turning the target sideways puts the bull on the left side, point of aim on the right side; and I adjust the zero to move the point of impact horizontally (be it 2 clicks, 4 clicks, 8 clicks, etc.).

 

[Mozella]

I too was struggling to find increased accuracy for my bolt action .223 until I stumbled upon this new and exciting way to evaluate groups. It's done wonders for improving my accuracy.

I shoot five shot groups and then toss out the two worst shots, leaving me with a great looking three shot group, at least most of the time. Then I cherry pick the best of these groups and destroy the bad ones. Finally, I brag long and loud about the good ones.

This method is cheap, easy, and I guarantee your accuracy will improve if you use it.

Judging from what I read on the Internet, some of you already are using this method.

 

[Road_Clam]

One of the aspects of successful "real world" recreational shooting IMO is it's all about AVERAGING , and logging your data to obtain both positive and negative trends. I am NO master marksmen, I'm an amateur mid range precision shooter and I've only been hand loading for about 4 years (and still learning). My shot group method consists of shooting two separate 4 shot sessions , and I triangulate the best 3 shots within each session. I shoot a total of 8 shots letting the barrel cool down after the first 4 shot session. I also calculate all my data shooting at 200 meters rather than the standard 100 yds as my groups are more opened up and thus more measurable and it's easier to define vertical stringing. I do not calculate cold bore shots as they are always off a bit. I also use a chronograph and a custom made bench top type rest to keep my rifle as steady as possible. You want to keep shooter mechanical inconsistencies out of the equation as much as possible. I always favor a consistent less accurate average load vs a one time highly accurate load that has a history of wider inconsistencies. So for example if I have a load that consistently shoots .7 MOA vs another load that shot a .22 moa and then shot a 1.8 moa I will always favor the .7 moa load. I have over 280 test sessions logged in my Excel shooting journal and the data is a HUGE help in consistiantly advancing my skills. This post is strictly just my opinions on what seems to work very well for me..

 

[tobnpr]

Just say your AR shoots 3/4 minute, and you'll be golden with the internet forum crowd

The pictures of 3-shot groups that overwhelm the net are oh-so predictable... if not amusing.

For me, I'm with the five-shot group crowd. JMO...

One thing I'll add, that no one has mentioned, is distance- I'm assuming for the sake of discussion that you're referring to the "standard" 100 yards/meters.

Double, triple that or more- even on a windless day- and the horizontal and vertical dispersion (particularly vertical) that occurs due to normal variations in velocity, neck tension, etc.- all the "stuff" that's hidden at 100- becomes evident.

Guess that's why no one posts up groups they shoot at 300 yards...

 

[Road_Clam]

One thing I'll add, that no one has mentioned, is distance

I did:

I also calculate all my data shooting at 200 meters rather than the standard 100 yds as my groups are more opened up and thus more measurable and it's easier to define vertical stringing.

 

[Brotherbadger]

I do 5-shot groups and never really counted the number of groups I shoot. It's spread across many many range sessions.

I tend to do the same. 5-7 shot groups is my norm.

 

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I generally only use three-shot groups to sight in so that I can triangulate the center.

Five or more rounds make up groups. I'll shoot a bunch more if I feel like showing off. Here are examples:

Verifying sight-in with three shots

Showing off with at least 10 shots

Regards,

Josh

 

[Slamfire]

Three shot groups are the standard for gunwriters because they are lazy, don't want to spend much time and effort shooting, and are not interested in determining the inherent accuracy of the product they were paid to shill for.

However, go to a rifle match, and you find that no body wins anything based on three shots. Typical Across the Course match, you shoot 20 shots for record each stage, for a total of 80 shots for record for the day. The course of fire is 20 shots standing, 20 shots rapid fire sitting, both at 200 yards. Twenty shots rapid fire prone at 300 yards, and at 600 yards, you shoot 20 shots prone in twenty minutes. The mid range matches, that is 600 yards prone slow fire, at the end of the day your score is based on 60 shots.

Small bore prone, you either shoot a 120 round match or a 160 round match. The fifty yard targets have four record bulls, and you shoot five shots for record at each. At 100 yards, you have two bulls, ten shots in each bull for a total of 20 rounds.

My centerfire load development, I will shoot five rounds to quickly sort out good from bad, and pressure indications, then I go back and shoot ten round groups of the most promising. Five shots is not enough to determine inherent accuracy and I have had a number of times where the ten shot group showed tight five shot groups to be a statistical aberration.

For rimfire ammunition, it takes time and ammunition down range. Shoot enough rimfire ammunition and you will see drop outs with the cheaper stuff. Drop outs like this one, with Eley Club, will ruin your confidence in the stuff for match use.

For match rimfire ammunition, it basically comes down to, are you shooting cleans and are you happy with your X count

This was shot by a very good small bore prone shooter, in a State Championship, and he said it has taken him about a year to get that rifle set up the way he likes. This is a ten shot group at 100 yards.


A shooter I know once asked Larry Moore (Government Small Arms Test Engineer and Wimbledon Cup Winner) how many rounds it took for him to have confidence in a particular load, and Larry said about 20,000 rounds!

 

[22-rimfire]

For me the number of shots needed depends on what I am trying to accomplish. If I am trying to pin point my rifle-ammo accuracy, I will do five shot groups. Sighting in.... as few as possible to where I have confidence in predicting the next round. But I will often finish off with a 5-shot group after I am comfortable with the scope settings.

As always, 22 rimfire is a different animal but same principles apply.