Talk to me about Pump Action Rifles

Take note that the AR system has been around for civilian use since mid sixties, and really, it took over 30 years before that rifle became a common, household object. I wonder if it ever would have become what it is today if the millions of men who have used them in the military had not liked them.
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Millions of men used the AR in military service and did not like them! Personally I think the biggest factor in the AR becoming a "common household item" has been the various laws regulating or banning them. The next biggest factory is that after nearly 40 years, they finally got the worst of the bugs out of the guns and the ammo. And then the redesign of the gun into its modern variant with its increased accuracy and capability to use actual DEER cartridges, as well as all the modular add ones you find today.

yes, the pump rifle kind of always had the deck stacked against it. History is funny that way. A large part of the popularity of each system is what the buyers are used to, and what they get for their money. Another part is what the rifles themselves are, which has changed over time.

Prior to WW I, bolts existed, but were not all that common, levers were very common, and there were also some pumps. Some even shot something other than pistol ammo. Rounds in the .30-30 class were "powerful" in those days. And there were a handful of lever guns which shot even bigger, more powerful rounds.

After WW I, lots of former servicemen now had personal experience with the bolt action. They knew it was capable of fine accuracy, rugged durability, AND it could shoot even more powerful rounds, which left general lever gun rounds (and their pump equivalents) in the dust, ballistically. .30-06, 8mm Mauser, .303 British.

There were no pumps equal to the task, at the time. The Remington pumps were very good guns, but not able to take .30-06 class rounds, and the lever guns that could (Win 95) just couldn't compete with the bolts.

Now step forward past WW II. The old Remingtons are out of production, Remington designs a new semi auto & pump rifle to take advantage of the .30-06 class rounds, and the millions of former GIs who have now learned that the semi auto is a viable weapon. The new Remingtons are bigger and heavier than the old lever & pump guns (and expensive) but they are also more powerful.

The semi auto sporting rifle (primarily Remingtons) becomes firmly established, while the pump sales languishes, except in places like PA where semis are prohibited for hunting.

While there may have been a few hardy souls, almost nobody lugged around an M1 Garand for hunting. People absolutely wanted something lighter. Witness all the sporterized bolt guns, where the FIRST thing to go was excess wood. Suplus bolt guns could be had cheap, and turned into everything from Bubba hack jobs to absolutely fine sporting rifles, (depending on the tastes and skill of the converter) generally for less money than buying a new rifle, bolt, pump, lever, or semi auto.

So, another strike against the pump rifle's popularity.

I grew up deer hunting in the thick woods of the NE and of the dozen or so guys that my Dad hunted with TWO carried bolt guns (and one of them was me,), ONE carried an old Remington pump in .30 Rem, the rest all carried Marlin or Winchesters in .30-30 or .32 Special. My uncle got a Marlin .35, after he fell and broke the stock off his .30-30.
 
Here is a pic of my 7 pump 22s.
I have been into owning 22 rifles for 52 years.
The median acquisition date for my pump 22s in 2013.
So I only recently started to appreciate pump 22s.
Now I am big fan. They will do everything I want that other 22s do... and they will operate quickly with CB shorts.

As Hickok45 points out, you don't need hearing protection.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoytTQvgQcE
 

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pumps

First time I wandered afield to slay Bambi, a mere lad, I carried a Rem 14 pump in .30 Rem. I still have it, and not killed a deer with it yet! The Rem "candycane" pumps were a family favorite, .35 preferred.

Semis were not legal, and the pump reigned. When the rem 760 hit the market, the old candy canes were retired, and the newer pump became king. My great uncle declared the 30'06/180 RN the "best killer in the woods" and the family replied "yea, verily". And the new pumps could be easily scoped, and most of those old timers eyes were slipping a good bit by then too. Not just family, but everybody seemed to have an '06 pump, and the carbine version was the holy grail. I left while still young, but that's the way it was.

During my career, for a while, and I cannot put an accurate era to this, say early 1970's through mid eighties, the Rem pump in .308 was a bonafide LE rifle for the NPS and some other fed agencies. I can recall working a firing line in 1985 with I believe Border Patrol officers at FLETC using that rifle. The ammo was plastic cased, plastic slugged import (RWS?) ammo, as none of the ranges were approved for real rifle calibers. The plastic ammo was for safety issues, wild rounds skipping the berm and sailing off into Brunswick. My outfits policy on ammo was 150 gr SP's. The rifle had a following I believe due to its manual of arms being similar to the agency shotgun, the 870. I never saw one on duty (a pump rifle), but read the policy about the time it expired and the Mini14 was (briefly) adopted.

I had a pal with a Savage 170 (.30-30) , and I owned a Rem .22 pump, the Fieldmaster, that I shot so much I wore it out. That's it for me and pumps.
 
The old .35 Remington has the same problem in pumps as in other rifles. The cartridge has a small shoulder and unless the rifle is carefully chambered there is not enough case support to ensure proper ignition. Still, it is a good cartridge and I think that up to about 1960, it was probably second only to the .30-30 for deer hunting.

Jim
 
I recall that some time ago the American Rifleman had an article that compared semiauto, pump, lever, and bolt action rifles with respect to speed of operation and accuracy. While the design of the plan would not meet criteria for a scientifically reliable study, the results were interesting. As expected, the semiauto rifles could be fired faster. In descending order, they were followed by pump, lever and bolt, in that order. However, the differences in speed were quite small between the designs, and it would be stretching the data to conclude that the differences were practically important.
IMHO, the major disadvantage of the pump is the awkwardness of shooting in the prone, sitting, and kneeling positions, and the drawback of the lever is the cartridge limitation of most designs.
 
my results with pump and lever are both about equal. Bolt? follow up shots are literally impossible. I've never been able to master fast handling. I can see where most people would find a centerfire pump quicker than a lever.
 
Various informal "tests" over the years have shown that for aimed repeat shots, semi is the fastest, pump/lever next (about half are faster with one than the other) then bolt action last.

One "test" I remember some of the details, rifles were as close to equal recoil as practical, shots were from offhand, shooters were generally experienced with all the guns. For 5 aimed shots, the averages were semi 5-6 sec, pump 6-7seconds, lever 7-8 seconds, and bolt 9-10 seconds.

Averages

meaning some people were noticeably faster and some weren't.
 
My Remington 760 has always amazed me with its accuracy. That's why I use it exclusively for long range shooting such as this antelope hunt in South Dakota.

This action is a turnbolt in every sense of the word but operated by a slide action. It's a strong action that has been chambered for 30-06 class cartridges from the very beginning.

Here in Pennsylvania, these rifles are often called "Amish machine guns."

Jack

 
Finding the RIGHT pump is probably the most important part...
I've got an old 1923 Marlin 37 w/ 24" barrel that puts many newer rifles to shame...
to the point if a new rifle can't outshoot it, that new rifle gets sold/traded awful darn quick ;)

Of course, there's also the "Old Guy with an Old Gun that he knows inside out" part of the equation...
knowing your weapon's responses to everyday weather and wind changes are huge advantages...
knowing exactly where that first cold bore shot is gonna go, and where the warmer ones are gonna hit...

Due to the good experiences with my pump, if I found a nice centerfire pump, I'd buy it with few qualms...
 
I am an un American type in that I just don't like pump actions, shot guns or rifles. My dad wad quite skilled with his old 760 rem 06. I can shoot them just fine, they just aren't my cup of tea.
 
Understandable, I don't care that much for them myself. It's not a natural function, but that's mostly because I have never used them too much. I'm also fairly incompetent with my left hand. Stupid thing can't even hold a fork. If I ever break my wrist, i'm going to get really hungry.
 
I am 64, but when I was 14 I could operate a pump shotgun, Win 97, like kids play video games today. I shot a rodent this week than involved running and shooting 4 shots with my pump 22. It was all conditioned response. I did not think about the gun, I was on the target.
 
Another pump rifle was the AK based pump, can't remember the name. It was meant for states that banned AK rifles. It didn't catch on and honestly doesn't look good.

Thinking on the subject a little more, I'd like to add more and adding on to what others have said.

Just because something works, and possibly well, doesn't mean it'll catch on. Pump rifles work, they just aren't common. Majority of people want semi autos and bolts, then the nostalgic crowd likes levers. Pumps and single shots are usually overlooked and made fun of. People want what's familiar, and in modern times that's not a pump rifle. The first massproduced cartridge repeater was a lever and it's still popular today. Bolts have advantages over them, so they are popular. Semi autos have their own advantages. What does the pump offer? Slightly faster speed between shots over a non auto repeater? In the hunting world most people don't take two shots at once, some do though. A pump won't be much faster than a lever, if at all. There's another thing to consider, higher powered rifle rounds aren't popular in levers. The 1895 is no where near as popular as the 1873 and 1894. So, maybe the majority of higher powered rifle shooters prefer to use bolts and semi autos. How many people knew a .303 or 7.62x54 was ever chambered in a lever, but have seen dozens of bolt guns chambered in them? Plus the original pump Remington's were all in Remington cartridges. What's more easier to obtain, mainstream or unheard of? Then there's the idea gun shops might not risk keeping them in stock. How many will pay more or the same for a pump than a lever or bolt?
 
line your lever and bolt actions up and put beer money on them and shoot against a pump at tires rolled down a a small incline with the 14" inch center having a insert of cardboard in it, with the tires only being able to be shot at for 50yds broadside. i had my eyes opened up 50 years ago by a remington 760 in 3006. what i found with pump is you do not lose your sight pictue and you don,t have to find the trigger between shots. true no magnums in the rem pump,but i believe their are two that do. but for most large game the 3006-270 0r 35 whelen would do. eastbank.
 
nature of it

Jack's post got me to thinking about the nature of the hunt in those areas where the pump gun is/was popular.

Back in the day, ( the black and white photos of camps with levers and pumps) there just weren't as many deer. Hunters didn't perch in trees or shooting houses, one either still hunted (stalked in modern lingo) or took a stand, either on an organized drive, or in spot where deer got pushed to you buy other hunters. I can still hear some of those club drives from my youth, guys with whistles, frying pans, cow bells. I just wonder how many of those vintage photos show deer killed on organized drives. Resultantly, many deer shot, and shot at, were moving. If you didn't shoot, you might not get a shot, period, if you waited for that fork horn to stop and look around. Nobody counted points, there was no such thing as QDM.

And so a fast second shot was important. So too in the south, where dog drives are still not umcommon in some areas. The semiauto is very popular with the dog crowd (and so is the scattergun with buck). Deer in front of hounds are often on the move and will not stop. And so rate of fire matters to those guys. I think all this set the stage for the pump (and the auto where legal) being popular. But that era is passing as the nature of the hunt changes.
 
The pump is the only type rifle I have never gotten into. I think it had its place, but the semi-auto is now much faster, as reliable, and more accurate than the pump.
 
bot action fast repeat shots are not impossible, but most don,t take the time to pratice fast firing, while working the bolt from the shoulder and finding trigger again while following the game to be shot or shot at again. after watching many shooters praticeing fast bolt action rifle shooting several things stand out right away. 90 percent bring the rifle off their shoulder(due to rifle fit), look at action while working the bolt to see if it jammed i guess and them get the rifle back onto the shoulder,find the trigger and alien the sights-scope while trying to find the game. this i know as a left hand shooter who wanted to be a good bolt action rifle shooter, i bought a left hand 700 rem sps youth in 7mm-08 so the stock would be shorter so as to keep the rifle on my shoulder while fireing and it has taken a long time to get to the point of firing five shots with out taking the rifle off my shoulder or looking at any thing but the game-target. it can be done but you must put forth the effort. i have six left hand bolt action rifles from .22 to .300 win mag and just as many pump rifles from .22.to 3006. can their be a time when a pump may down your game on a fast 2-3 shots?, yes but not as often as one may think...IF YOUR FIRST SHOT WAS GOOD WHAT TYPE OF RIFLE ACTION YOU USED WILL NOT BE TO IMPORTANT. eastbank.
 
I love my 760 Remy in 30-06 as a hunting rifle. As a target rifle its terrible. Shot 1 & 2 are on the money, 3 & 4 are plenty close for hunting purposes. After that SHTF and it starts to walk across the target as much as 6" at 100yds. So far I have never fired more than 1 at an animal so its a non issue. If I am switching mags and worrying about anything after shot 2 then I did something very wrong. Being from NJ and doing all my hunting as a kid with an 870 Wingmaster it made perfect sense to use a 760 when hunting rifle in PA. The controls are familiar, easy follow ups if needed. Its short (carbine), balances well and handles fast in the woods or stand.
My father had the same rifle that he bought used in 64. My son inherited the rifle in 2010 and is still using it. Great reliable gun.
 
jwalker497,

IF you shoot a pump shotgun for waterfowl, small game or even for big game (where rifles are unlawful), the Remington Model 141 in .35 Remington caliber OR the wonderful Model 760 is "the real deal".

I've shot nothing but pump shotguns since childhood for squirrel & rabbit hunting & when I was in college 50 years ago a classmate sold me his Model 141 (in decent but not mint shape) for 50 bucks.
(BEST 50 bucks that I've ever spent.)

When I returned to CONUS from a tour abroad, I was stationed at Ft Indiantown Gap in PA, where semi-auto rifles are illegal for deer/bear. - Wanting to hunt WT, I sold my semi-auto deer rifle to my 1st cousin in TX & bought my first Remington Model 760 in .244 Remington (essentially the same as the 6mm Remington caliber)and liked it very much for hunting out to 250M.
(About 2 years later my niece borrowed my .244 & liked to so much that I ended up giving it to her for her 20th birthday. = If you are a coyote/WT/feral hog do NOT stand out at 200M & let Tara shoot at you as she is DEADLY with that rifle.)

Finally, I bought a "well-used" but good shooting .270., a .300 Savage & a .30-06 Model 760.
(Can you tell that I'm "addicted to" the Remington pump-guns? - CHUCKLE)

My latest project is looking for a long-action Remington Model 760 (preferably the "Plain Jane" model that has NO Monte Carlo cheek-piece & the "corncob" fore-end.) that has a shot-out or rusted/pitted barrel to have re-bored/re-chambered to 9.3x62MM Mauser caliber to take to southern Africa in August 2017.
(IF I can find a second "shot-out" Model 760, it will be re-bored to .400 Brown Whelen Improved for really BIG game. =The .400 is a "ballistic twin" of the very well-regarded .404 Jeffrey.)

just my experience/opinions, satx
 
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