Tactical mistakes at WACO.

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I'm not sure how "tactics" is being defined in this discussion. I define tactics as the methods used on site to execute the mission, not the why or the "is this right" side of it.

The biggest thing I'd be concerned about in the raid's execution is the wholesale use of indiscriminate firepower at the compound. If I was an agent who got a successful entry inside the compound and then there's bullets flying through the walls, what in the world am I to do?

Would radio chatter be something like "friendlies in the compound, check fire" to be answered with "hostile fire coming from your side. You're on your own, buddy"??

From what little I know about dynamic entries and building clearances, there has to be a very detailed plan in place for communicating to all friendlies that "This room cleared" as well as a careful plan for taking the compound down without endangering fellow officers.

I'm not an expert, just an RKI.

Edmund
 
The Jews in Europe pre-1938 would have certainly been in better shape if they HAD stockpiled all those illegal weapons, ammo, and more besides...now wouldn't they? Before you answer consider that a few score Jewish heroes armed with a pitiful handful of firearms and ammunition held off the German "dynamic entry" of the Warsaw Ghetto for longer than the Polish Army resisted the invasion of Poland. Consider the result if six million Jews as well as the additional six million Poles, gypsies, and whoever else "qualified"...had fought for their lives.

Not much on tactics here or strategy. More on the level of doctrine.

I've seen two federal investigations. Judging the ethics of the agents involved by their actions in each unrelated investigation... if a federal agent told me the sun was rising in the east I'd grab a compass and go outside to check. Before I get flamed by LEO's let me state I like, respect, and admire many of the city policemen, deputy sheriffs, state troopers, and state investigators I know...to date none of the federal agents I've met make the grade.

[This message has been edited by Spartacus (edited 12-12-98).]
 
Morgan, I'm sorry, but I just can't remember the source of that article, or the name of the author. My guess would be that it was in the Mesa or Scottsdale Tribune, Arizona Republic or the Wall Street Journal. Sounds like something James Bovard would write, but that's a guess.


o1paw, I never heard of any civilian groups being formed after this, but I know I would never join such a group unless things became much, much more dire. I don't care to have my home searched or my tax returns audited. ;)

Mikep, I think Spartacus and Spectre hit the nail right on the head. When I read your comment I thought immediately of Warsaw, 1943. At that point in time the Jews gathered every weapon they could lay their hands on. The web site for the National Holocaust Museum has some great information on this uprising, and Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership ( http://www.jpfo.org/ ) have some unique insight into this question as well. I would only add that while the Davidians may have broken some firearms laws (and others?), it hardly justified the result we witnessed. I never, ever thought I would see in my lifetime such callous disregard by federal agents for the lives of innocent children (at the very least). Finally, while we all have to live within the laws of the land, I would suggest that our country's legal system has evolved to such an extent that our government(s) can probably bust almost any one of us for breaking one or more laws at any time. Perhaps ten years from now it will be illegal to eat hamburger, and then we'll see the FBI's hostage rescue team staking out clandestine burger grills! ;)

I know this topic is supposed to be about tactics, so I'll drop out. However, this incident was so 'unAmerican' that it pains me to ignore the underlying rationale and tragic results in human life ... and in lost respect for the federal agencies involved. What a damn shame. Thank you.
 
Spartacus-
Respectfully, generalization is the the first step down the road to ignorance and ignorance is the path to slavery.

To wit: you are a Registered Nurse...were you to become a QA Nurse, you'd be considered by many in your industry, the lowest form of life in the universe. Hardly reasonable since you, hopefully, would still be you.

Regarding Federal Officers, I have several that I consider friends....and I know one or two who'd take a bullet in defense of our freedoms more quickly than most of us.

I believe there *is* bad management in many Federal Agencies...BATF being the prime example; IRS running a close second. There are even pockets of bad agents in Federal Agencies. However, since these agencies seem to be here to stay, our feeding into the growing polarization serves no purpose other than to hasten the trend toward a police state, as it alienates those who are just trying to do an honorable job.

Off my soapbox.
Rich
ps: I have yet to see acceptable evidence that the BATF received heavy fire from the Davidian home when they attacked. However, when the shooting starts, it's pretty tough for individual agents to determine who started it.

I wonder what the Founding Fathers would say about this incident in light of the fact that the infamous Boston Massacre ended with 2 (5?) persons dead.

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 12-13-98).]
 
I can understand people's concern over the WACO incident, however, once the wheels were in motion, you've dedicated youself. I find that many don't know the true facts of some of the factors such as the FBI inserted extremely high tech listening devices to listen in and hopefully know positions. If you were lucky enough to hear the tapes you can hear orders being given to torch the place in different places which were also consistant with the arial photos of many small fires at different locations. I also wish everyone was able to view the video tapes made inside by KORESH and some of the negotiations which gives a better understanding of his insanity and the haunting audio tapes hearing the execution one by one of the kids and elders that had "taken refuge" in the concrete bunker under the tower with KORESH.

My point to this is that yes, ATF and FBI may have made some mistakes but the fact is they had a legal warrant and how long should it take to turn yourself in when knowing your under arrest? So is every person you arrest now ok to get into a philosophical debate before he's off to the klink?

They had to use whatever weapons and tactics that were authorized by their agency. If you don't like that then push for better weapons than 9mm sub guns.

As far as guns and gear I thought everyone there did as good as they could have under the circumstances. I would like to hear what they could have done better based on the real facts, not on a paranoid alarmist's anti-government post WACO video.
 
Azone,
Ok. I'll bite! (I feel you were "fishing" for rebuttal with your "paranoid, alarmist" comment.)
Part of the problem is we civilians are not given the complete story - total and free of bias. Part of the problem for you is that we live in a country where some civilians have the (perhaps mistaken) impression we have the right to question why tanks were used on civilians. Why were the front doors disposed of so quickly? Why was the place bulldozed so quickly? Why was the NRA told they could examine the so-called fully automatic firearms - but when BATF learned NRA would x-ray (or whatever) the guns to learn if they were in fact auto or semi-auto access was immediately cancelled without explanation?
I'm not attacking the BATF (at the moment) for anything other than their secrecy. To permit only certain information to be published, to blatantly hide and distort facts (even AFTER the trials are over) wipes out the BATF's right to be insulted when "paranoid alarmists" ask, "What the heck happened? And why won't you tell me?"
And about being a nurse. I'm an EMT-Basic. I teach First Aid and CPR for a living.
But my background is twenty years in military intelligence. I can continue this conversation in Russian or German if you so desire. (I've lost my Polish, Hindustani, and Urdu language skills due to lack of use.)
I am also an American, as you are, and as the nurse is. I also support my local LEOs and LE agencies, physically, financially, morally, and with my teaching skills. Don't you EVER imply we "civilians" have lost the right to question your actions - regardless of what our profession happens to be. We have the right to question law enforcement because we're Americans.
I'll quit now because I'm pissed.


[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited 12-13-98).]
 
Everyone please take a deep breath and count to 10. The Firing Line is an excercise in exchange of ideas...it is not rec.guns.

We have attracted a higher percentage of LEO's than most other boards for a reason...this site provides an interface for civil discussion and debate. I can not allow it to degenerate into a pissing contest.

I sat thru and recorded the entire Senate Hearings on Waco in 1995. I personally believe it was the single, greatest FUBAR perpetrated by Federal Law Enforcement on the American Public. I personally believe the military was duped into violating the doctrine of Posse Comitatus. I personally believe careers should have been ended (beginning with Janet Reno) and criminal charges considered. While I may personally believe I'm right, I also respect others' rights to disagree.

However, we can not allow every (or even most) Federal agents to be held responsible....any more than we can allow every citizen who refuses to own a firearm to be labeled "Sheeple", or every NRA member to be labeled a crazed, militia marching, NeoNazi. When we fall into these traps, the we all loose.

This discussion is already *way* off topic. We will allow it to continue, only because I, too, have contributed and it would be unfair to deny others the same right. But I ask you each to keep it civil...I know that is difficult in light of the deaths of scores of American citizens (both private and LEO)....but I think we can do it.

To this end, let me offer the first apology to Spartacus. In rereading my post to you, I can see how it might be interpreted as an ad hominem attack...please accept my sincere apology and my pledge that it was never intended as such.

OK....exhale :).
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 12-13-98).]
 
Rich,
Sorry. Reread my post. I did not generalize. I specifically limited my observations to the federal agents I have seen with my own eyes. No media or hearsay was mentioned. Granted I have only seen about 15 in action. I am also open to the possibility that there are many honorable agents. I have one question for them: How can you consider yourself to be honorable defenders of the Constitution while taking the orders of Ms. Reno, Mr. Freeh, Mr. Clinton, et. al.? The FBI agents from the Ruby Ridge incident who testified in open court that they disregarder the "modified" rules of engagement for those rules were obviously illegal were honorable men. Wonder how their careers are doing in relation to Lon Horiuchi?

There is no excuse, no mitigating circumstance, and no ex post facto rationalization which will justify the federal government's actions at Waco. Waco was the result of arrogant abuse of power and a blatant disregard for the Constitution as well as-apparently- an utter lack of humanity.

On a humorous note in regard to your observation about Quality Assurance nurses. I've a friend who was written up for only obtaining one IV access on a trauma patient when the standard of care is for a minimum of two large bore IV's. His reply? "Well, since the patient was on a stretcher hanging from the side of a cliff, at 2AM, and in a blinding deluge of a thunderstorm...I'm actually very proud of what you described as my substandard care of this patient>."
 
--swooping down from the rafters...--

Okay. I have watched this thread develop and even sent out a couple of private emails a couple of days ago, because of where I thought it was going. Well it got there.
I thank Rich for stepping in, as I did not feel it was my place to do so, but now that he has commented....

Spartacus,
What you did was make a typical statement. I would expect to here it in many settings, but I would prefer not to read it at TFL. I respect just about everyone here very much and have recommended this site to a great many people as what a Forum should be. No offense to anyone who particpated, but I felt that this topic was loaded. Spartacus pulled the trigger.
You did generalize when you stated:
"if a federal agent told me the sun was rising in the east I'd grab a compass and go outside to check"
Hey, I generalize all the time, but not to denigrate a group of people who out there standing on the line trying to protect our country. Sure, many of them make mistakes, but a great many more of them do the right thing, every day. A guy with a badge should get the benefit of the doubt until he proves he doesn't deserve it, IMHO.

I've been on both sides of an investigation and understand that things are not always fair-- for either side.


Everyone,
Discussing the Tactics involved at Waco is kinda like discussing the JFK Assassination. Lots of theories, lots of ideas, but only a few people were there. Only a few people really know what happened. As none of them are here it is kinda hard to have something to really discuss.

This is a great resource that we have, one that everyone can contribute to in one way or another. It will only get better if we continue to add facts, ideas and opinions. If we start throwing accusation and conjecture into the mix, we will follow a whole lot of other online forums into a maze of immaturity, bad info, personality cults and flame wars.

This is all my opinion, FWIW, if I've stepped over a line, send me an email and I'll edit this whole message to read:

"Hey, whatever, come find me when you're ready to talk guns...."

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-Essayons
 
Rich, no problem here. Wasn't offended then...not offended now. FWIW, the local, county, and state LEO's I've talked with share my opinion of the Federal law enforcement agencies, i.e, they need a thorough house cleaning from the top down and a watchdog Congressional committee such as the intelligence community must coordinate with. Let's talk guns.
 
Okay, If there is anything left to say on the politics of this situation, lets take it to the Political Forum.


Spectre,

If you have a problem with this thread getting closed down, send me an Email.

-Rob

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-Essayons
 
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