Tactical 30-30?

D

Dave McC

Staff In Memoriam
I ran across a reference in Col Cooper's columns about a lever action 30-30's worth in some scenarios. I've oft thought that a fast handling and firing Win 94 would be a good cruiser gun and useful in private life also.

I'd go with a ghost ring peep, trigger job and a sling,otherwise not many mods. Anyone out there actually done this?

Thanks....
 
You may be interested in the work Jim Brockman is doing with Marlin's lever guns.

Basically, you could have most or all modifications done to a Winchester as well.

Although the idea of a "politically correct good ol'cowboy" lever action gun for "social situations" is intriguing, I have decided to go the bolt action route using Brockman's bolt action works as my major inspiration.

His website is www.brockmansrifles.com
 
Thanks, DeBee, that's kinda the idea. The Marlin is an excellent piece, but it runs close to a lb heavier than the 94.

I had a piece a while back that could have fit your parameters, a sporterized 03-A3 with Lyman peep. It still used strippers for fast reloads and handled well. But, it did run about 8 lbs empty.

I'm looking more for a light woods carbine that could also have defensive capabilities outside the house. A truck gun, as it were.

Ironically, I had one about 10 years back, but swapped it off after the proverbial case of the Wild Hair.20-20 hindsight(G)....
 
The Brockman BEAST rifle... I want that...

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
 
I read your post and thought of another. The gallery gun type pumps. I believe that(rossi???) still makes them in pistol calibers. Most of the manufacturers used to make them up to a .35 remington, that would be a hell of a fast acting close range pump gun.
 
Ah, but the M-94 really evokes that "cowboy spirit."

BTW, Dave, among my friends I count... 4, right offhand, who have "tactical lever actions." All are M-94's, only one is new-style, and it's the only one not .30-30. (.45 Colt Trapper) All have good peep sights, good triggers and actions, a decent sling, and a 9-shot buttcuff full of Silvertips, plus what's in the magazine.

None of these guys look at all threatening, but not a one of them is to be f- er, messed with.
 
The 30-30 has about the same ballistics as the Russian 7.62x39. Something most AK-47 and SKS owners don't realize.

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When Guns Are Outlawed, I Will Be Another One Of The Quarter Million Violators Who Are Not Prosecuted
 
Dave, you and I think alike.

I have a Sporterized '03. I had an action rebarreled in a 30-06 (naturally) #3 profile and mated it to a fancy walnut stock I got a good deal on. Rust blued the thing too. Now it's so heavy I'm thinking of building a gun carriage to haul it around with. It turned out to be a beautiful piece of artillery and has that "old style gun look". It's too heavy to be practical.

It will have to stay in the rack for now as I am currently obsessed with finding a Winchester 70 Stainless Classic in .308 and cutting the barrel to 20", fixing a post front sight on it, Warne peep base rear, front base, pillar bedding it, tuning the trigger, rounding over the top of the recoil pad and then it will be perfect. Now I have to find one...Winchester stopped making them.

I prefer the Winchester levers over the Marlins. I like the pre-safety models. I recently passed on a used one at the shop last month and because of a little rust on the receiver it was cheap. I've regretted it ever since. Turns out my FFL dealer bought it for his son! He showed to me and told me what a deal he got- polished the rust right off with Flitz and oil! Arg salt in my wounds... Should I get another chance at one I'd make the following mods: Tang sight, post front, trigger job if necessary, a little moly grease in the action, leather sling (keeping with the cowboy theme and avoiding the "evil black rifle appearance", and I might try the butt cuff ammo holder again but I had one for my shotgun and it was junk. Need to try different brands...

Win 94 minimum mods, no flashlights, no tritium, no glass, no plastic. Fast and Flat. Light and Lethal.
 
Thanks,folks. Rob, I don't want a pistol caliber. While this will be a light duty utility weapon ,I want more range than a 44 or such will offer.

Long Path, sounds like good friends to have!
And looks are deceiving. I've known some stone cold killers that looked like choirboys, and vice versa. I'd guess the fellow with the 45 Colt carbine has handguns in that caliber.

Mikey,I'm aware of the ballistics, used to say just that to folks that would run across me and my SKS during deer season. No longer have the SKS, decided all weapons in the Casa were to have Made In USA graven upon them.

DeBee, can't say about the Winchester. Only 70 I ever had was made in 1946, the year I was born. Good gun but it was delusional. While it was a standard grade, it kept believing it was a target rifle(G). Shot tiny little groups(inch and a quarter @ 100 yds) with a Leopold 4X. Wish I still had it,of course.

I called around and found a used new model in a local shop. I'll look at it manana, work interferes today.

Ammo resupply is a little problem. Butt cuffs are not what's wanted,they clutter up thr weapon and change the handling. But, this will not be used to lay suppressive fire, so less rounds will be needed. A full mag and maybe 20 rounds will be full field kit, and maybe 5 rounds for hunting.Of course, crossed bandoliers a la Mexican Bandito, might look spiffy(G)...

Mods will be limited, good trigger,sling, better sights. Favoring the Lyman Peep, tho I recall one rifle I owned long ago with a tang sight was outstanding in accuracy for a piece of its type.And while I'm partial to synthetic stocks on working bolt actions, this'un will keep the wood.

Have a good'un...
 
Gunsite customizes and sells a Tactical Lever action based on the Winchester 94 and I think the Marlins (not sure though). They come with action jobs and peep sites plus a really big price tag!
 
Those last four words,"really big price tag" give me a case of the vapors. I know Gunsite has no compromise with quality, but being retired and having Daughter in college leaves me just a mite short on discretionary income.

And in this case, how necessary? 94s (and 336s) have a long reputation for reliability and durability.Putting a decent trigger on and polishing the action(if needed) is not
terribly difficult,even for a hamhanded, tool challenged Techno-idiot like me.

Thanks and have a good'un...
 
I have a pre-safty MD.94 "Tacticle" Here is the skinny on the mods. Uncle Mikes sling and swivles,Lyman rear peep sight,Front brass bead, custom bullet cuff on stock.

I was lucky and traded for it at a gun show.
It is a Wrangler model 16"bbl, Large loop.

What I suggest for mods are Ashley scout sights,slightly enlarged lever, and Uncle Mikes QD 115 LRB swivels. Mount the sling as swivels on the left side of the gun so It lies flat against your back. Carry the gun muzzel down on the strong side. This is more compact and comptfortable. With a little prectice you can get the gun into firing battery very fast from carry. This also works very well with any "slab side" rifle or carbine.

Cheers,

ts
 
Mine is a Winchester Model 94, produced in either 1953 or 55 In .30-30 WCF of course. The barrel is cut at 16 inches and magazine capacity is five. Lyman receiver peep rear sight with the screw-in aperture removed. Plain flat top post front, though I do all right with a gold bead on a friend's similarly set up 20-inch carbine.

Sling swivels with one-inch latigo leather carry strap. Butt cuff carries nine rounds, Winchester Silvertips.

This arm has no Alaskan lever, saddle ring, scope, laser, flashlight, holo sight or other bells, whistles. It is simply a short, light, convenient carbine, handy as pockets on a shirt and about as burdensome as a walking stick. It was well-used and dinged, but mechanically perfect before I got it. It is in considerably better working condition than I am now.

I was lucky in getting a (then) $200 firearm with $150 worth of work already done, for under $200. The pre-64 aspect was a bonus that came with the custom work being done by a noteworthy 'smith in West Texas. The topping was the fact that the Crockett County Sheriff needed money to buy a couple of Ruger SAs and I had cash in my jeans.

A fairly late, but pre-crossbolt safety, model 94 can be had, used, quite reasonably. The aluminum Williams receiver sight is very serviceable, and perhaps less tempermental than the Lyman, for a lot less money. Unless you luck into one of the short-barrel .30-30s, I'd say to use it in 20-inch trim for at least a year. The large, "Alaskan" loop is kinda fun, but it really gets in the way when stowing the arm in a rack or gun case or saddle scabbard.

Opt for the .30-30, for a serious gun. The pistol calibers are fine for Cowboy action shooting or plinking, but a peep sighted .30-30 150 grain is sporting on deer beyond 150 yards, IF YOU PRACTICE, and will keep bad guys behind their cars or rocks at 300.

The cartridge is one of the easier rifle calibers to load for, and you can get a lot of loads out of a pound of 3031 or 748. leave the fine old 170 grain loads for the odd time when you might encounter bear, because the 150 gr. has a much flatter trajectory.

I wish I had some tales of high drama for my old 94, but I don't. One may bear repeating. ---
After some 14 hours and amid a certain confusion, we came upon three young jailbreakers who were deciding whether to continue their merry flight. I yelled at everyone to just stay put, levered up a round and challenged the fugitives. One looked around, wide-eyed and told his companion, "No, no, NO NO! That old F***** will KILL us!"

Maybe a CAR-15 or a shotgun would have been more impressive to them--I don't know. Maybe it was the combination of the grey head and the antique sound of the lever action. Quien sabe? I won't say everyone lived happily ever after, but all involved DID live.

May you be so pleased with your choice of lever action long arm as I am with mine.

RR

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---The Second Amendment ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights---
 
Rocky Road - Question about your 1950s Mod 94. Do you see much difference between that earlier model 94 and todays in quality,accuracy,etc? I have a chance to procure a 1954 Mod 94. Thanks.
 
RR:
I have both a Win 94 in 30-30, and a Win Trapper in .44 Mag. The .44 is much quicker to cycle than the 30-30. The extractor on the 30-30 has to jump the slight rim of the cartridge. Snap shots with the pistol cal are soooo much quicker.

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CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net
 
Thanks, guys, this input is invaluable.

FYI, old hunting buddy of mine still relies on his 94, made in 1916. It's a standard carbine, with case hardening on the hammer and trigger. After 80 years of use and three owners, it's still tight and accurate. There's truckloads of meat that have been taken with that rifle,and no end in sight.

I've been calling around,and a local gun shop has a almost new model at a reasonable price. I'm not crazy about the crossbolt safety, but as I understand, one doesn't have to use it.

And the sling will be in the traditional place, while I admit the convenience of side mounted swivels, I use the carry strap as a hasty sling,and that works best with a bottom mount.

I find butt cuffs bulky and inconvenient. Later on, it would be nice to get a bullet trap stock from Fajen, or maybe some synthetic stock company would put out a variant of the Speedfeed system to keep that little carbine sleek and bulgeless.

Thanks!!
 
Tom B--
I have often had my older .30-30 on the range at same time as other, later M-94s. We have never done any machine rest comparisons of accuracy, or anything similar.

It has always been my impression that the difference in actual accuracy had to do more with personal preferences of the shooters than with intrinsic accuracy. For instance--My old eyes simply do not have flexibility of focus that younger eyes usually do. Therefore, I do not, cannot, shoot "conventional open sights" anywhere near as well as I can a good set of peep sights. Also, I really prefer (need??) a plain, flat top post on front, and have a hard time shooting tight groups with a bead front--Though this arrangement is deadly quick, and just how tight a group is needed for this type shooting, anyway? No whitetail I know is going to require that your rifle shoot a inch-and-a-half group, as opposed to a three inch group.

The main difference you may see between the old gun and the new is smoothness of the action, and this can always be worked out.

Tom, if I had a chance to get a 1954 M-94, in pretty good shape, for not-too-great a premium--say, 25 pct??--I would probably do so, just for pride of ownership. Also smoothness.

What I would NOT do, and think it would be wrong to do, would be to pay BIG bucks for a pristine, minty example of the breed, and then set about badly compromising the collectors' value. There are only so many 45 year old M-94s left with 95 pct original finish. This rifle might well be worth $600 to a collector today and over $1,000 in three years. What I know for certain is that the smallest alteration from factory standard, the tiniest blotch on the finish, and that "mint" gun is worth half of what it was last week. It would not work one bit better than same year gun with only 50 pct finish, for perhaps $275, or a 1980s gun for 185.


Hal--As I said in my original post, I do believe the pistol caliber lever guns are really fun plinkers and fun guns. Agreed that the .44 can be cycled faster than the .30--Just look at the overall length. I believe, however, that this is
almost always more a function of practice than physical capability.

I would make a modest wager that I can run MY .30-30 faster than you can YOUR .44, so long as we include some real life constraints. Say--Six rounds from slung ready, 50 yards, TXDPS Q target OR some convenient deer sihlouette target, score divided by time (Comstock Count.) Noise making means nothing--hits count. Full power ammo ONLY.

We can each regulate the contest to suit our own strengths, of course. I can insist on 150 yards, and you can insist 15 yards. You can require eight or ten rounds, to where I'd have to reload, and you would not.

Hey--this could be fun. Let me know next time you head southwest and we can go to the range.

But, Hal--You say, "Snap shots with the pistol caliber are sooo much easier." I must disagree. Follow up shots may or may not be easier. The ONE snap shot, from any given position other than shouldered, is a function of practice, stock fit, practice, shooter comfort, practice, eyesight, practice, coordination, and perhaps a bit more practice.

Best regards to all. This is a fun topic.

RR


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---The Second Amendment ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights---
 
OK Folks, you talked me into it, you silver tongued devils you(G)...

Hied myself down to Guns R US and bought this'un. It's practically new, and pre cross bolt safety,whish strikes me as useful as a parachute on a submarine. Trigger's acceptable,and will be better after some judicious polishing,and the action's stiff. A Lyman peep and sling studs complete the pkg. It's on layaway, since I'm retired. A little scrimping will pay it off directly.

I asked the shop man about how old this one is, he stated new enough,and it has a metal follower,not "Tin". Wood's walnut, not birch, and the weapon looks brand new. It may not have ever been fired.

Thanks again...
 
RR:
Actually, for me the choice is a matter of not which is best, but which I am best with. I live in a pretty populated area, and as such, have little chance to shoot the 30-30. In order to shoot any "real rifle calibers", I have to drive an hour each way. This limits my shooting to once in a blue moon. The .44 OTOH, is OK to use at the indoor range, so it gets a lot of use in comparison. The last time ( only a few days ago) I tried to use the 30-30 in a bring a second shot up/snap type of thing, the extractor hung for a split second on the rim of the case. It wasn't much of a big deal, but it did throw things out of whack for a good 2 or 3 seconds. ( Things didn't go smooth, brain kicked in to try to determine why instead of just continuing on). Because I can use the .44 often, it assumes a place as house gun at times. Those little hesitations can have nasty paybacks in a bad sort of way. A present situation demands that all of my guns be as consistant as possible, and in keeping with KISS, my 30-30 does not fall into those guidelines.
re: Your wager.
Sounds fun! Actually I am going to the Southwest next month, but Nevada, not Texas. I don't have any way of timing the shots to be accurate enough to measure. Win or lose, it doesn't matter to me, it does sound like a fun comparison. One of the main reasons I'm here is to learn, so If I learn,,,mission accomplished. Agree this is a fun thread.

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CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net

[This message has been edited by Hal (edited October 24, 1999).]
 
Hal, RR--

Postal Match.

I just learned about these things the other day. 416Rigby brought it up, I think?

Anyway, you start at a pre-determined distance (50 yards makes sense in this case), shooting at a regulated target B-24 silohuette, or whatever... Maybe slow-fire 25 yd pistol target.

Then, from slung on the shoulder muzzle-down, you fire 5 shots at the shout of "Go!" from a man with a stopwatch. At shot 5, the clock stops. Missed target costs you 7 seconds. On-paper off-target is 5 seconds, 1-2 ring is 4 seconds, 3-4 ring is 3 seconds, 5-6 ring is 2 seconds, 7-8 ring is 1 second, 9-X ring costs you no seconds. Whoever can fire 5 shots in the fewest "seconds" wins the match. Photocopy your targets, and mail each other your original, signed by the timekeeper and yourself.

All in fun, and, of course, on your respective honors. :)

Have fun!


BTW, DaveMcC-- Congrats on your new purchase! Sounds like a humdinger! Hope the trigger's good! Try a variety of ammo at 50 and 100 when you get it out, and report on how it shoots for you. If you're reliably hitting paper plates from field positions at 100, you've got a shooter! :)
[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited October 25, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited October 26, 1999).]
 
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