Because this is the tactics and training section... that's our job, to dissect other people tactics based on what we are told and decide whether it was a good or bad thing to do... Its not a condemnation of them (though sometimes people turn it into that), but the ability to learn from other peoples successes and mistakes
Tactically is this how it should be done?
- Thread starter wickedrider
- Start date
The overall situation reference a plan of action, was quite simple.
1/ No question as to who the bad guy was, none!
2/ Had gun, shoot BG.
Now of course pre-fight planning, for the next time (lightning does not strike twice) it has.
What has this well documented shooting told the group (us!) we need lots of rounds, effective ones, keep shooting! Sights that work with both eyes open, shoot/practice both eyes open, if your range allows this, put 3 or 4 targets up (to simulate one target, person, moving) people on drugs stop when the brain runs out of gas! Reason, brain shot, or body damage, with the added heart speed helping blood loss.
A very good primer to your gun fight, one which has actually happened, recently, documented reality we can all profit by.
Lesson one, in a gun fight, have a gun!
Keep Safe.
1/ No question as to who the bad guy was, none!
2/ Had gun, shoot BG.
Now of course pre-fight planning, for the next time (lightning does not strike twice) it has.
What has this well documented shooting told the group (us!) we need lots of rounds, effective ones, keep shooting! Sights that work with both eyes open, shoot/practice both eyes open, if your range allows this, put 3 or 4 targets up (to simulate one target, person, moving) people on drugs stop when the brain runs out of gas! Reason, brain shot, or body damage, with the added heart speed helping blood loss.
A very good primer to your gun fight, one which has actually happened, recently, documented reality we can all profit by.
Lesson one, in a gun fight, have a gun!
Keep Safe.
Thanks goes out to KLRANGL....
I was just about to post that much more accurate story of what happened.
It's amazing how dumbed down and un-informative the original story was. the one he posted was a much better story of what happened as well as a great advocate for OC or CCW (The way it SHOULD be)
I was just about to post that much more accurate story of what happened.
It's amazing how dumbed down and un-informative the original story was. the one he posted was a much better story of what happened as well as a great advocate for OC or CCW (The way it SHOULD be)
Unconfirmed report is that the gun was an Uberti. No word on age; newer ones (esp. last 5 or so years) are better than previous.
There are supposedly a few high-quality American-made clones of the 1875 floating around but production was VERY low, odds are still strong this was an Italian gun and Uberti would be the most likely candidate in any case (biggest production numbers).
There are supposedly a few high-quality American-made clones of the 1875 floating around but production was VERY low, odds are still strong this was an Italian gun and Uberti would be the most likely candidate in any case (biggest production numbers).
Composer_1777
Moderator
I'm glad this didn't turn into an anti-gun story. I'm surprised the bg could fight the GO after being shot, seriously?
Oh, it ain't the first time. In the infamous Miami '86 shootout (FBI v. two lunatics name of Platt and Matix) the guy that did most of the killing did so after suffering a mortal wound. Among other medical issues he was spraying blood out one arm's upper inside major artery (blown up by a 9mm Winchester Silvertip that opened correctly) while delivering accurate fire with a Ruger Mini-14 (.223). Horrifying stuff.
To stop somebody who will NOT "psychologically stop" (oww! I better run away or surrender!), you have to do one of the following:
* Drop their blood so they pass out. With a handgun, that means a REALLY major hit to the chest to do so quickly enough they can't return fire, and even that's iffy. With a rifle shot to the chest, hydrostatic damage to surrounding areas can take out multiple major blood vessels at once and odds of a stop go up. But that doesn't happen with handguns...wellll...I take that back, it CAN, but you have to deliver big power to a rib bone or sternum, shatter that and use pieces of bone as secondary shrapnel throughout the chest. A very hot 357 can make that shot, but it's not at all guaranteed.
* Break the upper spine or brain.
Composer_1777
Moderator
Wow i am fairly new to guns; some interesting stuff I am learning.
onthejon55
Moderator
lets jus say that if i had been in that situation my gun would have been empty before it was all said and done
1986 Miami shoot out
This was a very unique incident in the annals of bad guys, against Cops (FBI) in as much as the mind set of the Agents was Arrest/Apprehend mode, the two criminals had shown their mind set in the previous escapades they had been involved in "Shoot armored car guy dead, take cash"
The one word for the BGs MO, "kill" and the main man so to speak, had a Mini 14 Ruger, in .223, one he had fired a lot of rounds through.
The FBI blamed every one, even the 9MM WW Silvertip round, which performed exactly as designed, the advent of the .40S&W cartridge came about from this show down, when the 9mm and .45 ACP had been killing people quite effectively for close to 100 years.
The blame the other guy/ammo/tools, is entrenched in the annals of shift the blame in our society. In googling the massive amount of info on this one FBI Shootout? Mind boggling!
This was a very unique incident in the annals of bad guys, against Cops (FBI) in as much as the mind set of the Agents was Arrest/Apprehend mode, the two criminals had shown their mind set in the previous escapades they had been involved in "Shoot armored car guy dead, take cash"
The one word for the BGs MO, "kill" and the main man so to speak, had a Mini 14 Ruger, in .223, one he had fired a lot of rounds through.
The FBI blamed every one, even the 9MM WW Silvertip round, which performed exactly as designed, the advent of the .40S&W cartridge came about from this show down, when the 9mm and .45 ACP had been killing people quite effectively for close to 100 years.
The blame the other guy/ammo/tools, is entrenched in the annals of shift the blame in our society. In googling the massive amount of info on this one FBI Shootout? Mind boggling!
Yeah, basically the bullet everyone blamed post-shoot was a 9mm Winnie Silvertip 115gr that expanded perfectly and traveled through about 14" of tissue - up the forearm, brief airgap past the bent elbow, through the inside upper arm (taking out THE major blood vessel), out the arm, into the chest, stopped an inch or so short of the heart.
Obviously the bullet's fault. Not.
So that led them to the 10mm at 700ft/lbs energy or more, which started cracking their early-model S&W 10mm guns, plus the grip didn't fit smaller hands, and the recoil drove many of 'em nuts. So they VERY quickly ordered milder 10mm loads (the "10mm lite") at around 500ft/lbs energy with weaker slide springs to match, but that meant the gun was still oversize for the power.
So somebody at S&W realized you can take the 10mm case, shorten it to 9mm length, make a gun the size of a 9mm and the power of the 10mm lite.
That's how the 40S&W was born, and yeah, it started with the Miami86 shooting.
Now looking at all this years later, I took a different tack: I think they were RIGHT the first time on horsepower, they should have stuck with the 10mm or similar power but in a gun that's more controllable by nature. I'm not at all the first to think so, in fact a LONG time ago the 41Magnum was designed for this exact same purpose. Today, very good 357 loads by Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap match or exceed the effectiveness of most 10mm and even 41Mag, and since it's cheaper to shoot I went there - in a gun that lets me control that kind of power.
Ruger's New Vaquero in 357.
I knew I'd be modding the sights - didn't know I'd go THIS far
eek but it works.
The result is something with high practical accuracy (solving the major issue the FBI ran into in Miami) and big, big power (solving the other issue).
Obviously the bullet's fault. Not.
So that led them to the 10mm at 700ft/lbs energy or more, which started cracking their early-model S&W 10mm guns, plus the grip didn't fit smaller hands, and the recoil drove many of 'em nuts. So they VERY quickly ordered milder 10mm loads (the "10mm lite") at around 500ft/lbs energy with weaker slide springs to match, but that meant the gun was still oversize for the power.
So somebody at S&W realized you can take the 10mm case, shorten it to 9mm length, make a gun the size of a 9mm and the power of the 10mm lite.
That's how the 40S&W was born, and yeah, it started with the Miami86 shooting.
Now looking at all this years later, I took a different tack: I think they were RIGHT the first time on horsepower, they should have stuck with the 10mm or similar power but in a gun that's more controllable by nature. I'm not at all the first to think so, in fact a LONG time ago the 41Magnum was designed for this exact same purpose. Today, very good 357 loads by Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap match or exceed the effectiveness of most 10mm and even 41Mag, and since it's cheaper to shoot I went there - in a gun that lets me control that kind of power.
Ruger's New Vaquero in 357.
I knew I'd be modding the sights - didn't know I'd go THIS far
eek but it works.The result is something with high practical accuracy (solving the major issue the FBI ran into in Miami) and big, big power (solving the other issue).