tactical training

I'm sorry if I've misunderstood your post. (I do that sometimes) As I see it anyone who consider's themself a professional would want to continue his/her education at their chosen field. If someone is paying me to protect something with a firearm... I'd bet that somewhere there is a real threat. If or when that threat manifests I'd want to win the confrontation. Simply having a firearm isnt going to cut the mustard. Police officers, security guards, Armed citizens get killed often enough to prove that. I'd want an edge on anyone confronting me... In most cases that edge would be called Tactics...

I believe myself to be as good any anyone and better than most in an armed confrontation... much better than most. I fully understand and use tactics, and equipment giving me the tactical edge. I wasnt born that way... I was trained, and I practice. Now that I'm older and less in harms way.... I still train, and practice. I have no problem listening and getting new information and opinions from others. Fully 90% of the members here are pretty much the same... Not because of some magic... But they train, and they practice. Tactics. We all have guns... But it's how you use them, when you use them, if you use them... and thats tactics.

However I do enjoy dressing up and playing army in the woods every now and then...

Glenn D.
 
I have never taken a Tactical Training Class and I never will. I'm not against you people who feel the need to train but it's not for me. I carried a Glock 19 as my duty weapon for 14 years as a Security Officer and had to qualify once a year. The only time I had to remove my gun from my holster was to clean it.
IMO, in a real gunfight for your self defense, there will be no time to use these tactics because things will happen so fast, the fight will be over in just a few seconds. Tactical Training is great for Police/Military people but not really for the average person who just carries for personal protection. You may think I'm crazy but I think all this Tactical stuff is just a waste of time and money. It's your time and your money so have fun!
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Grave yards are filled with folks who think like you. There is a reason LE and Military train and thats because it is proved that you will fight as you train. In your case you will likely only survive thru luck.
 
sek2344 said:
...in a real gunfight for your self defense, there will be no time to use these tactics because things will happen so fast,...
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This statement tells me that you have no idea what some of the things we learn in those classes are.
 
Returning fire while moving away is not recommended by any instructor I can think of, it decreases your hit probability and may make you more vulnerable depending on how you retreat.
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Shooting while retreating (with a variety of minor variations) is a fairly commonly taught and recommended tactic for those caught without cover.

http://www.blackwaterwatch.com/2011...services-shooting-while-retreating-multiples/

http://bushcraftusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19193 (Describes a class/instructor which teaches shooting while retreating.)

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/fist-fire-shield-rankings/ (Mentioned as covered in one course)

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunDrills.pdf (Several Drills involve shooting while retreating. Hackathorn teaches it. So does Leatham.)

Langdon does.
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ed-Pistol-Class-21-22-August-2010-Culpeper-VA (Mentions shooting while retreating as being taught.)
 
I'm pretty sure if someone starts shooting at you, you are going to move your feet. The question is, can you move your feet and effectively return fire? If you can, it's almost surely because you trained and practiced it. There are people who know things about how to do it that are willing to teach it to those who don't know. I prefer to know. You make your choice.
 
Johnksa, the blackwater video is footage of shooters standing and delivering, turning then running, stopping turning.around and.standing and delivering. They are not firing while retreating. The initial engagement might not have neutralized the threat and then they make themselves vulnerable by turning their back and staying on the line of attack, basically racing with bullets.

One of the drills is shooting controlled pairs while changing your distance by a whopping 7-8 yards. Also still on the initial line of attack, how is this greatly different then stand in deliver?

moving around cones on a square range is great and fun, however the areas in which common shootings occur may not permit this and may make you more vulnerable. I understand that one tool doesn't do all jobs so we train to develop a tool bag. And I agree with that theory. I think that a lot of people develop bad training scars based off a tactical class and become the karate black belt who thinks the spinning back is undefeatable.

Lamb, Vickers, Haley are tier 1 operators are some examples of those who are against firing while.retreating.I'll listen to a tier 1 operator with plenty of real world experience over a court officer, marine psd, competition shooter. Feel free to do as you please and good luck in your future endeavours.
 
Yup, should have watched the video on that one.

The point is that a number of handgun instructors do recommend firing while in the process of actually moving away from the threat.
...how is this greatly different then stand in deliver?
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It's different because it's "Returning fire while moving away" as opposed to moving away without returning fire or returning fire without moving away.
I'll listen to a tier 1 operator with plenty of real world experience over a court officer, marine psd, competition shooter.
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That's certainly your prerogative and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. However, that doesn't change the fact that while there may be some instructors who recommend against returning fire while moving away, there are certainly a number of them who teach the tactic.

By the way, Vickers does appear teach shooting while retreating. Here's a video of some of his students in one of the Vickers Tactical classes practicing that tactic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TbrFhYojac
 
Firing while retreating is something our local IDPA club definitely includes in IDPA matches and training scenarios.

Usually the "retreat" part is to get behind some kind of barricade.
 
I have had instructors ranging from Gabe Suarez to Ken Hackathorn teach shooting while moving to one degree or another. In fact, I can't think of any instructor that I have had that didn't teach some form of shooting on the move. Some, like Suarez, emphasize it more than others.
 
Except for my Barret classes which were not about defensive shooting, I can't think of a single class where we did not shoot while retreating, while actually in motion and moving backwards and-or backwards diagonally including classes at Thunder Ranch (DHI, II, and HIT), Rangemaster, from Ken Hackathorn, and various carbine and shotgun courses from local instructors.

Teaching to not shoot while retreating would appear to be a poor choice as would to not teach shooting while retreating.
 
Returning fire while moving away is not recommended by any instructor I can think of, it decreases your hit probability and may make you more vulnerable depending on how you retreat.
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HUH?

Apparently you don't know many instructors. Shooting while moving is taught.

Schools and instructors pop up all the time. Seems like everyone who was in the Marines, or LE, etc. has started some sort of school or other, some good and some bad.

It's hard to dispute that one of the Best is the Army Marksmanship Unit. It's their goal, their mission since President Ike started it in the mid 50s. Since just about every major organizations, including the FBI, Marines, Civilian LE, and military has taken advantage of their training.

The AMU in partnership with the CMP (another organization mandated by congress to provide marksmanship training to US Citizens) produce a series of training tapes/DVDs/books, toward that goal.

The AMU/CMP teach SHOOTING WHILE MOVING. I highly recommend their DVD "Close Quarters Marksmanship". It covers shooting on the move (plus a lot of other goals), both in the advance, and retreat. ($6.95 at the CMP E-Store/Bookstore).

Being retired LE, I have to qualify once a year to comply to carry per the LEOSA or HR 218. In a common qualification course is a stage where you must fire while retreating.

Here is a couple of the stages used in the qualification. This is from Oregon's:

At 2 yards draw while taking a step back and shooting - 2 rounds in 3 seconds
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At 5 yards shoot 2 rounds until empty then moving while completing a combat reload then continue engaging a threat - 8 rounds in 15 seconds
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At 15 yards conduct an "L" movement, moving to protective cover which is at 10 yards and firing from behind cover - 3 rounds in 15 seconds including movement
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Some require moving to cover to shoot, some require shooting while moving.

Regardless of the instruction you receive, or the courses you take, they wont make you proficient in the use of a revolver/pistol. Practicing what you have learned will.

There are several venues to practice the skills, ISPC, USPSA, ICORE, etc etc. Whats great about this type of competition is you don't know the course of fire until just before you shoot, (unless you are involved in the set up).

Schools and instruction give you the basics, practicing those basics give you the muscle memory to put those basics to use.

Shooting while moving does not have to slow you down putting you in danger. If an old slow man like me can do it, you youngsters can.

An example, in practicing for the above qualification course, using my old duty Hoyt Holster and belt, a stock mode 64, playing with my shot timer, I start in the surrender position,at the beep, while moving draw and fire two shoots averaging 1.43 seconds while keeping all the shots in the "A" section of the USPSA target.

While moving around, shooting two rounds, reloading with speed loaders (w/SWC bullet) I do the loading stage right around 7 seconds.

And remember I'm old, and have stiff bones. Think what you younger people could do with a bit of practice.
 
I would go out on a limb to say that instructors who don't teach shooting while on the move are just behind the times.

I will pose a question to those who don't like shooting on the move. If I am able to hit my target with multiple shots while on the move in any direction, why should I not move? This questions is when caught out in the open and far from cover.

One of the drills is shooting controlled pairs while changing your distance by a whopping 7-8 yards. Also still on the initial line of attack, how is this greatly different then stand in deliver?
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7 or 8 FEET much less yards could make the difference between being hit solid or being grazed or even missed all together. Making the badguy track you can induce or expose improper grip and trigger pull causing hits to be misses. There really is only positives from moving while shooting provided you have developed the skill to do so. BTW It ain't that hard either.
 
7 or 8 FEET much less yards could make the difference between being hit solid or being grazed or even missed all together.
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Or the difference between being cut/stabbed and escaping uninjured.
 
Returning fire while moving away is not recommended by any instructor I can think of, it decreases your hit probability and may make you more vulnerable depending on how you retreat.
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Pick up this month's copy of American Rifleman from the NRA. It has a good article on a "basic" 100 round defensive practice routine. In that article the writer says clearly that using movement is a must learn skill.

Viking Tactics teaches shooting while moving in their Pistol 1.5 class. Larry Vickers teaches it in his Pistol 1 class. Thunder Ranch teaches it in their Defensive Handgun 1 course. Front Sight teaches it in their defensive handgun classes. Chuck Taylor's ASAA teaches it. Massad Ayoob teaches it in his classes. Just go read up on the reviews and descriptions of the training these instructors/schools offer.

The point is that nearly every one of the big instructors and schools of the last twenty years has taught to move while shooting. Even the NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home course I took included moving while shooting.

A simple piece of advice, never turn your back in a fight and never move torwards the primary hand unless you have too. Those apply to everything from street fighting to gun fighting. That should clear up the issue of being more vulnerable when moving.
 
"You must do what you feel is right of course." OB1 Kinobi (sorry for my flashback):D

it's cliche and leaves a grey area, but it is the truth. One must trust his gut and act on instinct when the time comes. If it goes down and my priority while defending my life or family is eliminating the threat(and I think I can do it by standing and delivering), I will. I might take some shots back, but I know what I can do on my end. Rushed and/or panicked shots miss, and running and shooting misses more too. Maybe I can back up while I shoot, orpossibly I might approach while I unload and eliminate the threat. That being said, this is just my take.

I do know tactics train to shoot while moving and at shooting targets. I also only gave one example. There would be many others where retreating and shooting, taking cover, or shooting while moving would Definately be the better option. I can only say that I hope I can move deliberately and shoot accurately if the situation ever presents itself. I do know I can shoot accurately; it is just the more factors that compound themselves, the harder it is to multitask(this is why training is a lifesaver). Even moreso, there are times when one might fire with little chance of hitting a target: example, trying to get to cover while under attack. that would be the pretty much worst scenario.

I think there was a thread about the detroit precinct shooting when this happened for some before targets were better engaged(an armed gunman walked into the police station opening fire). In that case, the main priority was seeking cover. Accuracy of shots took a back seat for the moment. When I shoot my main focus is to hit my target(most probably with multiple shots). I can't hope one will be enough when someone is trying to end my life. It is important to be able to move though: become a more difficult target, etc. It just all depends. No matter what: training is always a good idea. In closing, making a timely and accurate shot is a priority in my best case scenario only. Sometimes this isn't possible, but as timely as possible and accurate shots are of grave importance. Hopefully I can get a good shot(s) while moving at the very least.
 
Shooting on the move is new? I was trained to shoot on the move in the Army nearly 30 years ago. Sure, it's more difficult than static shooting but then it's also a lot more difficult to stay alive when the targets shoot back.
 
With all due respect, someone who never took a class talking about tactical training is very much like a virgin talking about sex. Knowing how to shoot and be safe doing it, knowing how to hit game or clay birds/paper targets or steel, competing in combat shooting games is a good basic preparation in many ways but it does not necessarily translate to knowing how to fight successfully with a gun.

Not even formal military or LE training teaches as much as the best instructors out there in the private sector teach. Every private sector class I've ever had included at least a few students who were active duty military or LEOs, there on their own dime, looking to learn more about how to survive and prevail in a gunfight.
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The skills involved in hunting are the same skills used in a gun fight.. Certainly gunfight specific training is going to come with advantages and knowledge more applicable but that does not reduce the skill of the hunter who can hit a moving target.

Having gone to a gunfighting class does not somehow convert your skin to armor and having soldiers in civilian classes seems fairly logical when its your profession and you want to go above and beyond and most units train only once a year on rifle skills or pistol skills.

The truth of the matter is there are very few people in the world that have been in more than a few gun fights (outside the military) and the militarys current brand of marksmanship is a far cry from the skills and techniques that use to be taught and a book description doesnt hold a candle to long term marksmanship experience...

Our armed forces could certainly use some civilan instructor to be brought in not so much because they have some super secret techniques but rather people who love to shoot and do the same thing over and over get to learn all the little secrets of great shooting. Hunters generally fall into this category... not always but often...
 
double naught spy

I dunno. Being trained improperly seems to get people killed on a regular basis.
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I hear you, but a seatbelt killed a driver one time because of an accident(the seatbelt turned out to trap the man and he died).

I'll take my chances with the extra training & my seatbelt.
 
BGutzman said:
The skills involved in hunting are the same skills used in a gun fight.. Certainly gunfight specific training is going to come with advantages and knowledge more applicable but that does not reduce the skill of the hunter who can hit a moving target...
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I don't know. I've never been worried about the pheasant shooting back at me. Nor have I ever needed to assess whether or not the actions of a pheasant constituted a lethal threat justifying my response with lethal force.

Certainly the hunter's skills at field-craft and marksmanship are entitled to respect. But they are not necessarily the most useful skills when defending against a home invader or an armed robber.
 
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