Talk to me about Pump Action Rifles

J

jwalker497

New member
I've always had thing for pump action rifles but then i realized that not only are pumps generally faster but they're also more easily kept on target given the ergonomics. So then I realized how few pump action rifles I have ever seen aside form 22LR. Why is that? It seems to me that they shol dbe pretty popular, at least as much as levers. Obviously levers have the whole nostalgia nd cowboy thing going but im quite surprised how scarce the options are when it comes to a good ole ranch pump rifle.
 
Remington has a couple tactical pump rifles. One takes AR mags, and one is a .308, devastating stopping power with hollow points.
 
I have the 7615p........

...........and it's a fun rifle. Gotta couple of ten rounders and also a few twenties for it. Could've sold it for over two grand at one point when the ban scare was going on. Kept it instead. It's the one rifle that gets played with the most when a bunch of us get together for shooting. That's even with AKs and ARs around in the mix.
 
I asked this same question once. If I recall correctly, someone pointed out that the actions weren't as tight or strong for larger calibers (then again the 12 ga is a big round), that the tube design magazines don't work well with typical rifle ammo (yes, I would assume one could make a magazine fed pump), and lastly the advances with bolt guns come from the military usage, and pumps don't work well shooting prone or from the bench.
 
If I recall Remington did make tube feed pump guns in oddball rounds as well as box magazines. Probably the only ones you see are in .30-06. Colt and Rossi has made centerfire pump guns with tube magazines, I can't remember who makes them but there's a reproduction of the Colt out there, not cheap. I've handled a Rossi once, I didn't shoot it but judging by the book by its cover it looked much better than your typical Rossi. I like the idea of a pump for a range toy in a handgun round but for hunting they have a limited market. The only advantage it has is if you like taking multiple shots and you either don't like semi autos or aren't allowed to hunt with them. A pump rifle is like having a bolt action shotgun. Nothing horrible about them, just not popular.
 
to each their own. the centerfire remington pumps have been made in 25-20 to 35 whelen over time and the rem 7600 pump can be had in most popular calbers today new and in the used market at very good prices 350-550. the people who own and use rem pump rifles know their virtues very well and don,t need to defend them. eastbank.
 
someone pointed out that the actions weren't as tight or strong for larger calibers (then again the 12 ga is a big round), that the tube design magazines don't work well with typical rifle ammo (yes, I would assume one could make a magazine fed pump), and lastly the advances with bolt guns come from the military usage,
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Larger calibers in rifle rounds generally means longer cases, and high pressures. While the 12ga is physically large (primarily in diameter) it is not a high pressure round.

Where pump guns "fail" compared to bolt actions are the increased complexity of the action, the general difficulty in reaching the same fine accuracy potential, and the lack of the bolt gun's powerful camming action for primary extraction. A slightly over pressure round sticking in the chamber might mean a harder than normal bolt lift a bolt action, but could mean a trip to the gunsmith in a pump.

So, if you are one of the guys who load to max, the bolt is much "better" than the pump.

Also, note that "advances" in bolt actions due to military use essentially ended before WW I.

As to the tube magazine thing, its a yes and no thing. TYPICAL tube mags (found on typical lever guns) don't work well with pointed bullets. (risk of primer detonation). Remington had a series of tube mag rifles (pump and semi auto) before WWII that DID work well with pointed bullets.

The model 14 and 141 (as well as the semiauto 8 & 81) were entirely sporting rifle designs, and used Remington rounds in .25, .30, .32,& .35 calibers. They were rimless rounds, and other than the .35 direct ballistic equivalents to the rimmed Winchester rounds .25-35, .30-30, & .32 Special, but they were loaded with pointed bullets.

AFTER WW II, Remingtion designed a new pump & semi auto, made from the ground up to handle 30-06 class rounds (or shorter) and using detachable box magazines, so bullet nose profile was not an issue.

Economically the pump is cheaper and less complex than the semi auto, but that "advantage" is not what it once was. And, in the field, the rapid fire advantage to the semi has essentially kept the pump deep in the shade since then end of WW II.

Today, the only place a pump rifle dominates are places that have legal restrictions on semi autos.

it is somewhat ironic that a pump shotgun is lauded as being about the best thing going, for rugged dependability, versatility, and simplicity of operation, while a pump rifle is not. Like wise the lever rifle is highly regarded, while the lever shotgun is a real rarity.
 
god forbid you or i have a total case failure, but if i do i want it in a rem 7600 pump. i saw a .308 rem 7600 rifle that must of had 40-50grs of bullseye or other fast burnimg pistol powder loaded in it, the trigger group and magizine were blown free and the receiver was baldged out about 3/8 inch. the firer had three fingers broken and trouble hearing for a few days,but no gas in the face at all and the reciever was bent but intact. eastbank.
 
The alleged faster firing is only true if firing offhand such as is done with shotguns. No one will choose to fire a rifle offhand unless there is no other option. It is almost impossible to fire prone, with a bipod or any other type of support with a pump or lever action. This is why neither were ever seriously considered for military use. Fired from prone or from any other supported position bolt guns are faster.

Shooting fast and hitting in a hurry are not the same. You can unload a magazine from a pump or lever action a little faster than with a bolt gun if you're not interested in hitting anything. Throw in the requirement that a target be hit with each shot and the speed advantage over a bolt gun is just not that great. Especially with heavier recoiling rounds suitable for big game hunting. You can cycle the action on any of them faster than you can recover from recoil and get back on target. With 22's or pistol caliber rounds the difference is a little faster.
 
It may be anecdotal or not even true, but I've heard/read accounts where the British Enfield bolt rifle was fired so fast by Brits that it was nearly semi-automatic (factoring in aiming of course). Of course that rifle is a very slick bolt action.

As 44Amp noted, it is interesting that bolt guns, lever guns, and pumps all seem to have their niche calibers/usages, and not a lot of cross over. Pump shotguns but rare bolt or lever shotguns, and lever .30-30s but rare bolt or pump .30-30s, etc. for instance.
 
win made it,s model 54 in 3030, savage made the model 340 and a model 170 in a pump in 3030 and rem made the 788 in 3030. i think why you don,t see many rimmed cartiges in bolt actions is the the rims must be one in front of the other in the magizine or clip or you may get rim lock. most rem pumps will hold 1.5-2.0 inch groups and with the proper reloads better, they are hunting rifles not bench rest rifles. i put a 12x leupold on a 7600 rem pump 3006 and with 165 nosler BT bullets and 56grs imr 4350 shot three into one inch groups from a bench rest while working up the reloads i use for deer. eastbank.
 
Love my 1918 built Remington model 14. I own a Win 1894, Win model 64 carbine, Marlin 1894, Marlin 1895, Win 1895 and Win 1886, all of which are lively, fast and fun. It's hard to beat a levergun for those qualities, but the model 14 does it in spades. One of the sweetest guns ever built in the United States. Ditto for the model 141. When Remington discontinued that line and went to the 760 or whatever they called it, they destroyed the whole idea of what a pump gun should be, of course, IMO. Do yourself a favor, get on Gunbroker and find yourself a model 141 and thank me later.
 
The model 14 had a tubular magazine that put some twist into the cartridges so points didn't rest on primers, but pointy bullets in 1914 are todays semi spitzers at best and more importantly the 14 does not like feeding spitzer bullets. If you are contemplating a model 14/141 do yourself a favor, feed it round nose bullets and be happy with 150-200 yard shooting.
And like the man above said, people who own pump guns know their qualities and don't have to be sold on them. In the thick stuff where shots come fast, you want a scoped bolt gun? That's cool.
 
The remington pumps were pretty good. I have a 742, which pretty close in design, and I love it. It was my father's deer gun.

There are reasons that these things fall by the wayside. The fanboys will scream out loud if I say anything else.

As it stands right now, in strictly sporting arms, completely leaving out any semiauto guns of military design or origin, the bolt owns the world and the lever comes in second. I don't know how many non military based rifles are being made, and I don't know about any significant manufacturing of pump rifles.

For their purpose, as weapons, they are inherently good weapons. They shoot well and accurately enough, and they suit their purpose.

I believe that the pump was the only logical direction to go with shotguns. Repeat rounds from a bolt are slow. doubles are expensive to make and still slow after two rounds. Semiautos are inherently more complicated than a pump, they both use similar designs, but have a gas system and the cost more.

So, we standardized on the pump repeater shotgun with tube magazine because it can do everything we need as shooters, do it well, and be economical. A pump rifle doesn't have the same needs. IMO, either a bolt or a lever can serve the same function of a pump rifle and people just choose what is more familiar and easily available. Even on the used rack, you can only find one pump rifle out of several hundred bolt or levers.
 
Pump rifles were and are popular in areas (like PA) which ban semi-autos for deer and bear hunting. They are almost as fast (considering recovery time from recoil) and as accurate. They suffer from various problems, including limited durability compared with semi-auto rifles derived from military designs.

Jim
 
That's all true. I'm pretty sure that a marlin in big bore would hold up longer, and may be equally accurate, among other considerations, but for example, I always thought that it was fine. the 74- and 76- were supposed to be both floated barrels, used the same bolt and receiver, and for all practical purposes, they were just built with different charging sysems. Both had been available in .35 whelen, the largest round that I guess they were capable of handling with the powder and load development at that time.

I personally believe that either of those weapons in .35 whelen would have been a fine thing to take after any big game in regions where close shooting and easy repeat shots mattered. I'd even feel safe taking them on a grizzly or black bear hunt, but I'd still have some slight misgivings about going toe to toe with them, based only on the slim possibility of a jam for whatever reason it might happen.

The whelen fires 250 grains at 2.5k. You might as well say that it's superior to the .444. the .444 can use 300 grain bullets, but factory energy levels never get above 3k. The whelen uses 180 up to 250 grain weights, and all of them reach 3.5k energy levels. It is a whomping good cartridge, in many ways better than the .444.

Either of them can be argued against. Some people will say that the question should be using a 45-70 Govt, but even so, the heavy 300 grade commercial loads are still significantly slower, and slightly lower in energy than the 250 grain rounds in the whelen. They are completely different rounds, but again, for all practical purposes, about equal.

The 760 pump in 30-06 was far better than a lever 30-30. the pump in .35 whelen is every bit as good as either of the large bore levers in probably every possible way. The main reason, I suspect, that the pump never took off in public support was that the lever has been entrenched as the king of all repeating arms since the first time oliver released a winchester. The only reason the bolt became popular is because maybe millions of men became very comfortable, and very proficient with military bolts. When these men got their hands on millions of surplus rifles during the 30s-70s, and the big gun makers released their iconic 7 series bolt rifles in top quality designs, the bolt became popular beyond the wildest expectations of the die hard lever fans.

So, after all of that talking, my final point would be that there is nothing wrong with the pump system, it just never stood a chance. People already knew what they wanted. there was no real driving reason to change systems, as almost all of america had already settled on their own preferences. Using the garand and N1 variants brought some popularity to the semiauto; the 740 was released in the early 50s. T

Take note that the AR system has been around for civilian use since mid sixties, and really, it took over 30 years before that rifle became a common, household object. I wonder if it ever would have become what it is today if the millions of men who have used them in the military had not liked them. I also wonder what affect the millions of 7.62 eastern block weapons brought into the states may have also had an effect.

With all of the pump shotguns in use, it's mildly surprising that there aren't many people who want a rifle of the same design, but I guess that a pump slug gun is proof that the concept of a pump action rifle isn't completely dead.

A last comment, my father used a 742 in 30-06. I ragged at him sometimes about using the thing, as my bolts were MOA range, and his 742 wouldn't do that. Now that it is mine, and I am a lot older and less of a butthole, I wish I had the opportunity to tell him that I was wrong.
 
BrianDG, my grandfather used an old Rem model 8 in 35 Rem for deer and elk in Utah going back as far as I remember. Of course that was b4 we knew it was only a 100 yard gun:)
I always loved that gun, one because it's what my grandpa shot, and two, it was John Browning first successful autoloader. Over the years I have owned two 8's and an 81, but I finally gave up on them because of that nasty double whack kerchunk recoil. I used to get really pi**ed at my old man for his always ragging on my grandpa over that model 8 Rem. Pretty sure they are joking over it together now, wherever they are.
 
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